"World of Warcraft: Exploring Azeroth - Kalimdor" Lore and Updates [Spoilers]

[Syegfryed]

Now we finally come to the real problem: Horde fans, yourself included based on everything you've ever written, don't WANT educated Horde races.

i made clearly that i want then educated, by themselves, they are not savages who need the civilized races like blood elves to teach then their own language, this is a bad stereotypical fantasy troop where the "enlightened" teach the barbarians.

All this provides Blizz all the data they need to keep painting the Horde as aggressive lunkheads. Stop demanding ax waving morons and you might actually get intelligence for Horde races. Until then, enjoy what you and a vocal group have demanded for the life of the franchise.

then you agree that blizzard have enough data to keep painting the alliance as good two shoes peacelovers who will get stramrolled by the horde every time, and he moment they would seek revenge, they should seek renew instead?

[Makorus]

i made clearly that i want then educated, by themselves, they are not savages who need the civilized races like blood elves to teach then their own language, this is a bad stereotypical fantasy troop where the "enlightened" teach the barbarians.



then you agree that blizzard have enough data to keep painting the alliance as good two hoes peacelovers who will get stramrolled by the horde every time, and he moment they would seek revenge, they should sek renew instead?

Where the fuck are you getting the "teach them their own language" from?

[Syegfryed]

Where the fuck are you getting the "teach them their own language" from?

The books have Zekhan saying he thanks his reading and writing to lorthemar who taught him, and lorthemar also told him what erosion is..

Knowing the horde official language is orcish, anda as a troll, his main language his zandali(troll), Lorthemar either taught him one or both, which make shit sense.

Like i said before, this whole tidbit in the book would only make sense if lorthemar was teaching him common, to speak with alliance races, since its the main language of the alliance(like orcish is for horde), but the book does not make it like its the case.

[Venziir]

Thank you, and note that I've been advocating for an educated troll character.

@Syegfryed
Now we finally come to the real problem: Horde fans, yourself included based on everything you've ever written, don't WANT educated Horde races.

- Every single attempt to civilize the Horde has been met with lukewarm responses at best and open hostility to the writers at worst.

- Thrall is sneered at as a green human.

- Tauren are shown to be peaceful and slow to anger, only to have demands "Wtf, why can't they be savage and fierce?

- The Horde sets up trade and diplomatic relations with the Alliance, "Boring!"

- Warmongering meathead Garrosh is introduced, orcs are hurled backwards from shamanistic tribes with a code of honor to brainless killing machines again. Fan response? Overwhelmingly positive. To this day, vocal proponents of Garrosh exist.

- Negotiation is sneered at as weakness.

- Suggestions that the Horde should start agriculture and WORK rather than steal resources is met with fan cries of "The mighty Horde TAKES what it wants!"

- BElves are shown as highly educated arcane scholars, and while popular, when they show reluctance to war, which makes a lot of sense considering that education as well as their canonical low numbers, they're scorned as timid, cowards, letting the mighty Horde fight for them.


All this provides Blizz all the data they need to keep painting the Horde as aggressive lunkheads. Stop demanding ax waving morons and you might actually get intelligence for Horde races. Until then, enjoy what you and a vocal group have demanded for the life of the franchise.

Thus the conclusion is crystal clear: the fans shouldn't be listened to in terms of story. Don't like it, don't play it. The Warcraft 3 Horde was something rather unique at the time in terms of fantasy, but loudmouthed players (who'd never played Warcraft 3) wanted the Horde to be the same ol' stereotypical Warhammer/Tolkien'esque monster faction consisting of chaotic evil villains. Sigh. "Change is scawy!"

[Makorus]

The books have Zekhan saying he thanks his reading and writing to lorthemar who taught him, and lorthemar also told him what erosion is..

Knowing the horde official language is orcish, anda as a troll, his main language his zandali(troll), Lorthemar either taught him one or both, which make shit sense.

Like i said before, this whole tidbit in the book would only make sense if lorthemar was teaching him common, to speak with alliance races, since its the main language of the alliance(like orcish is for horde), but the book does not make it like its the case.

Damn, I got some bad news my man.

Illiteracy is not the same thing as not being able to speak a language. When you grow up, you might be able to speak your mother tongue, but you will not be able to speak or write unless taught. In the current day, because the way our education system works, there is a relatively low amount of illiterates, but not even 50 years ago, it looked very different.

He is not being taught how to USE his language. He is being taught how to READ his language and WRITE his language.

Also, once again, you really overestimate how "common knowledge" fucking erosion is lmaooo.

Zekhan is some random orphan of a warrior family. He is also really young. He's not a mage or a warlock who has to rely on reading. Just because there is ONE character who can't read or write doesn't mean every single troll can't read or write.

[Feanoro]

@Syegfryed
And I see as usual, you reject reality in favor of your Horde zealotry, completely glossing over the point to try for a zinger about the Alliance.

Enjoy trying to have your cake and eat it too, see you in MoP 3.0. If you don't understand, ask a Blood Elf to explain it to you.

@mysticx
Exactly. The Horde endgame as written is everyone and everything notHorde is dead. Alliance endgame is the Horde stops massacring them for a while. Horde fans demand that then moan they don't win.

@Venziir
Yep, almost everything that made WC3 interesting was subverting or twisting clichés. Fast forward to today. Orcs are brainless killing machines, night elves are tree hugging hippies, humans are Lawful Stupid, dwarves are shitty comic relief, and the list goes on and on.

[Aresk]

But see, there is the rest of the post that you just ignored about how the horde should have ways of dealing with orphans by now, since is something they would have by the dozens, so Zekhan should not be someone who don't even know what erosion was, even by being shaman.

It seems you're complaining about the very thing you want. The book is literally showing you one Horde member educating an orphan, per what you said the Horde should be able to do, and you are complaining that they're doing it. It really seems your anger is the fact that a blood elf is involved, based on your posts discussing them as somehow separate from the Horde despite them being an integral part of the Horde since the first expansion.

You seem convinced that the writers are trying to paint the Horde as illiterate. Yet the only one I can name with a quick search who is illiterate is Quirox, an orc, who is literally named Quirox the Illiterate, suggesting illiteracy is noteworthy enough to be part of his name. Almost all NPCs we encounter either can read or have no information established about their literacy. I can't recall a single instance where the player goes to hand a note to a quest turn-in and they ask the player character to read it to them because they can't read themselves. Even Drek'thar, who may have been born blind (depending on the source material being referenced), is literate, having authored several books and having compiled a spellbook of stolen Dalaran pages.

[Syegfryed]

@Syegfryed
And I see as usual, you reject reality in favor of your Horde zealotry, completely glossing over the point to try for a zinger about the Alliance.

Sure, i am the one who does that.

Enjoy trying to have your cake and eat it too, see you in MoP 3.0. If you don't understand, ask a Blood Elf to explain it to you.

all right then teldrasill 2.0 it is i guess?

Zekhan is some random orphan of a warrior family. He is also really young. He's not a mage or a warlock who has to rely on reading. Just because there is ONE character who can't read or write doesn't mean every single troll can't read or write.

gonna just ignore the firs part of your post cause you are totally off the charts. You attacking a totally different argument.

the point is why, a troll, need a blood elf, to teach him how to red and write his own language, when other trolls or any orc/turen in orgrimmar could have done that?, saying shamans don't need to red is also bonkers.

- - - Updated - - -

It seems you're complaining about the very thing you want. The book is literally showing you one Horde member educating an orphan.

yes, "a member of the horde educating an orphan" this would be cool, if you didn't take the specifics out of the equation.

Why there is need to be an blood elf, but not any blood elf that had the job to "literate" people, like a proper teacher, but the blood elf leader., who sure as hell have other things to do, to teach an orphan troll how to read and write his own language?

Why the education need to come from "enlighten" race like elves? this parts from the pressupotion that the horde is, indeed a bunch of illiterate savages and the only people who can change then/give then education are elves or undeads, the non-savage part of the horde., and tht is where the critic of bad stereotype against the book come from, because logically, the horde races are old enough to teach their own how to read and write.

Hell darn zandalari joined the horde, could make Talanji teach him, but no.

Like i said before, this entire thing would be fixed, if he was meaning about common language, the alliance main language, but this and other bad take of the book rly make me believe it was not a mistake, but something proposital, like changing Gazloew to a second Gallywix.

[Feanoro]

It seems you're complaining about the very thing you want. The book is literally showing you one Horde member educating an orphan, per what you said the Horde should be able to do, and you are complaining that they're doing it. It really seems your anger is the fact that a blood elf is involved, based on your posts discussing them as somehow separate from the Horde despite them being an integral part of the Horde since the first expansion.

Very kind of him to prove the point in the very next post, isn't it? Not "why doesn't a troll teach a troll?" but rather "why doesn't anyone but an elf teach a troll?"

the point is why, a troll, need a blood elf, to teach him how to red and write his own language, when other trolls or any orc/turen in orgrimmar could have done that?

[Syegfryed]

Very kind of him to prove the point in the very next post, isn't it? Not "why doesn't a troll teach a troll?" but rather "why doesn't anyone but an elf teach a troll?"

my entire point is why a troll didn't teach another troll how to read and write his own language, even used Talanji as example if its needs to be someone important, is aid orcs and taurens because they are more close to him in kalindor and would likely to know troll and orcish more than a blood elf.

you literally have no horse in this race, you are just here to distort things

[Makorus]

my entire point is why a troll didn't teach another troll how to read and write his own language, even used Talanji as example if its needs to be someone important, is aid orcs and taurens because they are more close to him in kalindor and would likely to know troll and orcish more than a blood elf.

you literally have no horse in this race, you are just here to distort things

Why does it matter? What difference does it make whether it's an orc, or a blood elf, or a tauren or a troll? Should there be no orc mage trainers, because the blood elves are the specialists in magic? What a complete non-argument.

Just admit that you are upset that a blood elf taught a troll something and we can move on.

[Syegfryed]

Why does it matter? What difference does it make whether it's an orc, or a blood elf, or a tauren or a troll? Should there be no orc mage trainers, because the blood elves are the specialists in magic? What a complete non-argument.

Just admit that you are upset that a blood elf taught a troll something and we can move on.

if you think a blood elf teaching a troll their own language or orcish is the same as a blood elf teaching an orc or a troll the blood elf arcane ways, just put the the problem further in evidence

And for a matter of fact, while you are trying to create a strawman while aggravating the problem: I have zero problems with blood elves teaching some orcs and some trolls arcane magic, and would go further to say they should have taught the taurens by now. So, no buddy, i have no problem with a blood elf teaching something to other horde races, the problem is what they did in the book, of what they are teaching, that just make no sense..

[Makorus]

if you think a blood elf teaching a troll their own language or orcish is the same as a blood elf teaching an orc or a troll the blood elf arcane ways, just put the the problem further in evidence

And for a matter of fact, while you are trying to create a strawman, while aggravating the problem. i have zero problems with blood elves teaching some orcs and some trolls arcane magic, and would go further to say they should have taught the taurens by now so no buddy, i have no problem with a blood elf teaching something to other horde races, is what they did in the book tht is just nonsense and amke no sense..

Writing and reading is not the same as speaking a language. Do you think illiterate people in real life can't speak at all?

Are you being that thick on purpose or what?

[geco]

Thank you, and note that I've been advocating for an educated troll character.

@Syegfryed
Now we finally come to the real problem: Horde fans, yourself included based on everything you've ever written, don't WANT educated Horde races.

- Every single attempt to civilize the Horde has been met with lukewarm responses at best and open hostility to the writers at worst.

- Thrall is sneered at as a green human.

- Tauren are shown to be peaceful and slow to anger, only to have demands "Wtf, why can't they be savage and fierce?

- The Horde sets up trade and diplomatic relations with the Alliance, "Boring!"

- Warmongering meathead Garrosh is introduced, orcs are hurled backwards from shamanistic tribes with a code of honor to brainless killing machines again. Fan response? Overwhelmingly positive. To this day, vocal proponents of Garrosh exist.

- Negotiation is sneered at as weakness.

- Suggestions that the Horde should start agriculture and WORK rather than steal resources is met with fan cries of "The mighty Horde TAKES what it wants!"

- BElves are shown as highly educated arcane scholars, and while popular, when they show reluctance to war, which makes a lot of sense considering that education as well as their canonical low numbers, they're scorned as timid, cowards, letting the mighty Horde fight for them.


All this provides Blizz all the data they need to keep painting the Horde as aggressive lunkheads. Stop demanding ax waving morons and you might actually get intelligence for Horde races. Until then, enjoy what you and a vocal group have demanded for the life of the franchise.

As I see it when they make the Horde "pacifist" there are one or two assholes who complain on the forums.

When the Horde are violent murderous monsters there are so many complaints that they have to take a cinematic of Varock first to see if they do not set them on fire.

Also the fans get very angry when they make the Horde slaves of the humans. Which is not the same as being pacifists.

________
So it's not the Horde that fans are asking for. It is the Horde that the writers want to write.
Because there are also assholes who complain that the alliance is not a genocidal empire and I don't see that they are ever doing it in the game.

[florclorbromiod]

I give up, but i can help u with ur future. Make a tattoo: imperialist and u never need to write it again, just show a picture with ur tattoo on it.

Or I can just link the canon lore that proves me right. I'm sorry that your purple heroes are just as bad as the Horde they claim is so monstrous.

[Aucald]

As a number of people have pointed out previously, it makes sense to me that Zekhan is likely either illiterate or has low skill when it comes to literacy. The combination of being a member of an exiled and previously itinerate people, a war orphan, and a number of other factors paint a picture of someone who likely lacks a solid education. This isn't to say he's stupid by any means, simply that the luxuries of having a stable civilization that affords a complete education weren't really in the cards for people like Zekhan. Beyond that, it does seem like he's semi-literate, but can't grasp more complex or technical terms and needs some assistance - which, in this case, he seeks from someone who did have the luxury of a more complete education, and is several orders of magnitude older and wiser, like Lor'themar.

I would imagine that literacy in the Horde is likely not very common, as many of the member-races of the Horde shared the Darkspear Trolls history of having previously been itinerate or nomadic, probably with a greater focus on oral traditions as opposed to literary ones (books, scrolls, and such being more difficult to transport and preserve). The Blood Elves, Nightborne, Goblins, and Forsaken probably have the highest literacy rates overall, with a majority of their people having received at least primary-level education as a norm. It is probably lowest among the Orcs, Darkspear, Tauren, and Vulpera - the races with the least tradition of having stable or permanent civilizations. I would wager it's likely variable for the Zandalari, if not high, and similarly for the Pandaren.

[geco]

Or I can just link the canon lore that proves me right. I'm sorry that your purple heroes are just as bad as the Horde they claim is so monstrous.

He fears that the Kaldorei had a rebellion 10,000 years ago against their imperialist side and since then they have completely left the imperialist customs looking for a more "peaceful" way of life where they have corrected the errors of their races and looking for the best for the world.

It's like we're going to blame the Horde for what the Horde did on W2 and W1. (Although it seems that the writers are going to go that way)

[Lorgar Aurelian]

which is again, never the point of the discussion, but you red hearing and focusing on the ranks and who have the higest.

the point was shamans being one of the highest ranks of there people, for trolls that’s not the case which doctors and shadow hunters supplant them, again how ever doesn’t mean no shaman can ever rank highly in a group of trolls.

yeah, they explained how the speech was, but never said they only speka then how to talk, you are bringing another fallacy called jumping to conclusions.

they never said any thing about written word you jumped to conclusions and added that your self.

[DatToffer]

All we do is crap on warcraft's writing & its sharp decline but the instant someone is like 'this bit is sus in a racist way' you all turn into the biggest blizzard simps. Its wild to see on a daily basis.

Funny, I asked myself the same question at some point, because I tend to act like that.

I guess we just want a writing quality that we don't think political correctness can bring. In most minds, political correctness still equals censorship (easy to see with the whole paranoia on cancel culture) and the sole argument of "You can't say that".

To be fair, among those criticisms on racial stereotypes, I didn't see much "They can't say that". I just saw a lot of "This could have been handled/written better". But given how careless editors and publishers can be, people can easily imagine that they'd rather just erase the problematic bits, instead of having it rewritten.

I think people are also high on that "fiction" juice. Like when Blizzard guarantees that no actual irl people are represented in their game, but you see their fictional people being more and more stereotyped.

G@merz will also proudly talk about their awesome ability to separate fiction from reality (that SJW certainly don't have), because this is a debate that looks a lot like "D&D is satanism" and "Shooting games make players violent". So obviously, no one is ready to recognize that video games can perpetuate harmful stereotypes, because the true deranged people are those who would make such a confusion.

And, given that this is all a work of fiction, with the word WAR in it, we want stories of conflicts and cycles of hatred, we want to play the bully or the one who stands against him (and point fingers at the guys who play the opposite on the internet). I guess we just don't want the story to be smoothed out by political correctness, the way we assume it will be. We don't want to read about Flynn signing his reports with XOXO like a 14 years old girl, that's cringe. But being men-children playing with their toy soldiers is not, somehow.

I'll talk for myself here, I want a world of warcraft with a good balance of tragedy, humor, epicness and wholesomeness. And maybe that's why there's this rejection of political correctness, you may think that there will only be humor and wholesomeness left, which would make the story cringe and sappy.

And at this point you can just argue "Well, go watch Steven Universe if you want something wholesome, dumdum. Leave us with our angry warriors who hate each other guts and butcher each other on a battleground with metal music in the background." Except that Warcraft has been more than just that for quite a few years now.

[Loreth88]

Or I can just link the canon lore that proves me right. I'm sorry that your purple heroes are just as bad as the Horde they claim is so monstrous.

Link me then, they are not my heroes, wtf. And just like Geco pointed out, they are to different groups. they are the same physically, but the ideology are different and later the culture to. My point is right they not stole nor conquer Ashenvale, Hyjal etc, they live there because Cenarius welcome them and they help to defend the borders of the new lands what they call home now to.