Hard core raiders don't like the answer: but Blizzard is right about Power Infusion.

[Aphrel]

Problem as always is that blizzard is talking about something they have no experience about.

Farming raids isnt the most interesting thing, but one thing that makes it slightly more interesting is competing on logs.
Its a competition, and currently, its a rigged race because the only one that runs a chance at a high % log is the one getting the pi's.

But since noone at blizzard are playing the game at that level, they don't have a clue. They relate to their own occasional hc pug where the goal is to beat the boss and thats it. So ofc they wouldnt care who got the pi, as long as the boss is dying everyone is happy right? And thats why they come up with an out of the loop response like that, Bobby Kotik style.

The best solution i see is to simply put a filter and split logs into two cathegorys so that ppl who get pi only gets compared to other players who also got pi. And the rest of the players gets compared to the ppl that didnt get it. They are already filtering out certain adds so they might aswell filter this too.

[Ethas]

PI is not even a concern in real top-level play, as the math has already been done on who will benefit from it the most, as that's what benefits the group the most.

PI drama is mostly a mid-tier/lower-tier concern, where everyone thinks they're gods gift to DPS & that they should get it over the other person because they're amazing.

Well in top tier raiding most players are playing at their optimum. Hence the difference in DPS mostly comes from the game balance. In mid tier that’s another story where people might have a little bigger skill spectrum allowing low tier dd outperform top tier dd class. In this case buffing up better skilled player is the most beneficial to the entire group.

[Eazy]

If the boss kills from your guild depend on who and who isn't getting PI, then there's some kind of other problem.

[Trumpcat]

PI is not even a concern in real top-level play, as the math has already been done on who will benefit from it the most, as that's what benefits the group the most.

PI drama is mostly a mid-tier/lower-tier concern, where everyone thinks they're gods gift to DPS & that they should get it over the other person because they're amazing.

This ends the topic, but I'd say that mid/low also contains reasonable players who have common sense, so it's more about good and bad team players.

[Sinaa]

Is there a dps meter that shows tiny PI icons on the dps bars?

[Trumpcat]

...
Blizzard covered that bad argument in their post..

I agree with you, but can you please link the said post? I couldn't find where they talk about PI.

[epigramx]

I agree with you, but can you please link the said post? I couldn't find where they talk about PI.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ngs/1150065/13

[Thestrawman]

If you are truly in a hard core guild you know those things. It's clearly the realm of the not so hard core that care about those things; I've never seen a casual or a top 10 guild whining that their logs ranking isn't god-like.

Being a good player is also about managing those selfish feelings and even the technical naivety (of not knowing giving out those spells takes away from personal logs and gives it to another (and it shows in logs)).

So you admit It's not hard core guilds and that your title is pure bullshit.

So who's "fault" is it then? Maybe the blame should be Blizzard's, ya know, the people who made the spell in the first place?

[M1r4g3]

This is literally only an issue in disorganized guilds and has nothing to do with their skill/rank?

[epigramx]

Problem as always is that blizzard is talking about something they have no experience about.

Wat. The current wow leadership is explicitly the leadership of the Elitist Jerks website (now defunct); that site was the most hard core raiding theorycrafting site the game has ever seen; you were banned for not being on topic or even that interesting within minutes.

The solution you propose is already applied by the way; warcraftlogs coder already puts an asterisk next to rankings that had externals; most people that whine about it and know about this mainly want to fool naive people that they are better than they are.

- - - Updated - - -

If the boss kills from your guild depend on who and who isn't getting PI, then there's some kind of other problem.

Nothing kills a boss on its own; those things work additively. You can even remove Bloodlust from all bosses and still kill them if you were "robotically perfect" but that'd be a stupid decision.

A lot of "0.1%" things make easily a "1%" thing and when you wipe at 0.8% during progress after 100 wipes come and tell us it's "useless" to use minor buffs.

- - - Updated - - -

Is there a dps meter that shows tiny PI icons on the dps bars?

That'd be futile if you want to find "unfairness", since a big crit or two is usually a much bigger determinant of who got "lucky" on logs.

Besides: you can make a weakaura that easily tells you with big letters who got PI.

[Eazy]

Nothing kills a boss on its own; those things work additively. You can even remove Bloodlust from all bosses and still kill them if you were "robotically perfect" but that'd be a stupid decision.

A lot of "0.1%" things make easily a "1%" thing and when you wipe at 0.8% during progress after 100 wipes come and tell us it's "useless" to use minor buffs.

Yes and I totally agree with you on this one.

So people who are on the cutting-edge schedule with the raiding should optimize their raid team... others can do whatever they want.
That's simple.

[epigramx]

So you admit It's not hard core guilds and that your title is pure bullshit.

The title says hard core because even people from top 50 guilds have complaints like that (I know because I heard them saying it).

You can call only the top 10 hard core and that'd be your right but it's definitely subjective.

I definitely call their progress hard core though because the top 50 is a small minority.

[Gaidax]

I think things like PI or Windfury Totem create unnecessary friction in higher end guilds.

The main thing is after the progress is done and you got your Famed there is really little left but to push wcl % and that's where it gets unnecessarily annoying for people.

Like right now, my guild has mounts for all raiders, we're long over with raid and clear mythic full in one 3h raid, there is really no loot to be had anymore - you have raiders missing like odd few pieces that are side grades anyway.

So what else we have but to pump that personal % wcl? 9.2 won't be out for a good 2 months. And this is where PI and such become annoying AF.

That's where the problem lies.

[epigramx]

This is literally only an issue in disorganized guilds and has nothing to do with their skill/rank?

Oh you'd be surprised. It's a constant complaint of people around the top 50 guilds who are objectively a minority and their progress relatively hard core (e.g. easily 10/10m by now).

Selfishness is core in most humans so it's not an easy thing to drop even for people with good skill in gaming.

- - - Updated - - -

I think things like PI or Windfury Totem create unnecessary friction in higher end guilds.

The core point a lot of put across is that avoiding that friction is not unrelated to higher end gaming.

To put it simply: if you are high end: you are also high end at avoiding that friction.

It's a good human trait to have: not be phased by selfishness inside groups.

[Gaidax]

Oh you'd be surprised. It's a constant complaint of people around the top 50 guilds who are objectively a minority and their progress relatively hard core (e.g. easily 10/10m by now).

Selfishness is core in most humans so it's not an easy thing to drop even for people with good skill in gaming.

I actually wonder, are you in such a guild?

Because it sounds to me like you do not understand the issue higher end guilds have with these long AF content patches.

[melzas]

Hilarious how some people consider themselves good at this game and still get salty over who gets PI.

The irony.

[epigramx]

I actually wonder, are you in such a guild?

Because it sounds to me like you do not understand the issue higher end guilds have with these long AF content patches.

If you tell us what I don't understand then maybe we can talk.

[Xalvia]

If you play with other humans: the social tension of "who gets PI" is something you should manage. Or put it another way: if you're such a hard core player and so good: learn to be good at managing social tension too.

the issue on top level is not "the who should get it" but its that disc priests contribute too much damage as a healer and therefore make them mandatory in early progression

[Gaidax]

If you tell us what I don't understand then maybe we can talk.

Here's a simple explanation.

We're w350 2 night guild.

We don't need any more loot, we have all raiders with mounts. So the only thing that remains to keep raiders interested and logging in is exactly that WCL pushing and that is where the issue lies.

We're done with progression for months already, our only remaining "progression" is WCL and that is a personal challenge.

[Thestrawman]

The title says hard core because even people from top 50 guilds have complaints like that (I know because I heard them saying it).

You can call only the top 10 hard core and that'd be your right but it's definitely subjective.

I definitely call their progress hard core though because the top 50 is a small minority.

Okay then. Show me these complaints.