This is very unpopular but there's nothing wrong if Sylvanas ends up being redeemed.

[epigramx]

Its all fine and dandy to play Mr morality when its a strangers life

The other 2 points you make: make sense, but this one is bad. Your lack of ability to adhere to your own values is not an argument; it's just admitting failure; it's hard but it's the right thing sometimes.

[Accendor]

I don't think the entire horde is going to end up walking free. This is still very much a self-contained expansion. Next expansion could show everything back home having gone to shit. Canonically, the Alliance is without a king and Genn has zero reason not to blame the Horde for everything.

Unless they are actually going with the idea that people are capable of walking into Oribos like a vacation and chatting with Jaina and Thrall about the Jailer

I would love to believe that, but its almost certainly not going to happen.

- - - Updated - - -

How can you fail to understand an old movie so bad? You literally see Anakin with the force ghosts of Obi Wan and Yoda at the end. He's clearly been forgiven.

Maybe not by history, but certainly by his family and loved ones.

It is the same as with the Sylvanas storyline - just because the authors tell you he is redeemed, does not mean he actually is. Vaders crimes and Sylvanas are actually quiet similar, so by that logic she would also be redeemed just because she opposed the jailor already.
In other words, of you do not think sylvanas has already been redeemed in 9.1, you can not consider Vader redeemed, no matter if force ghost or not.

[florclorbromiod]

I would love to believe that, but its almost certainly not going to happen.

- - - Updated - - -




It is the same as with the Sylvanas storyline - just because the authors tell you he is redeemed, does not mean he actually is. Vaders crimes and Sylvanas are actually quiet similar, so by that logic she would also be redeemed just because she opposed the jailor already.
In other words, of you do not think sylvanas has already been redeemed in 9.1, you can not consider Vader redeemed, no matter if force ghost or not.

What Vader did is on a scale that makes Sylvanas look like Dr Dooferschmitz.

[sam86]

the vader comment got way too much attention...
regardless what we talk here Sylvannas doesn't deserve redemption not because she crossed a line, but because how bad the story is, she was presented as MORALLY GREY, having her 'ultimate goal' to conquer stormwind (a goal she didn't even know herself one exp earlier), only for next exp to appear she was allied with jailor and her ultimate goal is actually breaking the 'chain', a goal - again - she didn't know or hint about 1 fucking exp earlier, and now we get 2 souls story that appears out of writers' a88 and should be good enough for redeem, it barely works for Uther and Uther - unlike Jaina - almost didn't have any role for years
no, no redemption, total ignorance is best thing possible, let Danasur's waifu be ignored to oblivion

[Triceron]

Nothing wrong with Sylvanas being redeemed, but kinda wish it didn't take 6 years to reach the punchline of this terrible joke.

[Myradin]

What Vader did is on a scale that makes Sylvanas look like Dr Dooferschmitz.

Eh the emperor just wants to conquer one galaxy.

Sylv's boss wanted to conquer the multiverse.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Stop saying this false statement. Attempted genocide requires either intent or success as she neither cared that it was night elves who died nor did she exterminate them. She did not attempt genocide nor succeed at it. The attack was purely military or for souls for the Jailer. It had nothing to do with who she killed hence it was not genocide.

"Purely military" does not exclude genocide.

[Triceron]

It is the same as with the Sylvanas storyline - just because the authors tell you he is redeemed, does not mean he actually is. Vaders crimes and Sylvanas are actually quiet similar, so by that logic she would also be redeemed just because she opposed the jailor already.
In other words, of you do not think sylvanas has already been redeemed in 9.1, you can not consider Vader redeemed, no matter if force ghost or not.

You keep using that word, but I don't think you know what it means.

Vader and Sylvanas are both redeemed because they both reject their former evil ways.

You could say they have not atoned for their sins, or that they have not been forgiven for their past acts, but you can't say they aren't redeemed. Redemption is a self-driven act, not something granted by others. To be redeemed means the individual chose to give up their evil ways. No one 'deserves' to be redeemed. It's a self-driven choice.

If the authors tell you they're redeemed, then they're telling you these fictional characters have made the self-driven choice to give up their evil ways. The authors aren't telling you what they deserve or whether they have atoned or been forgiven for their past evils.

[Kithelle]

Some of the greatest stories ever told are stories of great redemption precisely in the face of most people not believing they can be redeemed. Take Star Wars for example; people loved it also because the heart of the story was the redemption of the most evil person in the galaxy itself; he had murdered millions of people and nobody believed - not even the audience themselves - that he can be redeemed; yet Luke believed in him and he was redeemed and it was glorious.

The thing is, Vader was evil and killed a lot of people...but he lived up to what he was supposed to be. He was the chosen one who brought balance to the force...just unfortunate that it involved wiping out the Jedi and the Sith and many died in the process. Sylvanas isn't some chosen one...she had free will after after she broke free from Arthas. This not herself shit feels like a bad snickers commercial for a cop out not to kill Danuser's (and many others) favorite waifu as opposed to well or even decent written story

[Thestrawman]

You keep using that word, but I don't think you know what it means.

Vader and Sylvanas are both redeemed because they both reject their former evil ways.

You could say they have not atoned for their sins, or that they have not been forgiven for their past acts, but you can't say they aren't redeemed. Redemption is a self-driven act, not something granted by others. To be redeemed means the individual chose to give up their evil ways. No one 'deserves' to be redeemed. It's a self-driven choice.

If the authors tell you they're redeemed, then they're telling you these fictional characters have made the self-driven choice to give up their evil ways. The authors aren't telling you what they deserve or whether they have atoned or been forgiven for their past evils.

See you'd have a point but Sylvanas has rejected nothing. What's happened is Sylvanas showed up, apologized that her evil identical twin has been running around in her place and everything that evil twin did should just be forgotten about.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

You keep using that word, but I don't think you know what it means.

Vader and Sylvanas are both redeemed because they both reject their former evil ways.

You could say they have not atoned for their sins, or that they have not been forgiven for their past acts, but you can't say they aren't redeemed. Redemption is a self-driven act, not something granted by others. To be redeemed means the individual chose to give up their evil ways. No one 'deserves' to be redeemed. It's a self-driven choice.

If the authors tell you they're redeemed, then they're telling you these fictional characters have made the self-driven choice to give up their evil ways. The authors aren't telling you what they deserve or whether they have atoned or been forgiven for their past evils.

Ironically, I think you don't. Sure, maybe you can keep narrowing the scope of what "redemption" means, but that doesn't make it true.

Darth Vader hasn't been Redeemed except in a very specific definition by (Catholic) Theologists. Any other use of the word goes against what you have written. Even if you wanted to FORCE the "sin" aspect, Jesus died for our sins according to Christianity, so yes, it is specifically, in the most famous case, granted by someone else (Jesus, God) Jesus died for all of humanities sins to redeem us in the eyes of God. But wait! Theres more! Even more specifically, only God can forgive and allow redemption, so...

Now that doesn't even begin to broach the other definitions:

Essential Meaning of redemption
1: the act of making something better or more acceptable
the redemption of his reputation
The situation is beyond/past redemption. [=it is too bad to be corrected or improved]
2: the act of exchanging something for money, an award, etc.
stock redemptions
the redemption of coupons
3: Christianity : the act of saving people from sin and evil
the redemption of sinners
: the fact of being saved from sin or evil
a sinner's search for redemption
bad people who are beyond/past redemption [=who cannot be saved]

redemption
[ ri-demp-shuhn ]SHOW IPA


See synonyms for redemption on Thesaurus.com
������ Middle School Level
noun
an act of redeeming or atoning for a fault or mistake, or the state of being redeemed.
deliverance; rescue.
Theology. deliverance from sin; salvation.
atonement for guilt.
repurchase, as of something sold.
paying off, as of a mortgage, bond, or note.

If your definition involves sin: no, Vader cannot grant himself redemption.
Colloquially: No, when people say redeemed, Vader would not be redeemed.
Dictionary definition: specifically mentions reputation, atonement, etc.

On to the remark about the author: In the case of Sylvanas, sure the writers can write whatever they want. No debating that I guess. But that does not make anything here logical, or good writing. Like how long is the High Elf/Void Elf thread? Blizzard wrote it, so its above criticism or questioning, I guess.

About Vader specifically: Pre Disney just being a Force Ghost had nothing to do with "redemption," or being a "good guy." Episodes 4, 5, and 6 were specifically Lukes story. If anything, Anakin was redeemed as a father to Luke and nothing else. He wouldn't haven't been redeemed in the slighted to the dozens of worlds, countless peoples, cultures, etc.

I mean, if John Wayne Gacy hung up his clown outfit and said to himself "thats enough killing John Wayne, can't be bad anymore." ... You'd really call that redeemed in your eyes?

[Triceron]

On to the remark about the author: In the case of Sylvanas, sure the writers can write whatever they want. No debating that I guess. But that does not make anything here logical, or good writing. Like how long is the High Elf/Void Elf thread? Blizzard wrote it, so its above criticism or questioning, I guess.

This is the only thing that matters in discussion.

Canon.

As I said, it's not a question of whether she is redeemed or not. If they authors are literally writing that from their POV and having characters practically treat it as that, then that is what it is.

We can then criticize the poor writing, but there's no questioning its legitimacy. If the authors say so, then it is what it is. We can question the choices of the writers, but the canon does not change just because we don't like it or think it makes no sense. I mean we're already working with a canon that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, doesn't mean we can question whether Sylvanas was really a Warchief or not just because she didn't formally leave the position. Like, if you think about it, she literally just abandoned the Horde, but the position of Warchief technically is still hers under the rules of succession. If anything, the one who truly 'defeated' Sylvanas would be the Jailer, so technically speaking he should be the Warchief of the Horde. Yet we know from the canon that there's simply no Warchief because they say so.

[threads]

like 95% of wow population would be ok with redeemed sylvanas. shes the 2nd or 3rd most popular char in the game.

the people that want sylv to die or something are a tiny amount of forum/redditors that whine about her burning a tree all day.

[Swnem]

Yeah... there is. But, the problem isn't her but rather the one who wrote the storyline. Sylvanas is the consequence and something we associate with it.

Redeemed or not, she needs to disappear from sight sooner rather than later. It's a good idea not to bring her back in any major way too.

[Adamas102]

he went to jedi 'heaven', how the f8ck is that not redemption?

There has been so much retconning of Star Wars lore over the years, but becoming a force ghost definitely isn't "Jedi heaven". It's actually more like purgatory where force users make a conscious decision NOT to have their essence rejoin the Force. Apparently it's a skill than any force user can learn but it can also happen after making a final act of self sacrifice (Vader could fit both parameters). That being said, I don't think Vader sacrificing himself JUST to save his son redeems him of all the terrible atrocities he committed against countless other people. The fact that he did nothing for the greater good that would make anyone other than Luke think differently of him makes for a pretty piss poor redemption arc if that's what they were really going for.

[Varodoc]

How can you fail to understand an old movie so bad? You literally see Anakin with the force ghosts of Obi Wan and Yoda at the end. He's clearly been forgiven.

Maybe not by history, but certainly by his family and loved ones.

Anakin could split into 10 ghosts each with a halo and angel wings for all I care, he still wouldn't be redeemed in my eyes.

The guy literally slaughtered children in cold blood and with no remorse, then oversaw the destruction of an entire planet (mundicide).

[Rucati]

I don't really remember which one Sylvanas is, but I mean redemption stories are usually pretty cool, so I see no reason why they can't go this route. I mean we killed Kael'thas in Tempest Keep and now he's a good guy or something I think, so clearly he's been redeemed. Seems reasonable they could do it again.

[Statius]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but there are two vital differences between Sylvanas and Darth Vader and that is character development and consistent plot.

Despite everything he had done, Darth Vader made an actual choice to kill the Emperor and save his son. And though it might seem as if it came out of nowhere, it actually didn't. In fact, many times throughout Return of the Jedi Luke talks to both Obi Wan, Yoda and Leah about how his father is not beyond redemption, how there is still good in him and how he can be turned back to the good side. And then when Luke and Vader actually meet, Luke tries just that and in the end he ultimately succeeds, which not only means that Anakin Skywalker is redeemed but also that his son has accomplished something that both Yoda and Obi Wan thought was impossible.

But while Darth Vader undergoes an actual development, coming face to face with what he's done and thus grows as an individual, Sylvanas does not. And indeed how could she? It wasn't her fault. From the moment she rose as Undead, she was being if not outright controlled, then as good as controlled, by someone who, unlike the Emperor, we only hear about two minutes before curtain call. She wasn't responsible for developing the plague, invading Gilneas, killing her own citizens or even burning down Teldrassil.

So in the end, Sylvanas cannot be redeemed because at the end of the day Sylvanas is not truly responsible for anything. She's just a victim and the story that we're seeing unfolding now is actually not one of redemption, but rather one of liberation, of her breaking free of the bonds of her own literal jailor. These are the logical conclusions of everything we've seen thus far in the plot and visually that is exactly what the recent Sylvanas cinematic seems to suggest. And yet, if you look at the actual dialogue, then weirdly enough it is all about Sylvanas taking responsibility for her actions and what's even weirder is that the one who is called upon to take said responsibility is the very same ranger general who has only just re-entered her body, after having been stuck God knows where for God knows how long.

No, if Sylvanas was to be like Darth Vader - and if this was to be an actual redemption story - the whole split soul wouldn't exist. Rather, she would simply make the choice to go against the jailor - to return to the side of good - and then that'd be that. And, of course, like Darth Vader there would have to be some kind of individual who might lure her back to good, preferably a member of her own family, like Alleria or Varessa. Regardless, she would have to go through an actual development and realize that she's wrong and then choose to rebel against the jailor and side with the forces of good.

Now I suspect this might actually have been the story that Blizzard initially wanted to tell. Why? Because in a way they actually have told parts of this story. You see her rebel against the Jailor (though admittedly a bit less successfully than Vader rebelled against the Emperor), but unlike Vader, we have no idea why she did it, except for the fact that she "will never serve" which is insane because all she's been doing up until that point is serving. Yes, there has been some foreshadowing, again five minutes before curtain call, with her not being all together okay with dominating Anduin, which again is quite bizarre considering how she had no problem torching an entire world tree, killing elves by the thousands, but beyond that she has shown no issue whatsoever serving the very being who is ultimately responsible for her death and the destruction of her homeland.

Suffice to say, I think what happened was that Blizzard saw the backlash to Sylvanas actions back in BFA and then realizing that players might not be okay with her just having a change of heart and then being all "Drae... Shadowlands are free!", introduced the idea of soulsplitting as a kind of cop out, in order to justify her redemption arc. But, of course, they've screwed it up, and now they're trying to eat their cake and have it at the same time, giving us half a redemption arc and half an arc of liberation. And so what we're left with is her kinda having to take responsibility for things that she kinda isn't really responsible for in order to kinda make it seem like she's kinda having a change of heart, while at the same time kinda not changing because of any meaningful choice, but only because of a deus ex machina plot device, leading to a character that at the end of the day kinda doesn't make very much sense at all.

And that's just taking the story at face value and pointing out inconsistencies. That's not even going into the detail of whether or not any of this is actually good storytelling or whether or not it was a good idea to take a genuinely strong female character, who has been a fan favorite for twenty years, and then retroactively strip her of all agency in order to prop up a guy that no one ever heard about (but who is now supposedly behind everything, the Lich King, Sargeras, ect.) only to have that very same guy defeated in an expansion that arguably has about as little content as WoD.

Edit: Also, and this is just a matter of taste, but I prefered Sylvanas when she behaved the way she did because of what she'd gone through and how the world viewed her - as a monster. That was a perfectly acceptable story which I suspect resonated with a lot of people. Remember when in Warcraft 3 she said, "We will find our path in this world and slaughter anyone who stands in our way" or when, being offered to ally herself with the dreadlords, she replied "I've lived as a slave long enough. I won't relinquish my freedom by shackling myself to you fools!"

Yeah, that's the Sylvanas I loved, the ruthless and clever bastard who was all about independence and doing your own thing, yet at the same time not completely void of all sensibility. Come to think of it, of all the candidates for "oh but she was actually being controlled by this evil super villian all along", Sylvanas would probably have been my last choice.

Edit 2: Another vital difference between Vader and Sylvanas is Luke. Luke believes Vader can be redeemed and thus when Vader is actually redeemed we can believe it, because Luke has believed in it and we've seen the story unfold from his point of view. If at the end of the Return of the Jedi, without any prior talk of redemption or of how Vader can be redeemed, Vader just kills the emperor (or in WoW terms throws half a droid at the emperor saying "I will never serve any emperor") yeah I'd imagine quite a few people would have had some problems with that...

[shise]

Theres nothing wrong with redemption if you set the story in a way that ends up making sense.

I keep hearing people claiming that the story doesn´t make sense but, to be honest, none yet explained why.
Is it because they do not like it, so it doesn´t make sense? or is there an actual reason?

I have not been a fan either, but you have to admit, that they have nailed it with Sylvanas.... at the very end only tho. It makes sense, we knew that she was not herself ever since that "mysterious dark magic" had seemely taken over her. It also makes sense that only now she "wakes up" inside of herslef... it would always take a shick event for this to happen... such as her own defeat at the peak of this power.

Now it is up to her to find that inner redemption and to battle her corrupted version. A version that was decaying ever since Arthas pierced her.

It is simply good.

[Khaza-R]

I keep hearing people claiming that the story doesn´t make sense but, to be honest, none yet explained why.
Is it because they do not like it, so it doesn´t make sense? or is there an actual reason?

I have not been a fan either, but you have to admit, that they have nailed it with Sylvanas.... at the very end only tho. It makes sense, we knew that she was not herself ever since that "mysterious dark magic" had seemely taken over her. It also makes sense that only now she "wakes up" inside of herslef... it would always take a shick event for this to happen... such as her own defeat at the peak of this power.

Now it is up to her to find that inner redemption and to battle her corrupted version. A version that was decaying ever since Arthas pierced her.

It is simply good.

The thing is she wasn't not herself when her magic Jailer powers first appeared. According to the new lore she's been "not herself" since chapter 5 of the undead campaign in WC3.