[Spoiler]So....giant red ball which broke arbiter is....

[Gorsameth]

I could see the First Ones having made Azeroth more powerful by like pouring their essence into her?

That would explain why all the cosmic powers are so interested in what is essential a middle manager in the cosmic hierarchy. Assuming Titans and Eternal Ones are roughly as powerful/important as one another.

Azeroth used to be important because she is the last nascent Titan soul. Every other one was destroyed by Sargeras and the Burning Legion.
That is why the Legion is so damn interested in the planet. Its their only remaining objective

[GreenJesus]

Yeah it was freaking obvious....

It was less fan theory and more like common sense.

Blizz said the wheel of death broke during legion. We know that ursoc was sent to ardenweald after we defeated him in nightmare.

So now we know it wasn't at the start of legion.

So now what significant cosmic events happen during the rest of legion.

We defeat Gildane and revive illidan, okay cool story.

We defeat kiljaede, again nothing worthy of breaking the arbitor.

Then we fight a freaking DEATH TITAN. Not only that, but we learn that the nathrezime we're actually loyal to death and not the legion.

This means that argus was most like twisted for eons by the highest ranking members of the legion and then aimed at the arbitor upon his death by our hands.

Also keep in mind sylvanas was also in league with the jailor and she was all in for the legions defeat.

And ultimately the energy that hit the arbitor was very similar to the red energy that argus exhibited.


So again, this was extremely obvious to anyone who payed attention.

So you are saying the entire thousands of years plan of the Nathrezim hinged on a band of adventures defeating a titan in the home base of the burning legion after Illidan opened a portal after defeating Gildan? How do they plan for that with how many different variables are involved.

[Wonderment2]

Azeroth used to be important because she is the last nascent Titan soul. Every other one was destroyed by Sargeras and the Burning Legion.
That is why the Legion is so damn interested in the planet. Its their only remaining objective

Sure...but she's central to the Jailer as well. So far only Light and Life haven't actively fought to control her.

My point more is i can see Blizzard claiming she's a first one or first one empowered to explain why she's so OP.

[Ringthane]

Is this not what everyone thought it was to begin with?

[Super Dickmann]

Azeroth used to be important because she is the last nascent Titan soul. Every other one was destroyed by Sargeras and the Burning Legion.
That is why the Legion is so damn interested in the planet. Its their only remaining objective

It's Sargeras's objective because it's the Void Lords' objective since if even one (1) world soul is corrupted it can be used to destroy the universe. Out of all the problems of this plot, the Bald Man using Azeroth as fuel because it's powerful enough to remake the world into an fantasy where impossible things like him actually being an interesting characer are possible is entirely in keeping with prior lore. Hell, Sargeras himself vascillated between penetrating the planet with one sword or the other.

[Atrea]

Calling it now, this is misinterpreted and the "red ball which broke the arbiter" is not Argus.

[Garretdejiko]

Its really complicated, I think we need professional opinion on the matter.

Lets ask David Lynch!

"No, I won't explain it"

[Magnagarde]

The First Ones just being what the Shadowlands dwellers call the Titans would solve an uncountable amount of plot problems and create both visual and story continuity, requiring much less work than making them their own thing. Thus, same as with how cutting most of the Bald Man's unnecessary connections to prior material, the writers won't do it.

I'm hoping that this is the route that they'll take. It is the only thing that can make me look at the lore in a decently serious way again.

Instead of calling him deceptively cunning, I'd have a much easier time accepting a description like.. unbelievably lucky. At least that isn't a foreign concept; he simply had luck.

[Elbob]

So you are saying the entire thousands of years plan of the Nathrezim hinged on a band of adventures defeating a titan in the home base of the burning legion after Illidan opened a portal after defeating Gildan? How do they plan for that with how many different variables are involved.

I really dont want to be seen as defending this awful lore but its possible just his birth could eventually result in death systems breaking and us beating him had the same result but sooner. We still really dont know the purpose of breaking the death systems (beyond more souls going to the maw) because we dont really know what the jailer is doing with how awful this writing is. Its pretty clear there was another intended patch that would explain things but instead they squished too much into 9.1

[Khaza-R]

Ah yes just NOW it has become inconsistent.....yupp let's not pretend Metzen and his egotistical Twitter and Blizzcon rants to just get cool points because he was probably beat up in school had somehow been consistent....oh wait they weren't.

Lore was always inconsistent. But it was mild compare to what it is now. Like forgetting a character existed. Modern lore just doesn't even seem to care. Its basically like "oh well, deal with it".

[qwerty123456]

The same way he knew the Heroes would stop N'Zoth from corrupting and taking control of the World Soul.

Plot armour and Asspulls.

I don't think her being corrupted would matter as long as she still had enough lifeforce or what ever he could use to wipeout the universe.

It is funny how well connected Zovaal is to the knowledge of the universe when the other Eternal Ones aside from Denathrius are almost completely oblivious to wtf is going on.

[october breeze]

It's almost like they never had any idea of what it was themselves to begin with and only came up with it being Argus after stalking around fan forums. This expac can't end soon enough.

Assume this xpac ends right now, what makes you think next one will be any better?
With current team, you will get same shit as bfa and sl.

[Varx]

So you are saying the entire thousands of years plan of the Nathrezim hinged on a band of adventures defeating a titan in the home base of the burning legion after Illidan opened a portal after defeating Gildan? How do they plan for that with how many different variables are involved.

No not particularly hinged in our actions. Whether there was another contingency, or the DL taking advantage of our Victory the plan is still the same.

Use argus' essence on the arbitor. It's not hard to grasp

[Wonderment2]

No not particularly hinged in our actions. Whether there was another contingency, or the DL taking advantage of our Victory the plan is still the same.

Use argus' essence on the arbitor. It's not hard to grasp

If Zovaal didn't directly plan the Argus outcome seems odd he start escalating his plans before it happened? (placing Slyvannas on the throne).

That or two incredible opportunities vital to his plan happened in short order. Ie a Warchief dying (who could be easily manipulated by you based on his faith) so your minion can take his place and start a war AS WELL AS the arbiter braking.

So ethier Zovaal is the greatest strategist ever or got incredibly lucky he could position his minions to ramp the death count exactly as those souls would come to him...

[Steelangel]

The Dreadlords working for Zovaal and corrupting Sargeras for him and then aiding him in his mission makes no sense when Sargeras's mission was the destroy all the nascent world souls to stop them from being corrupted by the void.
If Sargeras ever won and destroyed Azeroth Zovaal can't use the Machine of Origination anymore.

With the dreadlords working to "further" Sargeras's plan, it was never going to succeed.

[Coniferous]

Sargaeras has been planet sized since they introduced him. As are all Titans. So the coherent story stopped in Warcraft 2? lol

I’m pretty sure he wasn’t other than one piece of concept art that they should have retconned as soon as it was apparent he was gonna be a villain in game.

[Selah]

I mean, Titans are born in the same plane as mortals, as the souls of entire worlds. And many of the mortal races were created by the Titans, besides. Even Ysera and the Wild Gods go to the Shadowlands when they die, not the plane of life.

Basically, the Shadowlands seem to be the final destination for any lifeform born in reality.

I don't think it's just as simple as being affiliated with one cosmic force, or even that force's pantheon, go to the equivalent plane when they die.

And when you think about it, life and death are connected as part of a cycle. Titans would probably seek to maintain that natural order.

If there is a plane of order, it's probably not where they go to die, but rather a place that has a special function in maintaining the natural order of the cosmos.


Edit: Also, demons don't really have their own afterlife. They're born of the Twisting Nether, if they die in another plane their souls return to the Twisting Nether and slowly reconstitute. When they die for real, in the Nether or a place steeped in enough fel to behave like the Nether, their anima becomes dispersed into the Nether and eventually becomes material from which new demons are born. Basically the same process as Elementals.

I don't even think it's confirmed that the Twisting Nether and the Burning Legion are the proper plane and pantheon of Disorder. I've already made this prediction before, but given the emphasis they're putting on WoW having a "fractal cosmology," I'm gonna guess that Zovaal and Sargeras are to the true pantheon of Chaos as Arthas and Illidan were to the Burning Legion.

Okay, but the problem is (and this is to demonstrate the issues with the lore) Ysera was of Elune, not of life. Unless Elune is of life somehow (and it is a possibility but there's been nothing to confirm this in any way) then Ysera was of something else entirely. And, to my knowledge, she was the only dragon we've found in the Shadowlands. Surely Neltharion would also be there somewhere right? Unless he was absolutely corrupted by void to the point where his soul was sent to wherever Old Gods go.

I should also point out, Wild Gods have some sort of deal arranged with the Winter Queen where they regrow in the pods after they die until they're ready to return to the material plane

their anima becomes dispersed into the Nether and eventually becomes material from which new demons are born. Basically the same process as Elementals.

Could I ask where that's discussed? I think I missed that info.

Anyways, all my points here aren't designed to be contrary but to show how nothing here makes sense. The mechanics of which the laws of the universe are suppose to abide by are constantly broken and rehashed time and time again, there is no consistency. So, sentient being X dies, and will go to either the shadowlands, or maybe they go straight to Ardenweld, or maybe they go to the Twisting Nether, or maybe they go somewhere else depending on a host of different rules that only apply in very niche circumstances that seemingly contradict the lore of the universe.

Another thing I want to point out. Remember in Icecrown when the paladin dies and the Naaru are there and they promise to deliver his soul? What about that? Is there a seperate afterlife for those who follow the light? If so, why is Uther in the Shadowlands? If not, what was the deal with that? It's just maddening.

[Jastall]

I'm hoping that this is the route that they'll take. It is the only thing that can make me look at the lore in a decently serious way again.

Instead of calling him deceptively cunning, I'd have a much easier time accepting a description like.. unbelievably lucky. At least that isn't a foreign concept; he simply had luck.

Zovaal being a ruthless opportunist rather than this 69D chess super-mega-mastermind they're setting him up as already makes him more interesting, doesn't make him step on the toes of previous characters, and generally makes his role in the plot more digestible. So of course the writers who think they perpetually need to escalate everything into meaninglessness won't go towards this route.

[Kathranis]

Could I ask where that's discussed? I think I missed that info.

It would have been an interview or something around when SL was announced, don't remember which. But basically demons and elementals work the same way; if they're killed outside of their "plane" then their soul returns to their plane and reconstitutes over time. If they're killed within their plane than they die for real, and their soul breaks down into the base materials of creation again and may eventually become part of a new, different being. And that's essentially how anima works in the Shadowlands, too.

The Paladin in Northrend is an extremely rare example of someone's soul being taken to the realm of Light. But that whole questline was also made in tribute to a real person who died, so it's a special case I wouldn't necessarily expect to see repeated.

[Felrane]

I’m pretty sure he wasn’t other than one piece of concept art that they should have retconned as soon as it was apparent he was gonna be a villain in game.

I dont see how his size would have matter. All the titans are massive, Aman'Thul ripped out Y'Shaarj from the planet like a zit. We have known they were massive for years. Having us fight him seems like it wont happen for awhile if ever. Hopefully never.. we shouldn't even be fighting the Jailer if he is *supposedly* the same or higher powerlevel. Hopefully 9.2 will have a good reason for how we even defeated him thats not another macguffin. (Its going to be a macguffin because Blizzard cant write).

As far as the picture you are talking about the earliest one I can find was the 2004 one where his sword is slammed into a planet with Dragons flying around him smaller then his fingers. So he has always been a big boy either way.