What do you think of Steve Danuser's lore work as Lead Narrative Designer?

[Cherry123]

I will say that World of Warcraft has never had a good storyline, it looked cool in 2011 but looks awfully stupid in 2021. The game does not meet the requirements of the current year.

[Kathranis]

The overarching narrative has gone off the rails since the conclusion of Legion. I'm not gonna lay that entirely on Danuser but the entire "Sylvanas arc" has been poorly constructed.

That said, I think the general worldbuilding and the individual zone stories in BFA and SL were very strong. It's really just the overarching narrative of Sylvanas's rise and fall that has been pretty fucking terrible.

[Darkeon]

There's literally no debating with you is there lol.

If you're interested in WoW in general, you're still going to be presented with the story, to which you can be indifferent on. The fact that this is in the lore forum isn't some "gotcha" moment like you think it is, it's just where it happened to be created and it does fit. Anyone who browses the forums in general can see this thread due to its activity on the front page.

Your weird hate for Danuser is beyond me, but just because people are indifferent about him doesn't mean you should throw your hate for him at them, as you are. You don't accomplish anything by doing...whatever is it you're attempting to do. I'm allowed to be indifferent about him while realizing the story was always a trainwreck waiting to happen. It's reasonable to also point that out.

What's weird is to try to take that statement and claim that there's some ulterior motive to it. If I thought the guy was a good writer, I'd say it. Indifference draws the same ire as enjoying him so why would I bother to try to mask that as you're claiming?

In short, jesus man you're taking this far too personal. Pointing out opinion based polls should always have an indifferent/neutral choice isn't some hot take that you think it is.

Why would I want to debate with someone who accused me of Trolling n Baiting a couple posts earlier?

I'd rather just point out how defensive you are about a thread criticizing a bad writer.

[Varolyn]

Mediocre to bad. His narrative style pretty much fully relies on getting an immediate reaction from the audience, but in doing so his narratives end up being quite shallow. Seems to think "subverting expectations" makes for interesting narratives which is not always the case, especially when it comes at the cost of hurting character development. Also did a very poor job building up the Jailer as the big villain of the Shadowlands. There were so many better ways to handle the origins of that character, rather than just taking the lazy route and making him Sargeras. Shoehorning the fact that he had a "plan" since like the events of Warcraft 1 made things even worse.

[Jester Joe]

Why would I want to debate with someone who accused me of Trolling n Baiting a couple posts earlier?

I'd rather just point out how defensive you are about a thread criticizing a bad writer.

I point out using the term "cope" is lowbait meme, and now you're claiming that's why you won't acknowledge anything? Pretty clear who's being defensive here lol.
Even more weird that you're the one who made this personal and now you're trying to claim one of us is being defensive.

[DingDongKing]

Pointless discussion No.32456. Blizzard isn't some startup where he has full creative control over the thing.

It's not worth simply blaming him or rewarding him.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

I enjoy his trolling of people. Also, the fact people continue to misblame stories written by He who has been fired for naughty touching for Danuser probably makes him giggle a little bit.

[Nzx]

I couldn't care less and neither could most of the people who constantly whine about him on this forum, really. Once the circlejerk moves on to something else, so will they, because the 95%+ majority of people who play this game ticked "Instant Quest Text" the second their friend told them about the option and haven't read a single one since.

[Soon-TM]

I couldn't care less and neither could most of the people who constantly whine about him on this forum, really. Once the circlejerk moves on to something else, so will they, because the 95%+ majority of people who play this game ticked "Instant Quest Text" the second their friend told them about the option and haven't read a single one since.

And what business would such people have in a lore (sub)forum, care to explain? Such a transparent strawman.

BTW, I want to see your sources for that >95 %... I'd hate to think that some people love to post random numbers on the internet, freshly pulled out of their rear.

[Syegfryed]

The lore was always this bad and messy, that's the point. To act as if it's suddenly "awful these days" is weird because this is because the only difference now is trying to wrap all of the story together, instead of letting them be told as if they were all completely different stories that were irrelevant to each other.

saying that the lore was always this messy is being compltely oblivious ot what is happening or straight up ignoring things to git the argument

the lore before never needed to copy paste an old expansion before, that already disprove this argument.

fuck, this was the same expansion they brought Jaina brother from the death, after he burned to ashes and sink in the ocean for 30 years, where nothing would remains, this is just fucked up

The only thing about her that made sense after her death was her fixation on killing Arthas. That's literally it.

And how the Janitor enter in this, if apparently, everyone had the same goal

It does make more sense than just having her be insane and still leaving her as a leader while knowing she's literally insane. Again, it's not compelling, but it DOES make sense. You seem to be mixing the two together, thinking that it has to be compelling to make sense.

except she wasn't? she was protecting the forsaken because she didn't want to die and suffer eternal damation? that was her whole point after the Lich king is dead? she saw her fate and saw forsaken sharing the same? the whole bit about the forsaken not being mroe arrows in he quiver but shields against the death?

that does not make sense but retconing the old lore and shoving a bald man makes more sense?

They didn't copy MoP, because if they did they would have had an enjoyable story. And if you think a faction war is "copying MoP", you're overgeneralizing. The best thing to come out of BfA was the Pride of Kul'Tiras questline anyway.

yeah no, they did copied MOP but Danuser is so awful that not even with a recipe he did a good job., and their reasoning fo "we didn't tell before what we wanted, but now we will" was compltely obnoxious.

And no, there wasn't a foundation, because as I pointed out several times, never did the stories actually connect until recently. For example, after leaving Cataclysm, nothing mattered about it aside from that the aftermath revealed Pandaria.

stories don't need to connect to have foundations, you can have different stories in a big world, is how things happen

you talk like things matter now when we see BfA meaning jack shit to the overall lore and the status quo of the factions regressing to the same it was pre-cata, the expansion was so bad that reverted what happened in 3 expansions.

There's still massive destruction and issues that were unresolved from Cataclysm, but suddenly it's WHO CARES, PANDAS! But then down in BfA, it actually tied back to the events of MoP and Cataclysm through the titan facilities to stop N'zoth. Which was actually pretty good to do. I mean, one of the common complaints I used to see around these forums was how Blizzard would just leave behind things after an expansion, how characters went forgotten, etc. Now they're actually trying to fix that it seems.

ah yes, just like the BIG GIANT SWORD SHOVED IN THE EARTH WAS RESOLVED, teldrasill burning, the catapults and all ayyyy lmao.

The issues of cataclysm didn't need to resolved, it means shit to us as we see things in the eyes of the factions, leaving things like this open, open options for new expansions, instead of this half-asset stories following a npc that everybody hate, like this is some sort of solo single player videogame.

We are "following sylvanas story" like it was supposed to be Kratos or Link story,

- - - Updated - - -

In the Legion book she explained everything she did was "to provide a future for the children of the horde" that's fitting. "If the Alliance aren't driven out of Kalimdor, the Horde will be destroyed" was a rational argument: Unfortunately the devs apparently never read Golden's book. And even then doesn't that make her actions noble? It makes sense if she believes everyone's going to the maw unless she helps the jailer, but now that doesn't even line up anymore. She must apologize for...trying to make a future for Horde Children....?

And everyone go to the janitor anyway,a nd she knew since wtlk, it wa sher plan all along, because yes.

When you realize Sylvanas never asked to be resurrected, it adds all this complexity to her relationship to the Jailer. Like, did she want the lamp so she could actually have some agency over the Jailer? If those valkyr answered to her instead of the jailer that would allow her to circumvent the maw completely. But that doesn't work with the "banshee" archetype so it was ignored.

The valkyr was to bolster the numbers of the forsaken, because she was running low of valkyr, so, not being able to come back from the dead, i don't think she could hve any agency towards the janitor with that, even so because he didn't existed yet.

Apparently Muezala's plan all along. Clearly the Jailers minions are not all on the same page.

No, apparently that was her plan also, all along, she knew it, but she in the book didn't, thus, showing how disconnected and fucked up the lore was being.

It often feels like they had created a morally grey character, but they preferred to think of her as a one-dimensional villain, and even then this soul stone crap throws it all away.

the thing is, there was already a plot going on before, she being "morally grey" by not wanting to die, and suffer eternal dammation, but they ruined the plot when decided to put her as warchief..

Then we began the flip flop of morally gray, one-dimennsional-evil, evil conflicted and now "wanting to do the right thing" to redemption.

[Kakyoin]

I made an account to post just to express how much I think Danuser has ruined Warcraft forever.

[Syegfryed]

I like that when i went to sleep it was 90 that didn't like and 9 that did

[Felrane]

Zone stories have been fine for the most part. I always enjoy the questing zones its the end game storylines that have been total garbage. Id say it started with Legion we worked so hard to collect all the pillers of creation. They would allow no portals into Azeroth which would make the legion have to physically travel to Azeroth which they have no idea where its at. Illidan helps us place one of them and we have a whole raid to place them in the Tomb of Sargaras and we finally close the portal chasing Kil'jaeden who is the current leader of the Legion. We kill him and return home closing the gateway. Then Illidan for no reason rips open a huge portal to Argus and forces us to take the Legion on. While it all worked out in the end if it hadn't we would all be dead. If Sargaras wasn't so intent on banging Azeroth we would have all instantly died when the portal opened. Sargaras still almost killed the planet in a last ditch effort.

BFA actually had alot of set up storylines that hopefully Blizz will explore like the creatures from Draenor that escaped into the Barrens. All the factions gaining power from the Azerite. Ragnaros being reborn. Twilight Dragons deep in the earth with Sinestra still being alive. ect.. ect... They instead just abandon the whole War for Azerite to waste both Azshara and N'zoth to a macguffin. BTW we broke the Forge of Orgination in Cata that was the whole storyline in Uldum we had to stop the forces of Deathwing from using it themselves. Yet its magically fixed and ready to fire! No build up or story as to why other then some random Tol'vir (woke up) and rebuilt(found) some of the keepers of Uldum.

Now with Shadowlands we have been told nothing. The First Ones that were never mentioned EVER in the Warcraft Universe are actually the ones that Made everything! The old Lore of Light and Void crashing together to create the big boom no longer really a thing. The chronicles are just Titan perspective... so why bother making them in the first place.

The Arbiter crashes and goes down. Then dies to the Jailer and we dont care because she was just there with no story. The Jailor was behind everything in Warcraft! Yet we have never heard of him, zero build up other then 2 questlines(BFA) that kept him super vague could have been anyone. We never found out who saved Vol'jin either and he is currently being reborn as a Loa. Then they just strait up ruined old characters. The friendship between Kel'thuzad and Arthas was all an act! Even though he supported him in everything he did. Went out of his way to save him. Supported him through both wars ect... Sylvanas has been playing 4d chess that even her internal monologues in the books are wrong! She was always working with the Jailer!!!! All of the Undead campaign in Warcraft 3 is dumb. 3 groups of the Jailers forces all fighting each other. Sylvanas killing all the Dreadlords off and taking over Lordaeron. Varimathras betryal makes 0 sense, why would he try to summon Sargaras when the Lichking was going for his bid of total Domination of the Planet. Why does Mal'ganis and the other dreadlords take over the Scarlet crusade. They spent years fighting the Undead and against Sylvanas when they were supposedly allies??? Its a GD mess. Add in the Domination runes on Sargars gear makes it seem like he is influenced by the Jailer as well which makes his character even dumber.

The First Ones created a Machine that literally prints out gods and realities in the Shadowlands. It also seems to have the power to wipe out all other realities for reasons? Another Macguffin storyline is going to have to happen because the Jailer is more powerful then a Titan atm and with a wave of his hand Dominated the most powerful people on the Planet. Its all just so bad.

[Jester Joe]

saying that the lore was always this messy is being compltely oblivious ot what is happening or straight up ignoring things to git the argument

It's not, again, I point to TBC wasting characters just to fill villain roles.

Or the Lich King's entire behavior despite the fact that he could have killed us at any point, that he was "waiting" to test us.

the lore before never needed to copy paste an old expansion before, that already disprove this argument.

They haven't copy and pasted an old expansion.

fuck, this was the same expansion they brought Jaina brother from the death, after he burned to ashes and sink in the ocean for 30 years, where nothing would remains, this is just fucked up

Just like Sylvanas should be a rotting corpse but she's magically not?

And how the Janitor enter in this, if apparently, everyone had the same goal

No one had the same goal, it's about the Jailer piggybacking off of other plans.

except she wasn't? she was protecting the forsaken because she didn't want to die and suffer eternal damation? that was her whole point after the Lich king is dead? she saw her fate and saw forsaken sharing the same? the whole bit about the forsaken not being mroe arrows in he quiver but shields against the death?

She used them to shield herself more than anything. And that doesn't change the fact that she kept flip/flopping nonstop on her objective since Wrath.

yeah no, they did copied MOP but Danuser is so awful that not even with a recipe he did a good job., and their reasoning fo "we didn't tell before what we wanted, but now we will" was compltely obnoxious.

They didn't copy MoP. MoP barely had anything to actually do with the faction conflict and more to do with Pandaria itself. The most "conflict" that happened in MoP was the patch that added the dailies in the forest, but it barely mattered past that with the end of the result there being "Wow, Garrosh is crazy" from the Horde.

Sylvanas still had the support of the Horde up to Saurfang's challenge.

stories don't need to connect to have foundations, you can have different stories in a big world, is how things happen

And then you end up with a puzzle that doesn't fit together. There's a reason why the story of FFXIV is praised more.

ah yes, just like the BIG GIANT SWORD SHOVED IN THE EARTH WAS RESOLVED, teldrasill burning, the catapults and all ayyyy lmao.

The issues of cataclysm didn't need to resolved, it means shit to us as we see things in the eyes of the factions, leaving things like this open, open options for new expansions, instead of this half-asset stories following a npc that everybody hate, like this is some sort of solo single player videogame.

We are "following sylvanas story" like it was supposed to be Kratos or Link story,

I never said it was resolved. I said it wasn't forgotten.

[Syegfryed]

It's not, again, I point to TBC wasting characters just to fill villain roles.

Or the Lich King's entire behavior despite the fact that he could have killed us at any point, that he was "waiting" to test us.

yeah, i acknowledge both of those things, and said they aren't as bad as what we have now.

the whole bit of the Lich king wanting to "test us" and turn us into his army make more sense than the joke of NO ONE ESCAPE THE MAW to literally scape the maw as out first interaction with it and expand the entire expansion doing something they advertize no one can do .

They haven't copy and pasted an old expansion.

they did, BfA is a worse copy of Mop.

Just like Sylvanas should be a rotting corpse but she's magically not?

That just, not the same thing, at all, and its funny how this is your argument?

Sylvanas was fresh death when the Lich king turn her into a banshee, and it was a matter of days to retrieve her body, she should be damaged for sure, but jana's brother was TURN TO ASH, and his ashes sink in the bottom of the ocean, for like, 20 years.

Is like, waow, what a comparison.

No one had the same goal, it's about the Jailer piggybacking off of other plans.

And that just make the whole thing worse. the problem in trying to, retroactively shove the mastermind of 0 eyars of plot when there was none.

Maybe shadowlands would work if there was no other wow expansion before.

She used them to shield herself more than anything. And that doesn't change the fact that she kept flip/flopping nonstop on her objective since Wrath.

What was changed?

pre-wtlk:
she wanted revenge against Arthas -> used the forsaken as arrows in her quiver

Pos-wtlk:
She wanted to escape death and eternal damnation -> used the forsaken as a bulwark against the death.

therefore, after wtlk, she needed the forsaken to be stronger enough to defend her, and that means, clean off her enemies, where is the flip flop? i mean, as far to Legion, when she made the deal with Helya and wanted the valkyr, her objective was pretty consistent until they try to shove the Janitor into the equation, empowering the forsaken and herself to not die.

If anything only pós legion that the Flip flop begun with they making retcoing the book that just went out..

They didn't copy MoP. MoP barely had anything to actually do with the faction conflict and more to do with Pandaria itself. The most "conflict" that happened in MoP was the patch that added the dailies in the forest, but it barely mattered past that with the end of the result there being "Wow, Garrosh is crazy" from the Horde.

they did copy MOP, but just made it worse.

Teldrasill was literally to copy theramore as pre-patch events, that made both factions go total war instead of the skirmishes they were doing, then we travel to a new continent(pandaria ->zandalar/kul'tiran), we help the natives and they help us, being dragged into the war.

They literally made Sylvanas to be the second Garrosh, doing the same things, provoking other races anger, so they coul rebel later, she brought nasty people to the horde, the sanlayn, clearly callback to Garrosh bringing back the blackrock orcs full force in MOP with malkorok as his advisor.

She imprisoned a horde leader(Baine) for treason, like Garrosh tried to Kill vol'jin, also for treason, and both things leaded to the Rebellion, even the old god stuff was something we had in MOP.

Everything to remove a tyrant leader to put another, like the horde LITERALLY DIDN'T HAD PASSED FOR THAT LIKE 3 YEARS BEFORE

Sylvanas still had the support of the Horde up to Saurfang's challenge.

and there was no siege, and she was an elf not an orc, waow, totally different things /s

yeah, most of the horde backing up her, after everything she did, and after they rebeleld FOR LESS with Garrosh, just make no sense and put into evidence this horrible plot.

And then you end up with a puzzle that doesn't fit together. There's a reason why the story of FFXIV is praised more.

im sure the expansions in FF don't retcon and shit on the previous one, and they neither ruin their on character for the sake of plot, because the lead dev have a thing for the "main character of the game".

I never said it was resolved. I said it wasn't forgotten.

other things were not part of the next expansion, there is no need to explore then f we are not going there anyway, otherwise we stay with those tons of loose ends that elve to nothing anyway, cause yeah, what happened to the shadow priest dagger except to be macguffin


one of the things that made lore cool before was the sense of mystery, if you don't know how to explain, then don't do it, otherwise we have this nonsense cosmic force bs that every expansion get more messier, like making old gods just ticks in the world, and yep "void lrods are the real deal guys"

ah yes, another common critic in todays lore, how they make old villains look like shit inc omaprison tot he new ones, who are in fact,better and bigger than the last ons, something we see much in animes like DBZ

Androids 20 and 19? pfft, those are shit, HERE is the real deal: 17 and 18!, but hey, those are shit too, NOW THESE are the real deal ->

Same thing that happened in wow, Lich king? garbage, the real deal is our Janitor, scorgue? they are just a copy of maldraxus, now those are the OGs(quickly erase the nerubians of the equation, retcon that!)

Old gods? crap, the true villains are the void lords all along.

they didn't even come with beter names.

[Kokolums]

Danuser is to Wow as Chibnall is to Dr who now.

I remember learning back in the 20th century that the #1 rule of lore is don't go to tremendous lengths to overexplain the highest-level of cosmic aspects of your fictional universe. It always ends badly. DC and Marvel went that way with their comic book universes and its just a total mess AND boring. Doctor Who was about to head in that direction in the 1990s but got cancelled before the Cartmel Masterplan could happen (thankfully) which would have changed the Doctor's origin. Then Chibnall gets Doctor Who and actually does it and ruins Doctor Who forever. LOST started out as character piece stories on an island with some mysterious lore in the background which was great, then went into the crapper by focusing on trying to explain the cosmic lore. WoW tried to focus on the cosmic lore and the audience hated it and got bored and they wrecked the lore in the process. I even think the marvel cinematic universe is starting to spiral by trying to tackle a multiverse and cosmic lore now.

It almost NEVER works. The only place I can say it worked was Tolkien. But he was very good at what he was doing and spent years refining it.

[Foolicious]

I remember learning back in the 20th century that the #1 rule of lore is don't go to tremendous lengths to overexplain the highest-level of cosmic aspects of your fictional universe. It always ends badly. DC and Marvel went that way with their comic book universes and its just a total mess AND boring. Doctor Who was about to head in that direction in the 1990s but got cancelled before the Cartmel Masterplan could happen (thankfully) which would have changed the Doctor's origin. Then Chibnall gets Doctor Who and actually does it and ruins Doctor Who forever. LOST started out as character piece stories on an island with some mysterious lore in the background which was great, then went into the crapper by focusing on trying to explain the cosmic lore. WoW tried to focus on the cosmic lore and the audience hated it and got bored and they wrecked the lore in the process. I even think the marvel cinematic universe is starting to spiral by trying to tackle a multiverse and cosmic lore now.

It almost NEVER works. The only place I can say it worked was Tolkien. But he was very good at what he was doing and spent years refining it.

There is also no real point in explaining every single detail when there is no follow up. Whats the point of knowing how the entire universe operates and what the creator(s) of the universe had for lunch when we go back collecting poop for some farmers anyway?

[Magnagarde]

While this poll's numbers certainly represent a drop in the ocean for WoW's playerbase, it is also highly indicative of a general consensus that exists when it comes to Danuser's writing. Two facts are important here: this is a dedicated lore subforum and this is a rare case where difference of opinion is almost inexistant. While it is easy to handwave a measly ~160 votes away, I would say that this poll mirrors how players and fans that are even remotely interested in WoW's lore feel about his work. Some have lost interest in the Warcraft universe, some do not care about the story any longer and some find it outright bad, while the ones that like his work are few and far between. Danuser is capable of creating good questlines, writing novels that revolve around certain characters to expand their identity and designing stories for individual zones, but he shouldn't be the lead narrative designer.

[7eventyOne]

I hope that either he has his best work ahead of him or Blizzard finds someone that does.

[Zendhal The Black]

He's the only guy on this planet that honestly though GoT Ending was briliant...

let that sink in