Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[cubby]

And yet Manchin will cost you more seats then the single seat that he might or may not even hold.
People should really learn from the 2006, 2008 and 2016 elections. Trump for all of his stupidity and racism ran his 2016 election to the left of Clinton on certain economic issues, the solutions was always either stupid, racist or didn't exist but that are just minor details to the people that voted for him.

How do you think Manchin will cost the Democrats more seats? Just him - not other factors.

[Endus]

The people that spent years not understanding how a 54-46 senate works.
Also the people that dont understand how a 50-50 senate works.

The Senate "not working" is literally the point of democracy as a system of governance.

Nothing getting done as the country burns down around you is a more-defensible option than compromising basic principles and ideals.

The trick is ensuring that the public are made well aware that the villains responsible for nothing getting done are the obstructionists opposing policy, not the seated government.

[Edge-]

How do you think Manchin will cost the Democrats more seats? Just him - not other factors.

Uh...by holding up legislation that Democrats could campaign on. One of the same things that hurt Republicans going into the 2018 mid-terms - not having any meaningful legislative accomplishments outside of failing to repeal the ACA and passing a historically unpopular tax cut giveaway to the wealthy and corporations.

[cubby]

This is the Manchin we knew was coming, but still, fuck Manchin. He really seems to be delighting in his power and ability to fuck everyone else over so he can hang around with his coal business buddies on his houseboat and drive around in his Maserati SUV (fuckin gross).

For as shit as he is, he's still less bad than a Republican in that seat since like, not even the ARA would have passed if there was an R there. But fuck, man, while things aren't looking good for 2022 I'm hoping Democrats can somehow pick up another seat or two despite Manchin killing their big bills for the most part. Relegate him back to being a loud, semi-obscure, ultra-conservative Democrat from a flyover state again.

What's interesting is that everyone is shitting all over Manchin, as they should be, for his actions/statements/reversals on the Build Back Better legislation. What everyone is forgetting is that legislation is never going to pass. McConnell will filibuster the shit out of that and it will die in the Senate anyway.

What seats are you thinking the Democrats are going to pick up in the Senate?

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Uh...by holding up legislation that Democrats could campaign on. One of the same things that hurt Republicans going into the 2018 mid-terms - not having any meaningful legislative accomplishments outside of failing to repeal the ACA and passing a historically unpopular tax cut giveaway to the wealthy and corporations.

What legislation is he holding up? Because it sure isn't BBB - the filibuster will kill that.

[Edge-]

What seats are you thinking the Democrats are going to pick up in the Senate?

I haven't been paying super close attention, but at the rate things are going they'll be lucky to hold steady : /

What legislation is he holding up? Because it sure isn't BBB - the filibuster will kill that.

The plan was to use reconciliation to pass BBB and circumvent the filibuster.

[cubby]

I haven't been paying super close attention, but at the rate things are going they'll be lucky to hold steady : /

I hope they do - I think a victory in the 2022 election cycle would be just holding onto either house.

The plan was to use reconciliation to pass BBB and circumvent the filibuster.

Shoot - I thought they burned through their reconciliation votes. Well, Fuck Manchin then. Maybe he'll roll over in the new year and a version will pass.

[Milchshake]

Im starting to think even if BBB passed, no one online would give credit for it anyways.
People already memroy-holed the other trillion dollar infrastructure bill. That passed way back in ... 35 days ago.


Once you understand that a significant number of people who come to an emergent mass movement are seeking entertainment, not liberation.
You learn to watch for the people who try to tell the bored that they can have their cake (privilege) and be part of the fun of the circus, too.

[Edge-]

People already memroy-holed the other trillion dollar infrastructure bill. That passed way back in ... 35 days ago.

We haven't, but that was a fraction of what it was originally scoped out to be, and honestly the Democratic party/Biden administration are doing a dogshit job of selling it. Like Democrats always do when it comes to good legislation they've passed.

But given that they functionally heel-turned straight to promoting BBB rather than selling the accomplishments of the infrastructure bill, and that BBB seems like it may not pass, they functionally snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Again.

[cubby]

We haven't, but that was a fraction of what it was originally scoped out to be, and honestly the Democratic party/Biden administration are doing a dogshit job of selling it. Like Democrats always do when it comes to good legislation they've passed.

But given that they functionally heel-turned straight to promoting BBB rather than selling the accomplishments of the infrastructure bill, and that BBB seems like it may not pass, they functionally snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Again.

The Democrats have always been horrific at selling any of their ideas. Modern Dems lost the "message wars" starting with abortion (should have used Pro-Women) and then never beating the GOP at any message dispute since. And their timing is usually shitty as well, as you pointed out above. The Dems should have put out ad campaigns regarding the Infrastructure Bill passing, and waited until the next cycle for the BBB.

Fucking idiots.

[Endus]

The Democrats have always been horrific at selling any of their ideas. Modern Dems lost the "message wars" starting with abortion (should have used Pro-Women) and then never beating the GOP at any message dispute since. And their timing is usually shitty as well, as you pointed out above. The Dems should have put out ad campaigns regarding the Infrastructure Bill passing, and waited until the next cycle for the BBB.

Fucking idiots.

It's so much worse than that.

The abortion issue should never have been "pro-choice" or "pro-women". It should've been "the government has no business denying medical treatment on religious grounds". "Anti-religious-extremist" if you need a label.

The biggest problem the Democrats have with messaging is constantly presuming their opponents are engaging in good faith. That the opposing idea has validity, when it so often doesn't.

"Defunding the police" is a perfect example. The message there is perfectly fine. The problem is the absolute fucking decades of pro-cop propaganda horseshit that has so deluded the population into kneejerking at the idea. The opposition to Defund the Police is not made in good faith. It's made by propagandists and rubes who fell for it.

The Dems just need to stop expecting that decorum will prevail. Bring a fuckin' knife to the mud-fight, for once.

The infrastructure bill needs to pass. Those opposing it should be presented as being in favor of increasing American deaths due to crumbling infrastructure, of being deadbeats refusing to pay the predicted and expected upkeep and replacement funding that infrastructure requires, of putting partisan dickery ahead of the basic services owed to American citizens. Stop playing nice with people calling you names right to your face. That doesn't come off as strength. It comes off as cowardice. It would only come off as strength if the name-callers weren't winning, and by blocking legislation, they are winning.

[Milchshake]

The Democrats have always been horrific at selling any of their ideas. Modern Dems lost the "message wars" starting with abortion (should have used Pro-Women) and then never beating the GOP at any message dispute since. And their timing is usually shitty as well, as you pointed out above. The Dems should have put out ad campaigns regarding the Infrastructure Bill passing, and waited until the next cycle for the BBB.

Fucking idiots.

• What's the one neat trick to improve messaging?
• Do you guys account that messaging requires a platform?
• That the owners of the largest platforms are inherently hostile to your messaging, because they really hate paying taxes.
• Even worse, a few of those platforms are dedicated 24/7 propaganda platforms. So your messaging immediately starts in billions of dollars of deficit.

I honestly dont know the answer. Other than having the DNC or DNCC outright buying their own broadcast stations.

As an experiment I took it upon myself to spread positive Dem messaging over the last 22 months. "Ask not what your country ..."
Feedback from the Right was the same negative. Feedback from the Left, was markedly more negative...
Im thinking no amount of messaging will overcome the amount of therapy that is actually needed.

[cubby]

• What's the one neat trick to improve messaging?

THAT's going to go on for awhile.

I honestly dont know the answer. Other than having the DNC or DNCC outright buying their own broadcast stations.

The Dems have always been bad at messaging, and they always show up to the fight with the wrong tools, as @Endus pointed out. And I don't see how that is going to change, especially now, when the two parties are just at each other's throats over everything. The discussion is no longer about policy or goals, it's all about the partisanship - you can't be "for" anything except your party, and that charge has largely been led by the GQP.

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It's so much worse than that.

The abortion issue should never have been "pro-choice" or "pro-women". It should've been "the government has no business denying medical treatment on religious grounds". "Anti-religious-extremist" if you need a label.

The biggest problem the Democrats have with messaging is constantly presuming their opponents are engaging in good faith. That the opposing idea has validity, when it so often doesn't.

"Defunding the police" is a perfect example. The message there is perfectly fine. The problem is the absolute fucking decades of pro-cop propaganda horseshit that has so deluded the population into kneejerking at the idea. The opposition to Defund the Police is not made in good faith. It's made by propagandists and rubes who fell for it.

The Dems just need to stop expecting that decorum will prevail. Bring a fuckin' knife to the mud-fight, for once.

The infrastructure bill needs to pass. Those opposing it should be presented as being in favor of increasing American deaths due to crumbling infrastructure, of being deadbeats refusing to pay the predicted and expected upkeep and replacement funding that infrastructure requires, of putting partisan dickery ahead of the basic services owed to American citizens. Stop playing nice with people calling you names right to your face. That doesn't come off as strength. It comes off as cowardice. It would only come off as strength if the name-callers weren't winning, and by blocking legislation, they are winning.

I agree - and especially good point about the initial messaging on abortion. Everything you're saying above is correct (except for the Defund Police, but we can set that aside now for the bigger picture ).

I just don't know how any of it can be fixed. With Trump still in the mix, and he's a symptom not a cause, we're just going to get worse. People no longer care about the issues, they care only about the party backing them.

[Paranoid Android]

Uh...by holding up legislation that Democrats could campaign on. One of the same things that hurt Republicans going into the 2018 mid-terms - not having any meaningful legislative accomplishments outside of failing to repeal the ACA and passing a historically unpopular tax cut giveaway to the wealthy and corporations.

I agree. I wrote both my Senators, who are Dems that I'm sitting out the next midterm and possible future elections cause of people like Manchin. I mean I can't talk to at least my Dem Senators and to vote "yes" when they already are. Unless i was some rich asshole, I only have my vote to punish the Democrats with. I told these Senators I'm tired of supporting the Dems as a whole of you are not all on the same team, voting for major legislation.

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It's so much worse than that.

The abortion issue should never have been "pro-choice" or "pro-women". It should've been "the government has no business denying medical treatment on religious grounds". "Anti-religious-extremist" if you need a label..

Never understood why it was not framed this way. I guess the Dems are afraid of the religious right and the religion as a whole. It seems common sense and a good standing of he First Amendment that forcing other people's beliefs onto others is a basis of our Constitution.

Yes, the argument of government or even other people keeping out of other's lives should be enough too. Yet, this is the hypocrisy of the SMALL government right when they teamed up with the religious right.

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I agree - and especially good point about the initial messaging on abortion. Everything you're saying above is correct (except for the Defund Police, but we can set that aside now for the bigger picture ).

I just don't know how any of it can be fixed. With Trump still in the mix, and he's a symptom not a cause, we're just going to get worse. People no longer care about the issues, they care only about the party backing them.

The Dems are Passive Aggressive wusses. They wait til the Republicans eff up so bad the voters have to choose the Dems. If you are cynical you can say most Dems are paid corporate Dems who really just want the status quo. In the end they don't fight and the Republicans don't have to do much.

[Kaleredar]

@cubby I think the main issue with messaging, currently, is that the right has propaganda outlets while the left doesn’t really. The closest is MSNBC and it’s not even really that close.

Moreover, I think Reagan, oddly enough, said it best:

“If you’re explaining, you’re losing.”

Democrats do have more popular ideas, but they couch them in poorly thought out names or obscure phrases or other things that require explanations

Defund the police is a perfect example. Most people would agree that police reforms of some sort are necessary. But the name is terrible. If you had to “well actually it means…” your supposedly pithy slogan, it’s not a very good slogan.

Keep the progressive policies, but hire a marketing team to sell them as simply and efficiently as possible. Put the republicans on the backfoot on explaining why America shouldn’t have these things, instead of having democrats have to explain why they should.

[cubby]

@cubby I think the main issue with messaging, currently, is that the right has propaganda outlets while the left doesn’t really. The closest is MSNBC and it’s not even really that close.

That's a really good point, especially as the GQP/Conservative-Wing move into their Post-Fact Era. The Dems definitely started off badly decades ago, and just never got ahead of it. But yeah, now it's even worse.

[Paranoid Android]

That's a really good point, especially as the GQP/Conservative-Wing move into their Post-Fact Era. The Dems definitely started off badly decades ago, and just never got ahead of it. But yeah, now it's even worse.

With out a doubt the Biggest threat to our democracy in past 25 years has been Fox News.

[Armael]

@Endus and others. The abortion thing is incredibly simple. The Right believes it's murder, so all other reasons why it should be legal is like shouting at a wall. The best and really only reason why it is and should still be legal is the liberty for one to choose what happens to their body. If a person was found to have some unique blood or antibodies that could be donated to help make a worldwide cure for some actual terrible malady, they cannot be forced to donate anything. In that same sense, you can't force a woman to keep a pregnancy if she doesn't want it. Side note, the Right had ads touting the stupid nonsense of an abortion at 8-9 months, when it was completely an argument in bad faith. Those are rare as shit and will typically happen if it's discovered it'll be a stillborn or will have severe birth defects or will affect the woman in a negative way.

[Endus]

@Endus and others. The abortion thing is incredibly simple. The Right believes it's murder, so all other reasons why it should be legal is like shouting at a wall.

And they're wrong, on every single relevant fact associated with it.

They have as much point as PETA with their "meat is murder" slogans. Exactly the same appeal-to-emotion fact-agnostic kneejerk malicious horse shit. Anyone pushing that is a religious extremist on par with the Taliban in terms of their hostility to basic human rights for women.

It should never have been entertained as an argument. Anyone making that argument should have been socially reviled, held up as a radical extremist and misogynist. Because they were. Instead, they got granted legitimacy they never deserved on merit alone, because the Democrats had a ridiculously unwarranted approach to "fair play".

You may as well be arguing that women shouldn't be allowed to work because they need to be at home having babies. It's that level of "what the fuck is wrong with you". It's basically the same argument, even, on the exact same principles.

I don't care if you "believe it's murder", for religious reasons. Don't choose to have an abortion when you get pregnant, then. If it isn't your pregnancy, you can fuck right off. And there are no non-religious reasons to draw that conclusion. Literally, none. It's a religious viewpoint. Maybe you're "spiritual", or some other non-denominational flavor, but you're still acting on faith alone rather than verifiable science and legal justification.

Edit: I want to note that I don't have a problem with you believing this. I have a problem when you start trying to make everyone else abide by your religious beliefs. You can have a religious belief in basically whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone else, and I won't care. Start trying to push it on others against their will, and I'll reject that wholesale every time.

[Armael]

Some of the loudest and most head-shakingly annoying voices for "Pro-Life" are women too. It's astounding.

[Fugus]

@Paranoid Android

Your method is self destructive, you don’t stop voting, you make it a point to tell them that you will be voting against them in their primaries as well as donating to their opponents in it.

You continue to vote just to prevent the worse option from getting in and keep pushing to replace those benchwarmers with people who will actually try.

Have to remember if your option is between getting nothing done and putting a shotgun to the head of your nation and children’s future, you take the option of nothing until you can force them out as well.