[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Coniferous]

Yea...as I read in page 2 of Arstechnica review Andrew: The Perrin-Egwene thing is just there to artificially heighten tensions between some of our main characters, because some shows seem to believe that characters can't be interesting unless they're in some kind of conflict with one another at literally every possible second.

I am also just completely lost with how I'm supposed to feel about Perrin's Dead Wife, and how he feels about her, and just what her sketchily drawn character was supposed to be doing for the story in the first place (the most interesting theory I've heard among my friends is that she was a Darkfriend and was actually going for Perrin at the moment he killed her, but the show hasn't offered much to support that). We talked last week about how Perrin and Mat were feeling a bit underwritten compared to a lot of our other characters, and this kind of scene is what you get when you try to use an underdeveloped character to prop up an emotional beat like this.

As for Mat, he's just gone from this episode after last week's cliffhanger, and it says something about his presence on the show that neither the viewers nor the characters on screen seem to actually miss him much.

That whole "every conversation must be a conflict" thing was one of the worst parts of later Game of Thrones. It's how Sansa's character lost all cohesion, she just ended up switching positions and arguing with everyone all the time. It's why they made Tyrion a strategic idiot during Dany's invasion, just so they could have conflict between him and Dany. The best was the season where Cersei randomly let's Jaime yell at her for a while about how they need allies, and then, hey what do you know, Cersei smirks and the Greyjoy fleet comes charging in - because you know, why would Cersei tell Jaime they have an ally coming when she can just smirk and hide information from him. Once you noticed it in GoT it was unavoidable and incredibly annoying.

It was like, hey dudes, you know that sometimes people who are allied can just... have a conversation, right? Why does everything have to be an argument?

[Xath]

That whole "every conversation must be a conflict" thing was one of the worst parts of later Game of Thrones. It's how Sansa's character lost all cohesion, she just ended up switching positions and arguing with everyone all the time. It's why they made Tyrion a strategic idiot during Dany's invasion, just so they could have conflict between him and Dany. The best was the season where Cersei randomly let's Jaime yell at her for a while about how they need allies, and then, hey what do you know, Cersei smirks and the Greyjoy fleet comes charging in - because you know, why would Cersei tell Jaime they have an ally coming when she can just smirk and hide information from him. Once you noticed it in GoT it was unavoidable and incredibly annoying.

It was like, hey dudes, you know that sometimes people who are allied can just... have a conversation, right? Why does everything have to be an argument?

The crazy thing is late GoT issues can almost all be explained as not having the book to lean on. Meanwhile Rafe and Co have an entirely finished series and are just going nah.

[Coniferous]

The crazy thing is late GoT issues can almost all be explained as not having the book to lean on. Meanwhile Rafe and Co have an entirely finished series and are just going nah.

Agreed. Using the novel as a guide is by far the biggest strength of building a series off the books - someone has already written a coherent overarching story that you just stick to. There are a lot of other things that make a show hard, and it's REALLY hard to do those thing while creating a story from scratch.

[Mace]

The crazy thing is late GoT issues can almost all be explained as not having the book to lean on. Meanwhile Rafe and Co have an entirely finished series and are just going nah.

Not only an entirely finished series, but one that is bestseller and one of the top 3 in the world for it's genre - and have just gone.. nah. It's shocking.

Reading the books again, it's so fantasy, and you can't help but really like Rand and feel for him - not a trace of that in the series. Although in the series Egwene has grown on me a bit and I do like Nynaeve, but her charm and "uniqueness" isn't conveyed well in the series.. i haven't seen that furious tugging of her braid...

Such a shame.. I wish someone would do maybe an animated version, and do it justice. Probably have to wait another decade or two.

- - - Updated - - -

I do like that they hid Rand was dragon very well, however what they did to do it wasn't great - in the books you suspect because Rand is the perspective much of the first book is told from, so you know he the main character - but that doesn't mean he would end up the dragon. when I first read it, I wanted him to be the dragon, but I couldn't be sure. As the book went on , I got to really like Perrin and MAt too and wouldn't have minded if it was them.

There was something charming about possessing forbidden and dangerous abilities, but the way he handled it is so much better to most books. In this world, it's like an unfortuante thing you're not a power hungry sycophant in seek of dark powers like the darkfriends and most fantasies have. But saidin is tainted the magic isn't evil.

i find myself sort of hoping this approach is kinda used with the void magic. It's like a dark counterpart to the light, necessary as the light is, but it isn't evil, however accessing it has been "poisoned" by void lords and you have to fight through madness. It would be an excellent approach to take with the void. Would be a high elf /void elf or night elf hero arose to to cleanse the taint or madness from those. Question is should Alleria be the one, or should it be Tyrande or both together? @Varadoc

[Rennadrel]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Halfmen look like really shitty Voldemort knockoffs? Like, I was expecting something vile and actually scary looking, but they don't look threatening at all.

[Mace]

Am I the only one who thinks that the Halfmen look like really shitty Voldemort knockoffs? Like, I was expecting something vile and actually scary looking, but they don't look threatening at all.

There is no built up suspense to them , like in the book.

The first tone of the opening chapter is suspense leaning in the horror direction. The black clad rider, there one minute then not. The cloak that doesn't move in the wind - that is scary..something is off, replicating that well in film, the feel of hatred, can be conveyed appropriately through music, lighting atmosphere and then the conversation the boys have later in Eamon's field what point this out if you hadn't noticed. THe actors would convey the appropriate level of fear and feeling of hate..

The actual attack will reveal how scary the myrrdrahl can be and the Warder's comments would emphasise it. As the story progresses you realise they're ven more dangerous, and as film you'd have to choose the moment well to reveal the eyeless face



What in the show would you keep if you were to remake a more faithful adaptation?
What would you change, alter or emphasise - especially to visually convey some of the descriptions of the narrative

For e.g.: I would have played up Rand's tell tale signs he also was special a bit more: The encounter with the Whitecloaks in Whitebridge would have had him actually use the sword and demonstrate a skill well beyond his training, and would have had matt comment on it to make it obvious to the audience this was out of the ordinary, followed by attempts to duplicate the feat show Rand totally fumbling and having no idea how he did it
I would have also had the instance on Bayle Domon's boat, look really spectacular - the one when Rand has climbed up to the top of the mast and nonchalantly and acrobatically comes down like he has no fear, it's super easy and he is super skilled, and then have the actor portray surprise and fear when he realises what he had done and how it could have almost killed him, then puzzled as to how.

For Matt - I would have made more of the instance he shouts out in the old tongue (this becomes a big thin later on), but it marks him as special and something more , possibly given him a visual fx aura during the fight and the words some how causing fear/hesitation or even partial retreat in the trollocs as he charged them - you wouldn't know if it was the aura, or the words, or just his boldness - could it be a spell/magic? could he be the male channeler.

I would also fix Perrin's abilities with the wolf to be both spooky but also feel magical.

By half way, they have all exhibited something extraordinary and seemingly mysterious/magical.. Rand with the sword pay, Mat with the speaking in the language he souldn't know and his sudden change in demeanour while changing (this is before the dagger changes his disposition), Perrin.

Egwene is very exciting because we learn she can definitely use the one power and can train, this when i read it actually was the most exciting and extraordinary thing to happen, at this point i didn't know that Dragon would be able to channel for sure and besides being the dragon seemed a dreadful fate, but the dual hope of saving was interesting.

Nynaeve's revelation as one also able to use the one power was such a fistbump moment in the book for me, super exciting, and that it was very rare to have two so close, and so powerful too was so cool Later, off course we learn their different skills and how truly special they both are.

[Smallfruitbat]

What in the show would you keep if you were to remake a more faithful adaptation?
What would you change, alter or emphasise - especially to visually convey some of the descriptions of the narrative

Personally, I would have started with the Bel Tine games -that never happened in EoTW. See them as normal people having a bit of fun. I would have kept the Myrdrhaal in the background. Keep the Winters Night attack and the fever dream in its proper place. Focus on the 3 boys homes being attacked AND have the villagers try to drive Moiraine and Lan out. In short, I think there is plenty in the books that could be visually captivating and build up suspense.

There was enough misdirection in the story, Mat with the Old Tongue, Perrin with the wolves to keep the mystery. Egwene joining of her own accord was a real power moment for me. Having Moiraine telling her to join the party took away from Egwene as a character.

I would have kept the White Cloaks as they were in the books but played up the dreaming more. We're at 7/8 and have too many half formed antagonists none of whom feel particularly threatening. The only thing that introducing the Tower this early has done was given Moiraine a relationship. Other than that, it's taken away time from the EF5.

I don't see this going past season 2.

[jdbond]

Personally, I would have started with the Bel Tine games -that never happened in EoTW. See them as normal people having a bit of fun. I would have kept the Myrdrhaal in the background. Keep the Winters Night attack and the fever dream in its proper place. Focus on the 3 boys homes being attacked AND have the villagers try to drive Moiraine and Lan out. In short, I think there is plenty in the books that could be visually captivating and build up suspense.

There was enough misdirection in the story, Mat with the Old Tongue, Perrin with the wolves to keep the mystery. Egwene joining of her own accord was a real power moment for me. Having Moiraine telling her to join the party took away from Egwene as a character.

I would have kept the White Cloaks as they were in the books but played up the dreaming more. We're at 7/8 and have too many half formed antagonists none of whom feel particularly threatening. The only thing that introducing the Tower this early has done was given Moiraine a relationship. Other than that, it's taken away time from the EF5.

I don't see this going past season 2.

You know, this will only get worse as they drift more and more from source and build their own stuff. Witcher did this too. But Witcher looks good. Acting is good. Monster slaying is fun. Sets are great. etc..

This show doesn't deliver on anything. Atleast Witcher lets us like or hate characters. I mean who missed MAT!

Well it is a done deal. Even Amazon prime has stop advertising it as much as they used to. It used to be in your face. Now you have to search for it. To think they could have found a decent director and not this hack job. Expect this "team" to blame books fans for collapse.

[Shadowferal]

Expect this "team" to blame books fans for collapse.

And I for one would be proud to claim part of the blame. Although I'd say I'm proud to claim part of the credit.

[Xath]

And I for one would be proud to claim part of the blame. Although I'd say I'm proud to claim part of the credit.

Ditto, if the collapse also kicks Rafe and co. completely out of the creative space in terms of film I would be happy to claim that as well.

[Rhlor]

I like min! I hope Aviendha and Elayne look just as good when we see them on the show

[Gumble]

I like min! I hope Aviendha and Elayne look just as good when we see them on the show

Is Min from the Borderlands in the show? From descriptions of the borderlanders, she looks like she isn't from Andor. Oh well, guess another "Rafe didn't actually read the books" moment.

You may get Elayne, but this show won't last til Aviendha. It is already petering out.

[Xath]

I like min! I hope Aviendha and Elayne look just as good when we see them on the show

You like a casting that completely and utterly ignores book description in all facets?

[Mace]

Just got to the chapter in Camelyn where Rand and Mat meet Loial...

IT makes so much more sense why Loial goes with them, and in just a short few lines of interaction you get it.

Tav'veren is explained here - it's a crucial information and lore drop on the entire universe.
The Ogier are interoduced here, a liittle bit of what they are, what they value etc
And here it makes total sense why Loial wishes to follow Rand

and the series cuts ALL of it. I guess because Rand is the focus.. and they want GoT so Tar valon intrigue is better.

[Rhlor]

Is Min from the Borderlands in the show? From descriptions of the borderlanders, she looks like she isn't from Andor. Oh well, guess another "Rafe didn't actually read the books" moment.

You may get Elayne, but this show won't last til Aviendha. It is already petering out.

when min talks to rand she tells him that his future will have three beautiful women :P

[Gumble]

when min talks to rand she tells him that his future will have three beautiful women :P

I haven't seen a beautiful woman in this series yet. This show has been a sea of 4s to 6s.

I guess Min won't be in his future for the show?



As I said before, at least when the CW gives viewers crappy writing they put pretty people there for you to watch. Amazon couldn't hire some better looking actors?

[Biomega]

You like a casting that completely and utterly ignores book description in all facets?

Really, ALL facets? She's a big burly man, then? Or is it perhaps just SOME facets, and what you're really focused on are things like skin color or whatever that you personally think are important?

A lot of the time for characters in books, their appearance doesn't actually matter a whole lot beyond the most general. You could shift race etc. very easily for a ton of them and not really affect the plot in substantial ways. For some it DOES matter - Rand being the prime example, as his Aiel heritage is a big factor in many plot points later on. For others, some things matter more, and some matter less.

Does it really matter how Min looks? For the plot, I mean. Her being female matters, because of the whole Rand harem thing. Perhaps you could argue that her being somewhat small matters, because it makes people underestimate her. But anything beyond that? Is it really, actually important?

[Gumble]

Really, ALL facets? She's a big burly man, then? Or is it perhaps just SOME facets, and what you're really focused on are things like skin color or whatever that you personally think are important?

A lot of the time for characters in books, their appearance doesn't actually matter a whole lot beyond the most general. You could shift race etc. very easily for a ton of them and not really affect the plot in substantial ways. For some it DOES matter - Rand being the prime example, as his Aiel heritage is a big factor in many plot points later on. For others, some things matter more, and some matter less.

Does it really matter how Min looks? For the plot, I mean. Her being female matters, because of the whole Rand harem thing. Perhaps you could argue that her being somewhat small matters, because it makes people underestimate her. But anything beyond that? Is it really, actually important?

Is it important? The answer is "it depends".

Does it matter if the story was being done well, the writing was on point, and the change to the book looks like it was done for "this person was a super actor who did an incredible job where we simply had to go with them"? Nope, at that point you would simply go with it and assume she will do an amazing job.

Sadly, none of that exists with this show, so the assumption goes in the opposite direction and the change looks like it was done simply to change the books for "reasons" that don't make the story better. The description of Faile from the borderlands was very distinct. The other borderlanders were all very distinctly east-asian-esqe from the books. Lan fit that description for the casting. They did a pretty good job with him (writing and how they've used him...... eh).

Does it matter that she doesn't look like Min? Not REALLY. At this point nobody it is neither a surprise nor unexpected.

[Shadowferal]

I haven't seen a beautiful woman in this series yet. This show has been a sea of 4s to 6s.

To be fair, I'd interpret Min's words as to what Rand considers beautiful.

[Rhlor]

Really, ALL facets? She's a big burly man, then? Or is it perhaps just SOME facets, and what you're really focused on are things like skin color or whatever that you personally think are important?

A lot of the time for characters in books, their appearance doesn't actually matter a whole lot beyond the most general. You could shift race etc. very easily for a ton of them and not really affect the plot in substantial ways. For some it DOES matter - Rand being the prime example, as his Aiel heritage is a big factor in many plot points later on. For others, some things matter more, and some matter less.

Does it really matter how Min looks? For the plot, I mean. Her being female matters, because of the whole Rand harem thing. Perhaps you could argue that her being somewhat small matters, because it makes people underestimate her. But anything beyond that? Is it really, actually important?

also matters the clothes that Min wears

in the case of rand and aviendha it matters that they are redheads because it is the characteristic of their ethnic group