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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer Littleraven's Avatar
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    No. But it is currently a mess because the current writing team doesn't seem to know how to handle all of this stuff. There is a way to do all of this cosmic stuff and still make it feel earned and like it belongs. It's not easy but it can be done.

    I personally think the lore itself is more or less fine. The way we got here and the story though? Its a goddamn nightmare.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is the right take. The worst damage is to the playable factions and races. The damage the Forsaken have taken for example will require substantial retcons to correct, the Horde as an institution a soft reboot. The Alliance just requires writing some characters better.

    Everything else is transitory and will go straight to the bin the second the expansion it's in runs its course. Who still gives an iota of a shit about the infinite Burning Legion considering it's had 0 impact on all expansions since it was mentioned, even the one literally called Legion? The primary vehicles through which the world is interacted with, that being the playable races and factions on the other hand are there forever and damage to them colours all that follows. See also Teldrassil vs. Thrall breaking the space time continuum to steal a necklace. One causes far more cosmic illogic than the other, but it also doesn't affect anything going forward and so people rightly don't give a shit. The same will follow from SL, as with WoD, where only the elements well recieved and recyclable will follow us on. Damage to the playable races, like TBC, Mists and BFA lasts much, much longer.
    This pretty much sums up my thoughts. The playable races/factions have taken so much damage that they are almost unrecognizable from where they once were. Some races get off a little better than others, but only because they are races that haven't been heavily featured, which it itself is not great.

    But to the weird yo yo system of writing that the team uses to give story time to races like Orcs, Forsaken, Blood Elves, Night Elves and to a degree even Humans is insane.

    The writers seem wayyy too intent on just moving the story forward with whatever they think is cool at the time, not really thinking about the long term story they want to tell, or what the players are going to think when the races they love and play suddenly shift wildly out of character because the plot demands it. Way too many characters have to act in super specific ways that are practically alien to what their characters have demonstrated, but do exactly this just to propel the narrative, instead of creating situations where the nrrative still moves forward, only more organically and with characters staying true to themselves.

    I don't think that the lore is broken, per se, rather the lore has become shitty and lazily strung together. It's currently the Harlequin romance novel of video game storytelling.

  3. #43
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    People exaggerate the issue. People on this forum, and even in this very thread, are exaggerating that it is "destroyed" when it's really only devalued in their eyes.

    If more and more people could get out of their own ways and realize that not everything is how they perceive it, while also allowing other people to enjoy things they don't currently enjoy, this conversation would be a lot easier to have.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    Technically the Nzoth fight stops at 2.5% so he isnt dead-dead and thus the switcheroo could be valid
    Yes, but "technically" does not mean "credible", "interesting" or "exciting".

    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    People exaggerate the issue. People on this forum, and even in this very thread, are exaggerating that it is "destroyed" when it's really only devalued in their eyes.

    If more and more people could get out of their own ways and realize that not everything is how they perceive it, while also allowing other people to enjoy things they don't currently enjoy, this conversation would be a lot easier to have.
    I do not understand. How come we don't let others enjoy? It's not like we can define what is written or that we have any real power.

    Except that you say of course that we have to donate money to Blizzard to write stories that interest us but others.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    People exaggerate the issue. People on this forum, and even in this very thread, are exaggerating that it is "destroyed" when it's really only devalued in their eyes.

    If more and more people could get out of their own ways and realize that not everything is how they perceive it, while also allowing other people to enjoy things they don't currently enjoy, this conversation would be a lot easier to have.
    What is your point, exactly? Why the hell should people be happy that they aren't enjoying the game? Just because some guy a thousand miles away likes it? What if Blizzard makes some big change and he suddenly doesn't like it, but I do, does his opinion now mean less? Is he allowed to be unhappy with the state of the game in the future? Would you write the same thing in a thread gushing about how great the game is?
    Would
    "The game isn't ACTUALLY bad, you just THINK it is!"
    Turn into
    "The game isn't ACTUALLY good, you just THINK it is!"
    ?

    Give me a break dude. You're not the wise mediator you think you are.

  6. #46
    The dream that you completely understand an authors pov when you observe a story is completely destroyed.

    Time travel has been a thing since at the very least tbc yet people complain that it's a variable within the fantasy. You should've been complaining in bc when the precedence was set that we can and will do things for the sake of maintaining timelines.

    Afterlife has even confirmed since tft, yet people are surprised we don't know who hades is until now? Pretty sure if we knew who was pulling the strings all along we'd have been working with sylvanas. Oh wait bolvar did know who was the jailer all throughout Legion but he prioritized the heroes working on a threatwithin their reach, not s fantasy land that requires the helmof domination to be destroyed so others can even participate .

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Same logic as how the jailers 5d galaxy mind plan hinged on varian not killing garrosh so he would go to prison then escape, then travel back in time to an alternate reality to have archimonde die and throw guldan through a portal like aku to open up the tomb of sargeras so the legion could corrupt argus' worldsoul:

    "dude, don't think about it"
    His plan hinged on absolutely none of this.. Why do you people think planning for things works like this, have you never attempted to get anything done? When you look up directions on google maps to drive somewhere, do you also plan for every car that's going to be on the road and pedestrian you have to stop for? Do you note exactly how far back from the crossings you're going to stop because of how many cars are going to be in front of you, and the timing for each individual stoplight?

    The Jailer's plan hinged on building up enough strength to push back against the other Eternal Ones and get free of the maw, and figuring out a way to forcibly take their sigils so that he could use them to access Zereth Mortis. That is all. The way it ultimately ended up working out was not the only possibility or sole progression of the plan.

    Figuring out some way to destroy or disable the Arbiter construct so that souls would flood the Maw en masse, significantly increasing the rate at which he was building strength was a side option. The Arbiter being disabled was not even something required for the plan, all it did was make things go much faster by actively weakening the covenants at a high rate, and empowering the Jailer's forces at a high rate. So now instead of having to continue to build up strength over several thousand years and slowly infiltrate and corrupt the other realms, he could take a much more aggressive stance.

    In case you didn't notice the Jailer wasn't even particularly reliant on the Oribos stream of anima, because Denathrius was already stockpiling his entire realm's worth of anima to dump directly into the Maw.

    You also seem to be under the incredibly wrong impression that the only way the Legion could ever get to Azeroth was if Gul'dan specifically magically came back from the dead and helped them get there, when in reality it was just an inevitability that they'd figure out some way to. Gul'dan was just a nice little surprise that let them move up their invasion. It should be pretty obvious that the Jailer's plans didn't hinge on Gul'dan, when Gul'dan wasn't even the Legion's first attempt to open a portal this century.

    The reality is just that while biding his time powering up, having already effectively conquered one of the four covenants/realms by bringing Denathrius to his side, and having already worked with both Mueh'zala to start undermining Ardenweald and Helya to undermine the Kyrian, the Jailer was in a great spot. On the side, he had the Dreadlords actively working on a way to sabotage the Arbiter and Oribos by slamming a large corrupted soul into her, and they had decided Argus was a great candidate, and corrupted him even more behind Sargeras' back to prime him as that weapon. Fortune worked out for them and we killed Argus while defeating the Legion, but the plan did not hinge on that, because there are other, much stronger forces than us who do not like the Legion, like the Void and Light, and it's quite possible they didn't need anyone to kill Argus at all, because he was naturally unstable and could have eventually just tore himself apart and still worked out as a weapon--and if Argus had failed entirely, they would have gone looking for something else to use, or just waited until Zovaal was strong enough to do it himself.

    Likewise, on the side, he was running a minor scheme to figure out a way to get to the sigils without the backup plan of all-out-war. Which he did by having the Dreadlords slip his control into the Lich King's armaments, giving him increased control over people in the mortal world. As above, his plan here was not control the lich king, to kill Slyvanas Windrunner, to raise her, to run the forsaken and attack the scourge, to kill herself and become a conduit and then warchief and then destroy the helm and kidnap Anduin Wrynn. It was just to put another, strong agent (the Lich King) in the mortal realm to spread his influence and be a useful tool. Like Sylvanas, who once in position and sufficiently empowered, was an even stronger, more loyal agent, so he no longer needed the Lich King and decided to use the helm to shatter the barrier between worlds and look for living souls to weaponize against the covenant leaders.

    The reason why Zovaal's strategy is great and worked well isn't because he planned for every last chance and individual piece over tens of thousands of years, it's because he's very good at seeing the whole, recruited a whole lot of useful people to his side, and had dozens of small, self-contained schemes to individually help him along his primary plan of "get stronger -> beat other covenants and take sigils -> go to Zereth Mortis and fuck up universe". None of it hinged on anything or required 9 million IQ 5d chess plays. It was just good managerial skills and an eye for finding/creating, and then using, opportunities.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Yes, but "technically" does not mean "credible", "interesting" or "exciting".
    Well that worked for Garrosh, Azshara and Sylvanas as bosses so...


    Plus we faced Nzoth, an old god, in his own mind/reality so from a lore pov isnt really the most trustworthy event.

  9. #49
    Bloodsail Admiral bloodkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    People exaggerate the issue. People on this forum, and even in this very thread, are exaggerating that it is "destroyed" when it's really only devalued in their eyes.

    If more and more people could get out of their own ways and realize that not everything is how they perceive it, while also allowing other people to enjoy things they don't currently enjoy, this conversation would be a lot easier to have.
    Disagree here on alle points:

    First, I think that the lore has been thoroughly devalued by the devs first and foremost, resulting in poor lore for us as a result. If they don't even bother to put in some decent effort to keep the lore in good quality, how vould it stay as good as it was before?
    Secondly, nobody is telling others how to feel about the lore, if you like it more power to you, but I and many other absolutely loathe it.

    The lore quality and consistency has been sacrificed to make a quickly digestible, fast paced and flashy story catering to the absolute lowest common denominator, the disnyfication of warcraft characters truly ruined a lot of good lore. You can Disagree with people here in that, but it's a hard fact that danuser and co doesn't put in the same effort to keep the lore consistent or at the same level as we were once used to.
    'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn

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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    His plan hinged on absolutely none of this.. Why do you people think planning for things works like this, have you never attempted to get anything done? When you look up directions on google maps to drive somewhere, do you also plan for every car that's going to be on the road and pedestrian you have to stop for? Do you note exactly how far back from the crossings you're going to stop because of how many cars are going to be in front of you, and the timing for each individual stoplight?

    The Jailer's plan hinged on building up enough strength to push back against the other Eternal Ones and get free of the maw, and figuring out a way to forcibly take their sigils so that he could use them to access Zereth Mortis. That is all. The way it ultimately ended up working out was not the only possibility or sole progression of the plan.

    Figuring out some way to destroy or disable the Arbiter construct so that souls would flood the Maw en masse, significantly increasing the rate at which he was building strength was a side option. The Arbiter being disabled was not even something required for the plan, all it did was make things go much faster by actively weakening the covenants at a high rate, and empowering the Jailer's forces at a high rate. So now instead of having to continue to build up strength over several thousand years and slowly infiltrate and corrupt the other realms, he could take a much more aggressive stance.

    In case you didn't notice the Jailer wasn't even particularly reliant on the Oribos stream of anima, because Denathrius was already stockpiling his entire realm's worth of anima to dump directly into the Maw.

    You also seem to be under the incredibly wrong impression that the only way the Legion could ever get to Azeroth was if Gul'dan specifically magically came back from the dead and helped them get there, when in reality it was just an inevitability that they'd figure out some way to. Gul'dan was just a nice little surprise that let them move up their invasion. It should be pretty obvious that the Jailer's plans didn't hinge on Gul'dan, when Gul'dan wasn't even the Legion's first attempt to open a portal this century.

    The reality is just that while biding his time powering up, having already effectively conquered one of the four covenants/realms by bringing Denathrius to his side, and having already worked with both Mueh'zala to start undermining Ardenweald and Helya to undermine the Kyrian, the Jailer was in a great spot. On the side, he had the Dreadlords actively working on a way to sabotage the Arbiter and Oribos by slamming a large corrupted soul into her, and they had decided Argus was a great candidate, and corrupted him even more behind Sargeras' back to prime him as that weapon. Fortune worked out for them and we killed Argus while defeating the Legion, but the plan did not hinge on that, because there are other, much stronger forces than us who do not like the Legion, like the Void and Light, and it's quite possible they didn't need anyone to kill Argus at all, because he was naturally unstable and could have eventually just tore himself apart and still worked out as a weapon--and if Argus had failed entirely, they would have gone looking for something else to use, or just waited until Zovaal was strong enough to do it himself.

    Likewise, on the side, he was running a minor scheme to figure out a way to get to the sigils without the backup plan of all-out-war. Which he did by having the Dreadlords slip his control into the Lich King's armaments, giving him increased control over people in the mortal world. As above, his plan here was not control the lich king, to kill Slyvanas Windrunner, to raise her, to run the forsaken and attack the scourge, to kill herself and become a conduit and then warchief and then destroy the helm and kidnap Anduin Wrynn. It was just to put another, strong agent (the Lich King) in the mortal realm to spread his influence and be a useful tool. Like Sylvanas, who once in position and sufficiently empowered, was an even stronger, more loyal agent, so he no longer needed the Lich King and decided to use the helm to shatter the barrier between worlds and look for living souls to weaponize against the covenant leaders.

    The reason why Zovaal's strategy is great and worked well isn't because he planned for every last chance and individual piece over tens of thousands of years, it's because he's very good at seeing the whole, recruited a whole lot of useful people to his side, and had dozens of small, self-contained schemes to individually help him along his primary plan of "get stronger -> beat other covenants and take sigils -> go to Zereth Mortis and fuck up universe". None of it hinged on anything or required 9 million IQ 5d chess plays. It was just good managerial skills and an eye for finding/creating, and then using, opportunities.



    38 rows trying defending pure shit

    9/10




    I can get you havent read a single book in your life, so maybe is that the issue and you cant see how bad is the current lore from a storytelling pov and from a "basic writing skill" one.

    But trying to play the card of "noooo pepe silva.gif was all according to his plan because -galaxy brain- see?" is pretty lame



    If people actually read books about wow lore, you can clearly see how 1. the zovaal plan makes no sense || 2. required tons of retcons || 3. required a fuckton of lucky


    Truly 5D Galaxy Brain, not even Dick Dastardly plans were so convoluted

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    Well that worked for Garrosh, Azshara and Sylvanas as bosses so...
    I would say that he served only with Garrosh and only because he went looking for someone else to fight with him and he became a secondary character.

    Hmm so if Nzoth's Plan is to call someone else then it might work.
    It still remains a horrible ending for Nzoth who have been building it for so long.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    People exaggerate the issue. People on this forum, and even in this very thread, are exaggerating that it is "destroyed" when it's really only devalued in their eyes.

    If more and more people could get out of their own ways and realize that not everything is how they perceive it, while also allowing other people to enjoy things they don't currently enjoy, this conversation would be a lot easier to have.
    I will also let people enjoy Michael Bay Transformers movies. That doesn't mean I'm not gonna meme about how shit they are or somehow humor people when they say the Transformers movies are anything but sub-par.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    No? People seem to forget the lore in itself is fine…until the storytelling comes in. And that aspect alone ruins the experience and dampens the “lore” a bit. FF does perfect for both (fuck 10 and 13 tho lol) but WoW has been telling half a story while providing easily and not so easily overlooked minor and VERY major retcons since WC fucking 1. Wanna know why early WoW worked tho? Cause unlike BFA+, the Old Gods and Titans were legit established beings that existed since WC2…I think? Maybe 3 Idfk I do know Sargeras used to be pathetic tho lmaooo and the Old Gods were Titan lvl lol

    As for everything else??? Uhm

    Outside of Sylvanas and N’Zoth being wasted cause “hurr Old Gods suck hurr Death be kinda threatening hurr”

    …I think the lore is ok. Storytelling is prolly worse than before tho. Zovaal has no characterization, despite his motives being established, Elunes plot is over as soon as it begins, Sargeras’ BS is based off some dumb cosmic lie now, KJ is not some big brained deceiver anymore, I wanna see Broxigar or some shit in SL (Ik Sargeras fucked his ass up, but I doubt his soul was obliterated lol), Uthalesh Is gone, where is Helya, what about the Dreadlord life plot, who tf leads the Drust now? Etc

    It’s so dumb. Now I’m to believe Sylvanas still has her banshee Maw powers and has green health whenever we go near her??? She doesn’t even say anything nice to us, she says nice empowering things to Anduin, says “there is no way time to waste” and confidentially has a damn free will amp on top of it all alongside us…plus a final chapter most likely dedicated to her…

    Plus the fact she is the “first Maw Walker” and that whole “souls deserve redemption” thing, and the soul split BS which only ever existed as an actual normal domination factor for SL alone kinda pisses me off…

    If SL ends the way everyone thought…I’ll quit WoW and just move on. I don’t think the lore is fucked, but the storytelling is ass, and that alone is resulting in a game with “degrading” lore quality

    - - - Updated - - -



    Zovaal’s existence doesn’t have to change shit. It does have to be properly told tho…
    Yes, this so many times. The lore is not worse than the Legion, or Cata for example. The story, however, is worse. Even though Warcraft relied on simple stories and the rule of cool most of the time. This time it's just not.. cool.
    Last edited by LazarusLong; 2021-12-21 at 05:16 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I would say that he served only with Garrosh and only because he went looking for someone else to fight with him and he became a secondary character.

    Hmm so if Nzoth's Plan is to call someone else then it might work.
    It still remains a horrible ending for Nzoth who have been building it for so long.
    The ending =\= nzoth plan.


    That is the usual lazyness of devs.



    But if we assume that Nzoth plan was to get stabbed and thus absorbed into Xal'atath dagger so he could get away from Azeroth, recovering or bolstering in the Dark Beyhond, since he is the weakest of the 4 old gods and he saw us beating the shit out of titans/gods, trying to fight us maybe wasnt the most brilliant idea ever and he decide to bait us and use us for his own purposes.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    The ending =\= nzoth plan.


    That is the usual lazyness of devs.



    But if we assume that Nzoth plan was to get stabbed and thus absorbed into Xal'atath dagger so he could get away from Azeroth, recovering or bolstering in the Dark Beyhond, since he is the weakest of the 4 old gods and he saw us beating the shit out of titans/gods, trying to fight us maybe wasnt the most brilliant idea ever and he decide to bait us and use us for his own purposes.
    My point stands. No bad guy was the bad guy in two expansions.
    He is bad in one and secondary in another.

    So Nzoth lost the possibility of having his expansion with the naga that the community had been waiting for about 10 years and in return he will be the secondary baddie in an expansion of the void.

    That expansion of Nzoth, Nialotha and Nagas was destroyed to make a patch.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    No? People seem to forget the lore in itself is fine…
    Naahh chief.


    The Lore is a mess, the storytelling was awful since Vanilla, now both Lore and Storytelling is turboshit.



    The biggest issue with Storytelling is that the Lore is somehow fragmented between Game, Cinematics, Books - and if you dont make a recap once in a while in the game, people are gonna understand a fuck about the Lore.

    **** this is why FF14 is better on Lore/Storytelling because they daze and beat you with tons of dialogues/explaination/cinematic ad nauseam but you still understand what is happening and why ****

    Like, Calia, who the fuck is and why she is a thicc white mommy? If you didnt read the book where she dies and get resurrected you dont understand who she is - that is a Storytelling problem.

    Meanwhile Zovaal, getting injected into the Lore in 9.0 OUT OF NOWHERE not a single hint before, is a Storytelling and a Lore problem, on top of this shit cake there is the shitty cherry that "he was the mastermind behind anything" which is cheap and lazy, this and he is gonna die in 9.2 so basically introduced and killed in the same EXP JFC what a pile of shit.

    This "the baddie was manoeuvredby the baddie+ and the baddie+ was manoeuvred by the baddie++ etc etc" is even more lazy than time-travelling a la WoD



    Having multiple "enemies" at different layers and dealing with each of them one by one is way better than "everything we have done was pre planned"


    Because the Lore atm is like this, everything we did was according to the plan.



    What if we never deafeat Argus? No Arbiter BDOS no funnelling of anima in the Maw. Zovaal literally got lucky thinking a bunch of mortals could beat a Titan/God

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    My point stands. No bad guy was the bad guy in two expansions.
    He is bad in one and secondary in another.

    So Nzoth lost the possibility of having his expansion with the naga that the community had been waiting for about 10 years and in return he will be the secondary baddie in an expansion of the void.

    That expansion of Nzoth, Nialotha and Nagas was destroyed to make a patch.
    Ah you mean as main villain? Ye that was a terrible waste.

    Azshara and Nzoth should have been the major villains for the entire EXPac, maybe we will get a Black Empire expac after waking up from Shadowlands nightmare.

  17. #57
    Is the lore destroyed? Dunno, probably. Have BfA and SL killed my interest in it? Certainly.

  18. #58
    Posts like these make it so obvious the person never played TBC or literally ignored all the lore about it. Always get a good laugh at their ignorance.
    Goodbye-Forever-MMO-Champ
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioporco View Post
    38 rows trying defending pure shit

    9/10




    I can get you havent read a single book in your life, so maybe is that the issue and you cant see how bad is the current lore from a storytelling pov and from a "basic writing skill" one.
    Nothing quite as hilarious as people making comments about reading and writing when they can't handle basic grammar.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Posts like these make it so obvious the person never played TBC or literally ignored all the lore about it. Always get a good laugh at their ignorance.
    True. TBC deserves to be rewritten in its entirety.

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