Should roguelike gameplay become a fourth "solo pillar" of the endgame?

[paxen]

Currently the endgame evolves around the three "pillars", rated pvp, m+ and raids, all group content. One distinct feature of this system is that you mostly progress your character for a pillar by playing that pillar (it's not always successful in that regard, but players always dislike that). Blizzard has been experimenting with implementing roguelike play with Torghast, and it hasn't been that succesful. But I think that's mostly due to two reasons, a) it's not a separate pillar, but instead a roadblock you need to pass to access the three real pillars ("choreghast") and b) class balance is rather nonexistent.

Could the next Torghast be a viable fourth solo pillar if it fully gained its own internal reward structure? Ie you don't have to run alts through if you don't want to, and it provided at least half-decent loot (possibly through the vault)?

[Schizoide]

Sure, if they make it fun, why not?

That's the kicker, though, isn't it? Easier said than done.

[Logwyn]

Currently the endgame evolves around the three "pillars", rated pvp, m+ and raids, all group content. One distinct feature of this system is that you mostly progress your character for a pillar by playing that pillar (it's not always successful in that regard, but players always dislike that). Blizzard has been experimenting with implementing roguelike play with Torghast, and it hasn't been that succesful. But I think that's mostly due to two reasons, a) it's not a separate pillar, but instead a roadblock you need to pass to access the three real pillars ("choreghast") and b) class balance is rather nonexistent.

Could the next Torghast be a viable fourth solo pillar if it fully gained its own internal reward structure? Ie you don't have to run alts through if you don't want to, and it provided at least half-decent loot (possibly through the vault)?

Only if there is perma-death

[MrLachyG]

yes. /10char

[SoulSoBreezy]

The fourth pillar as it is, has typically been "everything that's not the Big Three (raiding, pvp, more recently dungeons)." Recent offerings, notably BFA have tried to make marry features (systems) together to encourage playing content outside someone's wheelhouse with mixed results.
Today SL went in the opposite direction by dividing features, think covenants, that provided no player power.
Then Korthia did provide power but also pulled another BFA by providing a path to player power through korthia (conduits). Even if there was another path to conduits, Korthia happened to be optimal, hence some bad feelings, "chorethia," whatever.
9.2 is going to feel more or less like 9.0 in comparison. Big Three players don't need to visit ZM past making tier pieces they're missing; ZM is basically a zone for the casual/collector crowd.
I totally forgot about your question sorry, but IMO who're we to say that a single gameplay mode like Torghast should be the premiere endgame for solo players? This means a lot to a lot of people.

[Orange Joe]

Currently the endgame evolves around the three "pillars", rated pvp, m+ and raids, all group content. One distinct feature of this system is that you mostly progress your character for a pillar by playing that pillar (it's not always successful in that regard, but players always dislike that). Blizzard has been experimenting with implementing roguelike play with Torghast, and it hasn't been that succesful. But I think that's mostly due to two reasons, a) it's not a separate pillar, but instead a roadblock you need to pass to access the three real pillars ("choreghast") and b) class balance is rather nonexistent.

Could the next Torghast be a viable fourth solo pillar if it fully gained its own internal reward structure? Ie you don't have to run alts through if you don't want to, and it provided at least half-decent loot (possibly through the vault)?

Procedurally generator floors don't make it anything near rogue-like.

[Soon-TM]

No. Blizzard has proved that it is willing to destroy any type of content that might possibly cast a shadow over their precious raids. The most you can expect is the Box of Many Things, aka a refurbished Visions of N'zoth tech tree.

Not to mention that Visions/Torghast blow massive dick when it comes to what one commonly understands as "roguelike", anyway.

[Soeroah]

I'd like them to make solo play in general the fourth pillar, with roguelike being a part of that.

[cparle87]

The fourth pillar as it is, has typically been "everything that's not the Big Three (raiding, pvp, more recently dungeons)." Recent offerings, notably BFA have tried to make marry features (systems) together to encourage playing content outside someone's wheelhouse with mixed results.
Today SL went in the opposite direction by dividing features, think covenants, that provided no player power.
Then Korthia did provide power but also pulled another BFA by providing a path to player power through korthia (conduits). Even if there was another path to conduits, Korthia happened to be optimal, hence some bad feelings, "chorethia," whatever.
9.2 is going to feel more or less like 9.0 in comparison. Big Three players don't need to visit ZM past making tier pieces they're missing; ZM is basically a zone for the casual/collector crowd.
I totally forgot about your question sorry, but IMO who're we to say that a single gameplay mode like Torghast should be the premiere endgame for solo players? This means a lot to a lot of people.

If we were to dismiss all the content the most vocal and cynical members of the playerbase dismiss with trite mockery names we wouldn't have much content left.

Sadly way too many people see content as either "mandatory" or "meaningless" depending on whether they provide player power for the type of content they prefer.

- - - Updated - - -

No. Blizzard has proved that it is willing to destroy any type of content that might possibly cast a shadow over their precious raids.

If that was in any way true they never would've made keystones or even mythic zeros, which reduced the power gap between what even a casual normal raider can get and what someone who only does world content can get. Come to think of it, Korthia gear upgrades to higher than normal Sanctum.

[Flaim]

if they could make it challenging due to mechanics instead of just numbers, ok. but the way it is now the only way to die is when you either don't get the correct powers or because they simply oneshot you in areas where there is literally no way to avoid the damage, e.g. constantly ticking aoe without sufficient selfheal or enrage mechanics.

[arandomuser]

i like what there trying with zereth mortis would be interesting to see how a similar system would play out as a full expac wide thing with the zone specific mechanics and rewards not tied to raiding or pvp

[ohwell]

If we were to dismiss all the content the most vocal and cynical members of the playerbase dismiss with trite mockery names we wouldn't have much content left.

Sadly way too many people see content as either "mandatory" or "meaningless" depending on whether they provide player power for the type of content they prefer.

- - - Updated - - -



If that was in any way true they never would've made keystones or even mythic zeros, which reduced the power gap between what even a casual normal raider can get and what someone who only does world content can get. Come to think of it, Korthia gear upgrades to higher than normal Sanctum.

Side not to your statement: Can we all just stop saying mythic 0 as there isn't such a thing. The base is 1.

[cparle87]

Side not to your statement: Can we all just stop saying mythic 0 as there isn't such a thing. The base is 1.

Yeah. Not really sure where the 0 thing came from. Language is a weird beast.

- - - Updated - - -

i like what there trying with zereth mortis would be interesting to see how a similar system would play out as a full expac wide thing with the zone specific mechanics and rewards not tied to raiding or pvp

The hardcores and wannabe hardcores would just dismiss it as "not content" and come to these forums to complain about there being "factually and objectively no content."

[MoanaLisa]

I wouldn't mind that but the play options would need to be more interesting and deeper. It would be nice if it felt more random as well. I understand that the room setup is randomized but the way they've done it doesn't always make it feel that way. Perma-death isn't necessary and while it's a rogue-like trope many modern rogue-likes only have it as an option.

My basic fear is that now that they've done it they will abandon it like they abandon their other ideas which conceptually are interesting but lacking in execution. It would please me if they went back to truly iterating on good features instead of tossing them out half-baked and then abandoning them because people dislike them...because they're half-baked.

[Rusken]

Roguelike or not, WoW's solo play desperately needs a buff. Think of OSRS, all content in that game is soloable and some of the hardest stuff you literally can't group for.

Imagine if dungeons scaled to amount of players AND level, along with their rewards. So you could run dungeons with up to 5 people and gear is much more likely to drop with more people, say 20% chance for a boss drop per player. Supplement it with a Badge of Justice type system as bad luck protection and similarly give more of it per player in a dungeon. Culminating in a Mage Tower level difficulty Solo Raid that gives Raid tier loot.

The hardest part about introducing more Solo content as main progression is balancing it in a way that doesn't massively incentivise solo play over group play. It needs to be possible, but not easy to progress solo and group play should always remain the most efficient way to gear your character.

[Sucralose]

No, While it has its place wow simply has to much diversity for it to comfortably go to heroic level.

[WowIsDead64]

Currently the endgame evolves around the three "pillars", rated pvp, m+ and raids, all group content. One distinct feature of this system is that you mostly progress your character for a pillar by playing that pillar (it's not always successful in that regard, but players always dislike that). Blizzard has been experimenting with implementing roguelike play with Torghast, and it hasn't been that succesful. But I think that's mostly due to two reasons, a) it's not a separate pillar, but instead a roadblock you need to pass to access the three real pillars ("choreghast") and b) class balance is rather nonexistent.

Could the next Torghast be a viable fourth solo pillar if it fully gained its own internal reward structure? Ie you don't have to run alts through if you don't want to, and it provided at least half-decent loot (possibly through the vault)?

Yeah, but you should understand, that it should be done Diablo-style. Not Torghast-style. Because, you know, usual rogue-like is challenge just for the sake of challenge. And we play RPG. Character progression - is our motivation to play.

[Strawberry]

I think I'm in the minority who enjoyed some roguelike/diablolike parts of the game, like random Titanforged gear and Suramar weekly.
Roguelike part of the game would probably because my favorite part of the game.

[Jessicka]

Why though? Rogues are a really unpopular class, what makes you think that making everyone have to do ‘Rogue stuff’ would go down well?

Also, remember they have to nerf Torghast a lot because half the specs in the game were hopelessly under equipped to do it. And even that didn’t make it “fun” for them as it was still tedious brute forcing at every step.

[Skylarking]

Torghast is more of a roguelite than roguelike I would think and don't have a problem with it as long as it is not mandatory for player progression.