Maybe It's Time to Ban All Goldsellers from The Game

[Relapses]

OP, just how do you suggest they ban all of the gold sellers? There is no feasible way since every time they do a ban wave, the gold sellers come back with different ways to circumvent anything done previously to stop them. There will always be gold sellers as long as there are those willing to commit fraud and purchase gold that was stolen from other players by thieves.

The same way people who think that gold selling (or really any interaction where a player exchanges real life capital for a service) is solvable: Hire an infinite amount of GMs to work 24/7 to tirelessly eliminate the very idea of gold selling from the vernacular. Nevermind the fact that this is 100% unrealistic and has many, many downsides, to these people Blizzard is a multi dollar company so all they have to do is throw money at a problem and it will disappear.

[Caerrona]

Blizzard cares, I care, many players who tries to enjoy the game cares so yeah if Blizzard is selling gold buy it from there, not from 3th party or you can get banned, your gold also erased, and yeah your real money would be toilet paper as well.

If some random person somewhere on some server buying gold makes you upset, you have mental issues that need to be sorted out.

[WowIsDead64]

Hello fellow azerothians. The title might be offensive but only to goldsellers, multiboxers, auction house/material botters. We have been trying to play the game since the beginning but those people we call CHEATERS have been ruining the game. I have been reporting almost every suspicious people who might be gold seller or botter and yes I have recieved a mail that confirms someone had been punished for CHEATING. We must report all CHEATERS and clean our game. Maybe if we show how much we despise them, Blizzard might take more serious steps to banning all of them. Would you like to support? Type your ideas

Yeah, I agree, that they exist, because there is demand. And this demand is created by Blizzard. There was actually attempt to beat gold sellers. I.e. to provide enough gold to every player via just "playing the game". Garrisons. Remember? Players didn't liked them.

[cparle87]

what do you mean "maybe it's time to ban all goldsellers from the game"? buying and selling gold for money is against TOS, if you see them (usually a level 1 character in a major city hub who is marked afk) then report them. You think Blizzard aren't taking it seriously?

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carry services aren't a form of cheating

It's more fun to bash at Blizzard by pretending that they're not fighting cheaters as best they can.

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If you did this, you'd lose 25% or more of your player base. No game will ever do that. They only ever ban the sellers.

As someone who likes buying gold(I also love that we get called cheaters), it has been around since the very first MMO ever, and it will never, ever, go away. Get over it. I'm sorry that in one hour of work, I can buy the equivalent of a month's worth of farming in gold. Trading one resource for another, is more than fair, no matter what it is as long as both parties are agreed in the exchange.

The problem is the resource you're getting USD for doesn't belong to you. The account, and everything on it including your mount, gear, and gold, belongs to Blizzard. Same goes for people who sell their accounts for money. You're selling something you don't own and don't have the right to sell for your own profit. It'd be like leasing a home then turning around and selling it to someone else. Only difference is it's less noticeable and the law is more difficult to enforce.

[agentsi]

Really? %25 of the player database? According to your insticts, right. You could buy from Blizzard. Much safer.3th party websites can scam you, they can steal your credit card or crypto wallet. Don't try to make it look like something safe. If you buy from 3th party, you take your own risk and I wouldn't be the person to cry, you would deserve whatever happens.

I've been buying and selling from the same 3rd party website for almost 20 years, you pay them, not the seller/buyer, and it's 100% legit. If the other party tries to scam someone, they're scamming the middle-man, and you're safe. But since it is set up that way, everyone is honest because if you aren't you're screwing over the 3rd party website, not the other person. Which only hurts you.

But also funny how you completely ignore the statement I made. Yes, I think 25%+ of the WoW player base buys gold. If they didn't, tokens wouldn't exist. And game websites in general that sell currency/armor/etc, wouldn't exist at all. But guess what, they do, and they're EVERYWHERE. It's a very good feeling to get achievement, then when you're done with a game sell the character, or armor, or w/e. I've sold so many WoW characters and Everquest characters on TLP servers. My friends and I play for a bit, we get bored, move on to another game, get some money back from our time spent.

Nothing about your argument holds up, you're reaching, but just look foolish. I'm sorry, but when you can buy 3 WoW tokens for only doing one hour of work, farming 500-600k gold just isn't fun. Or an efficient use of your time. And if this ruins games for you, then you shouldn't be playing them.

[Vakna]

For some reason I read OP's post in Trump's voice, sounds like something he would do with the bolding of words.

[agentsi]

While I agree it's impractical, I disagree that you're not hurting anyone. The person who gets their gold stolen from them by gold sellers gets hurt. The person who gets denied their spot in a group because your item level is higher (because you bought gold) gets hurt.

Nope, no one can do anything about it. But it's not victimless.

I can concede that I guess. While I've never been a victim of it myself, I do know of some folks who have been. But from what I understand, that is a very small fraction of the gold that circulates through the market.

[MrLachyG]

It's more fun to bash at Blizzard by pretending that they're not fighting cheaters as best they can.

oh I forgot what site we are on, I apologise

[agentsi]

It's more fun to bash at Blizzard by pretending that they're not fighting cheaters as best they can.

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The problem is the resource you're getting USD for doesn't belong to you. The account, and everything on it including your mount, gear, and gold, belongs to Blizzard. Same goes for people who sell their accounts for money. You're selling something you don't own and don't have the right to sell for your own profit. It'd be like leasing a home then turning around and selling it to someone else. Only difference is it's less noticeable and the law is more difficult to enforce.

You're completely off base with that analogy. You can sublease apartments, cars, houses. There's literally, an entire market that does that. You own that account, hence why it's yours, and "Blizzard will never ask you for your password". The only time you lose rights to that account is when they catch you doing something you're not supposed to. You bought the game, pay for the subscription, it's yours. You just don't physically own the IP rights of the game itself, which is understandable.

Please at least know what you're talking about before saying stupid shit like that.

[Caerrona]

You're completely off base with that analogy. You can sublease apartments, cars, houses. There's literally, an entire market that does that. You own that account, hence why it's yours, and "Blizzard will never ask you for your password". The only time you lose rights to that account is when they catch you doing something you're not supposed to. You bought the game, pay for the subscription, it's yours. You just don't physically own the IP rights of the game itself, which is understandable.

Please at least know what you're talking about before saying stupid shit like that.

You are incorrect, nothing on the account is yours. You can lose access to the account at any point for any reason as per the tos. Blizzard "owns" it.

[cparle87]

You're completely off base with that analogy. You can sublease apartments, cars, houses. There's literally, an entire market that does that. You own that account, hence why it's yours, and "Blizzard will never ask you for your password". The only time you lose rights to that account is when they catch you doing something you're not supposed to. You bought the game, pay for the subscription, it's yours. You just don't physically own the IP rights of the game itself, which is understandable.

Please at least know what you're talking about before saying stupid shit like that.

You're completely wrong. Did you ever actually read the EULA or the ToS? You are the End User. You have rights. Blizzard has rights. It's spelled out in black and white. Blizzard owns your account, everything on it, and can take it away or even delete it purely at their own discretion. It's just not good business to do it without a good reason. Your subscription entitles you to access the game servers and play the same as is, that is all. The "Blizzard will never ask you for your password" is purely meant as a warning against phishing scams from people who will try to claim to be Blizzard to steal your account. You've seen all the "We're the IRS send us money or we'll arrest you" scams lately? Those kinds of things are not new. Blizzard doesn't need your password, permission, or knowledge to access, alter, or delete your account.

[arkanon]

This is the war on drugs all over again.

Do you go after the users? or the suppliers? If you go after the suppliers, but demand remains high, there will ALWAYS be someone ready to step in when a seller is crushed. And just like the war on drugs, the only successful way to "win" is to combat the root cause - WHY do people buy gold?

The simple answer is "because its far easier than earning it legit" - WRONG - the ROOT cause is that the gold brings power, and saves a HUGE amount of time. With drug users, they target mental health and well being - NOT "hey drugs make people high, lets stop that" - with WoW, they need to remove that motivation, because while it remains, this will never end.

To be clear, no, i do not have a solution, other than 'remove the motivation'. One obvious solution is to make currency entirely non tradable, but then people would just trade goods / gear instead. So then you have to remove all BOE items, and then suddenly you have an underground piloted / account share problem.

Either way, i would like to congratulate DRUGS on winning the war on drugs - well done guys!

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You're completely wrong. Did you ever actually read the EULA or the ToS? You are the End User. You have rights. Blizzard has rights. It's spelled out in black and white. Blizzard owns your account, everything on it, and can take it away or even delete it purely at their own discretion. It's just not good business to do it without a good reason. Your subscription entitles you to access the game servers and play the same as is, that is all. The "Blizzard will never ask you for your password" is purely meant as a warning against phishing scams from people who will try to claim to be Blizzard to steal your account. You've seen all the "We're the IRS send us money or we'll arrest you" scams lately? Those kinds of things are not new. Blizzard doesn't need your password, permission, or knowledge to access, alter, or delete your account.

From memory, account closures, suspensions, bans etc can be implemented "for any reason, or no reason". Im sure the wording has changed, but yes, Blizzard own everything on your account.

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Please at least know what you're talking about before saying stupid shit like that.

Ironic, considering how "off base" and wrong you are - Blizzard own everything on your account - the items, the characters, the gold, EVERYTHING. Additionally, they can close or suspend an account for any reason, or no reason at all. They dont even need to tell you WHY they have entirely canceled your account.

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hence why it's yours, and "Blizzard will never ask you for your password".

So wrong. So very, very wrong. Netflix, my ISP, my power company; they ALL say the same thing - they will never ask for your password. They even have a secondary 'password' that they might ask you to enter on the phone - like a 4 digit number for example. This has nothing to do with what you claim, and absolutely 100% to do with phishing attempts.

[cparle87]

From memory, account closures, suspensions, bans etc can be implemented "for any reason, or no reason". Im sure the wording has changed, but yes, Blizzard own everything on your account.

This is a case of I feel of laws not keeping up with technology. We already have laws on the books that selling property that isn't yours is a crime. We even distinguish how severe a crime it is by the value of the property, like the line between larceny and grand larceny or a misdemeanor from a felony. Gold sellers and account sellers have applied their own cash value to the things they're selling illicitly.

Do you think laws will ever catch up to seriously punish people who do these things? Are electronics companies pushing for laws to recognize their intellectual property as something that can be stolen and sold illicitly? If so then what lobby would rise up to try to prevent it? Interesting food for thought.

I know people will try to come in and try to claim that it's virtual property the creators can always make more or that it's a victimless crime or blah blah. But the emergence of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have shown that you CAN apply real life money to abstract concepts. How is 5,000,000 WoW gold different from an account with titles or mounts you can't get any more any different from a bitcoin?

[Stormxraven]

If it was easy to ban these guys it would have been done already, there are so many and they always find a way round restrictions. like botters they don't care if they get banned they use throw away accounts and get a new one if it does get banned. That said i would like to see faster reactions banning the botters i reports - ive seen the same ones run around for weeks after i reported them.

[arkanon]

This is a case of I feel of laws not keeping up with technology. We already have laws on the books that selling property that isn't yours is a crime. We even distinguish how severe a crime it is by the value of the property, like the line between larceny and grand larceny or a misdemeanor from a felony. Gold sellers and account sellers have applied their own cash value to the things they're selling illicitly.

Do you think laws will ever catch up to seriously punish people who do these things? Are electronics companies pushing for laws to recognize their intellectual property as something that can be stolen and sold illicitly? If so then what lobby would rise up to try to prevent it? Interesting food for thought.

I know people will try to come in and try to claim that it's virtual property the creators can always make more or that it's a victimless crime or blah blah. But the emergence of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have shown that you CAN apply real life money to abstract concepts. How is 5,000,000 WoW gold different from an account with titles or mounts you can't get any more any different from a bitcoin?

Good question, and im really not sure. If im honest, I just think it is not worth pursuing by acti-blizzard. MAYBE if they found a large scale operation with structure - leaders, bosses - people with money where they might actually be able to recover legal fees. The problem seems similar to the early days before the RICO laws - they will just throw some kid under the bus and carry on like nothing happened.

I said it in my post above my reply to you - I honestly dont know what the solution is, but, i am very confident that it will address the MOTIVATION - the reason people feel compelled to purchase gold in the first place, rather than the symptom - buying gold.

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If it was easy to ban these guys it would have been done already, there are so many and they always find a way round restrictions. like botters they don't care if they get banned they use throw away accounts and get a new one if it does get banned. That said i would like to see faster reactions banning the botters i reports - ive seen the same ones run around for weeks after i reported them.

This all attempts to address and target the SELLERS, but again ignores the root cause - the motivation to buy gold in the first place. Do you not think that is the only solution? to remove the motivation to purchase gold? Its like trying to get all the drug dealers off the street - its entirely impossible through targeting the sellers - chop one down and two more take their place.

[Relapses]

I said it in my post above my reply to you - I honestly dont know what the solution is, but, i am very confident that it will address the MOTIVATION - the reason people feel compelled to purchase gold in the first place, rather than the symptom - buying gold.

There's no way to remove that motivation unless you want Blizzard to change how the game functions on a fundamental level. Boosting and gold selling isn't a problem that's bad enough to warrant such a solution.

[arkanon]

There's no way to remove that motivation unless you want Blizzard to change how the game functions on a fundamental level. Boosting and gold selling isn't a problem that's bad enough to warrant such a solution.

I agree and disagree. I agree with what you are saying that it would require a fundamental shift in design philosophy. I also agree that BLIZZARD do not consider the 'problem' big enough, or worth these actions. Im not convinced that the playerbase agrees. Obviously, for the problem to be a problem, many are buying, and therefore many people either dont consider it a problem, or are just "ok" with the problem.

Blizzard have said many times that quite often, what the community "want" is not best for the game, and I agree. I personally consider this one of those situations, where just because many partake in it, that doesnt mean its "good" or even "acceptable. Like i have said a couple of times, i dont know what the solution is, i just know, from history, that to 'fix' the issue, we need to find what the root cause is, and address THAT, not just blindly attack those involved, either as a supplier, or a user.

I would quote the user, but the thread was closed - just yesterday someone claimed that "wow is only P2W if you consider a guild paying $4000 to buy an advantage you would never be able to obtain in game to be P2W" - this was said in defense of wow, saying its clearly not P2W. I think this says everything we need to say about the situation; "WoW is only P2W if you consider buying player power through cash to be P2W".

[TheRevenantHero]

Let it go my friend.. enjoy your game, and ignore those who are buying it. The more money company has the better production quality we'll get.

lmfao you actually believe this? BfA and SL have been disasters despite all the money Blizzard has at its disposal. No. The more money Blizzard gets, the more they can create shop mounts that look better than everything in game.

[Paperfox]

Blizz makes money from every token sold. There is no way that they will be willing to lose that income.

[Mysterymask]

Ahh Ok lets ban gold sellers..

"Ban the Account" They make another one
"Ban the IP" VPNs exist
"Ban the Hardware" Cyber Cafe's exist and alot of them make enough money that a $200 Chomebook is nothing
"Ban the Credit Card" Wal-Mart and prepaid cards exist
"Ban the name" Prepaid cards exist
"Force new customers to use an scan of an ID" What kinda draconian bullshit are you saying to play a fucking video game, also stops kids who don't have IDs from playing
"Hire more Customer Service Reps to ban them" Money required to do that > Money they will make keeping them out not in the cards....I can go into a huge tirade on what that would entail but I already have and ya'll don't care.

You want to remove them..remove the demand
UNFORTUNATELY removing the demand would mean literally removing things that make wow wow. Since this is an online co-operative game people want stuff and are willing to do things to get stuff.