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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I was pretty certain it was ultimately going to prove to be Argus, personally speaking, but it was definitely still open to speculation and different possibilities. Argus fits the timing and the power-scale necessary, whereas Xavius and Gul'dan only fit the timing. But it was equally possible it could've been something entirely else, perhaps something not even native to the physical universe, such as an as-yet unrevealed weapon in the Jailer's arsenal.
    Is there any actual confirmation it was Argus still? Because the Denathius version still makes a lot more sense and the role of Argus in this questline seems to be to co-opt the new Arbiter template, without the statement that he was also used to knock out the previous one. Denathrius had the color scheme, he's associated with the drought in quest text and the idea that he'd sucked up enough anima to overload the Arbiter's RAM is at least something that the Bald Man could conceivably plan for, whereas the Argus' mechanics are impossibly contrived.

    Pretty much the only plot point made more coherent if it's Argus is explaining why it was so piss-easy for us and the Army of Light to traipse through the Legion's homeworld, by way of Lothraxion and the Legion Dreadlords coordinating to stay out of each other's way. But that aspect is pure fanwank.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-12-22 at 02:20 PM.
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  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I was pretty certain it was ultimately going to prove to be Argus, personally speaking, but it was definitely still open to speculation and different possibilities. Argus fits the timing and the power-scale necessary, whereas Xavius and Gul'dan only fit the timing. But it was equally possible it could've been something entirely else, perhaps something not even native to the physical universe, such as an as-yet unrevealed weapon in the Jailer's arsenal.
    This was also considered and its still not a weird idea.

    Its actually.. imo, a much more exciting idea. The possibilities to make the jailer more exciting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Is there any actual confirmation it was Argus still? Because the Denathius version still makes a lot more sense and the role of Argus in this questline seems to be to co-opt the new Arbiter template, without the statement that he was also used to knock out the previous one. Denathrius had the color scheme, he's associated with the drought in quest text and the idea that he'd sucked up enough anima to overload the Arbiter's RAM is at least something that the Bald Man could conceivably plan for, whereas the Argus' mechanics are impossibly contrived.

    Pretty much the only plot point made more coherent if it's Argus is explaining why it was so piss-easy for us and the Army of Light to traipse through the Legion's homeworld, by way of Lothraxion and the Legion Dreadlords coordinating to stay out of each other's way. But that aspect is pure fanwank.
    I think the confirmation only came in 9.2 campaign quest where you get vision or something from argus.

    It was only recent, hence saying it was beyond confirmed is bs.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-12-22 at 02:20 PM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I think the confirmation only came in 9.2 campaign quest where you get vision or something from argus.

    It was only recent, hence saying it was beyond confirmed is bs.
    I saw the 9.2 caps at the start of the thread adn they only reference what is being doen at this very moment. Does the quest clarify that Argus was also used to deactivate the Arbiter at the start? Because otherwise, this whole thread is pure conjecture, albeit not as galling as the one with Sylvanas talking about Arthas.

    As said, the Denathrius idea is the one that makes the most sense and seems to be confirmed with characters blaming Denathrius for the drought, having the orb be red and overloading things with anima being seen before. It's also coherent in that "Gather anima until you have enough to deactivate the robot." is an achievable, predictable plan that could easily pass under the radar that characters can accomplish without being meta-aware.

    By contrast, the Argus thing has the benefit of it being a soul and him being red in mythic in its favor, but it overflows with problems. The text implies that Argus is laden with Death Magic, which fair enough, he's death-associated anyway and that's why he went to the Shadowlands. Fair enough, we know that can be done, Sargeras was fel-infused in a similar way. But while Argus being it makes sense, the steps to reach the point hinge not just on the Nathrezim setting him up right under Sargeras' nose, which is a double retcon and then to contrive a situation where a third party kills Argus. It's a chain of events that no one can conceivably predict. Even if Argus was just naturally death-attuned the way Eonar is or that it was done without the Dreadlords, which are also possible, it'd still require basing the crux of the Bald Man's objective on having people go into the heart of Sargeras's sanctum and defeat a titan one on one. It's pure absurdity. Salvaging his soul after he's already dead to break the template is much more moderate and plausible. Which is why it's likely not the case.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  4. #244
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    Just give it 10 years and maybe they'll get around to it..
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I saw the 9.2 caps at the start of the thread adn they only reference what is being doen at this very moment. Does the quest clarify that Argus was also used to deactivate the Arbiter at the start? Because otherwise, this whole thread is pure conjecture, albeit not as galling as the one with Sylvanas talking about Arthas.

    As said, the Denathrius idea is the one that makes the most sense and seems to be confirmed with characters blaming Denathrius for the drought, having the orb be red and overloading things with anima being seen before. It's also coherent in that "Gather anima until you have enough to deactivate the robot." is an achievable, predictable plan that could easily pass under the radar that characters can accomplish without being meta-aware.

    By contrast, the Argus thing has the benefit of it being a soul and him being red in mythic in its favor, but it overflows with problems. The text implies that Argus is laden with Death Magic, which fair enough, he's death-associated anyway and that's why he went to the Shadowlands. Fair enough, we know that can be done, Sargeras was fel-infused in a similar way. But while Argus being it makes sense, the steps to reach the point hinge not just on the Nathrezim setting him up right under Sargeras' nose, which is a double retcon and then to contrive a situation where a third party kills Argus. It's a chain of events that no one can conceivably predict. Even if Argus was just naturally death-attuned the way Eonar is or that it was done without the Dreadlords, which are also possible, it'd still require basing the crux of the Bald Man's objective on having people go into the heart of Sargeras's sanctum and defeat a titan one on one. It's pure absurdity. Salvaging his soul after he's already dead to break the template is much more moderate and plausible. Which is why it's likely not the case.
    I agree on the bolded part, It made alot of sense. Even more so then Argus. I still think the Argus thing is a tad weird, but I guess we could have known because he was the death titan lol. I guess that was the hint...

    I don't think it clarifies how the arbiter broke.. just that argus has something to do with it. I should rewatch the video.. i think they posted it on wowhead couple days ago.

  6. #246
    Since none of the other images say "echo" in their name I'm banking on a portion of Argus, potentially the soul itself while the power drained from it by the titans was what was used to imprison Sargeras.

    Or obviously the much more concerning implication, there is only one. Illidan hasn't been returning my texts as of late. Anyone checked in on him?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
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  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The issue with Argus was the question of why/how he was in the Shadowlands to even strike the Arbiter
    Using this opportunity to repeat: Argus being in the Shadowlands, passing through Oribos IS the issue, the thing that broke the Arbiter.
    The "how" is also easy to explain (for a Fantasy universe), he'd been pumped full of Death energies for dozens of millenia, steering him to the Shadowlands after his demise, as well as Fel to sever his connection to Order.
    This combination of World Soul (immensely more Anima or equivalent than mortal souls) and Fel disrupted the Arbiter.
    I'd even say, the Nathrezim likely planned to "fatten up" Argus for a couple thousand years more, so that this World Soul, completely under the sway of the Jailer, could have just straight up taken over the Arbiter instead of just disabling her. The attempt to take over the new Arbiter is thus an alteration/remainder of that original plan.
    Last edited by Nathanyel; 2021-12-22 at 05:06 PM.
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  8. #248
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    Using this opportunity to repeat: Argus being in the Shadowlands, passing through Oribos IS the issue, the thing that broke the Arbiter.
    The "how" is also easy, he'd been pumped full of Death energies for dozens of millenia, steering him to the Shadowlands after his demise, as well as Fel to sever his connection to Order.
    This combination of World Soul (immensely more Anima or equivalent than mortal souls) and Fel disrupted the Arbiter.
    I'd even say, the Nathrezim likely planned to "fatten up" Argus for a couple thousand years more, so that this World Soul, completely under the sway of the Jailer, could have just straight up taken over the Arbiter instead of just disabling her. The attempt to take over the new Arbiter is thus an alteration/remainder of that original plan.
    I'm referring to the speculation occurring before Shadowlands had even properly started, not the speculation that occurred much later on.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm referring to the speculation occurring before Shadowlands had even properly started, not the speculation that occurred much later on.
    Oh I get that, and I didn't mean to imply you thought otherwise, I just wanted to repeat that, and quoting this bit of your comment seemed like a good starting-off point
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

  10. #250
    Xavius was a nobody, who actually seriously thought he'd be connected to the whole downfall of the Shadowlands?

    Especially when we had a contender who was literally called 'the Death Titan' who was the same shade of red as the bolt, chronologically accurate, and was an unprecedented Titan-kill? I mean come on.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Xavius was a nobody, who actually seriously thought he'd be connected to the whole downfall of the Shadowlands?

    Especially when we had a contender who was literally called 'the Death Titan' who was the same shade of red as the bolt, chronologically accurate, and was an unprecedented Titan-kill? I mean come on.
    I'm not even tempted to speculate on anything related to the deactivation of the Arbiter. Because we don't know how it really works, We understood very early in the expansion that th Arbiter was a living entity powered by the Jailer's heart and we are shown it can scan your whole potential and life decisions in less than a heartbeat.

    What forces has the power over the Arbiter or what force can be tempted by its seat are questions to which we've had no answer, therefore the writer can come up with any name out their hat the moment they are able to tie it to a red bolt of Arbiter power outage.

    So Xavius, Argus, Denathrius, Alternate timeline Zalazane, the Red cross, whatever they deem interesting to start a new plot... I'm only interested in how they bring this up

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    As said, the Denathrius idea is the one that makes the most sense and seems to be confirmed with characters blaming Denathrius for the drought, having the orb be red and overloading things with anima being seen before. It's also coherent in that "Gather anima until you have enough to deactivate the robot." is an achievable, predictable plan that could easily pass under the radar that characters can accomplish without being meta-aware.

    I saw this heacannon only on a particular discord and it bothered me for several reasons :

    1- If the Arbiter itself would be enough to stop the anima flow in the shadowlands, Zovaal would have bent the whole realm on its knees when he rebelled, because he obviously would stop the anima flow. So no, deactivating the arbiter is not what made the drought in the first place. Revendreth probably have emergency reserves for all the realms in case of trouble.

    2- Denathrius and Revendreth host souls that does not belong to revendreth. They refine their anima to send them back to the arbiter so she can dispatch them to their destined realm. So revendreth stored anima, and Denathrius hoarded it when the Jailer made its move. He made the drought at this exact moment. Considering the quantity of Anima he got, he may have more than a year reserve which could have prevented a drought in case the Arbiter went offline. So, the Accuser is legitimate to blame Denathrius for the Drought, only because he hoarded anima. Nowhere it's been stated that Denathrius was responsible for the Arbiter's downfall. I never interpretated her accusation has " he put the Arbiter down " because there is a difference between the drought and the Arbiter's status.


    3- The Arbiter went "asleep", she stirred several time. It's not an anima bolt that put her down because it'd be a permanent effect. She was clearly under some spell / conflict that made her unable to do anything. Now that we have the Argus explanation, it makes more sense. Moreover, if it would have been a simple blast of anima, everybody would have noticed it since it clearly passed through all of oribos and closed all the gates.

    4- I never trusted the Xavius idea because it'd mean that the whole plan of the Jailer required nobodys from Azeroth coming into the Emerald nightmare to succed in slaying somebody that came from nowhere ( in the Jailer PoV ) and whose anima would not be sufficient to provoke a whole breaking of the shadowlands system. However, Argus was surrounded by dreadlord, and probably made by dreadlords ( or death infused by them ) and at a simple command of the Jailer they maybe would've been able to kill it or send him back to the Shadowlands somehow. But Like Xavius, I still wait an explanation as how the Jailer knew we would defeat Argus, unless the whole Legion downfall was orchestrated by the dreadlords and they somehow guided us to this point.
    Last edited by Engal; 2021-12-24 at 08:07 AM.

  13. #253
    There are a lot of analysis on this thread that are based on :
    - Jailer planned the Arbiter's demise
    - Arbiter power outage caused the anima drought
    - Xavius is a nobody (I take it as he's a powerless creature compared to an Argus, Sargeras or Jailer)
    These are very far from the truth. The Jailer didn't need any planning, he's been imprisoned for eons in the maw waiting for opportunities. Denathrius has been the mastermind behind every actions in and out the Shadowlands. He is the one responsible for the anima drought as it is amongst his duties to distribute this resource to the other realms.

    And when it comes to Xavius, it's complicated as it's a Knaak's character... therefore he could be as powerful as Il'gynoth or even stronger if you take into account that he manages to corrupt the tear of Elune and use it as a weapon to mind control and doom Ysera beyond the realm of reality.
    I'm not a fan of this guy, he's got the worst introduction in Legion with Malfurion taunting him in Darkheart Thicket. But he is clearly not a nobody.

  14. #254
    Blizzard has a habit of doing big story things and not really explaining them.

    The simplest and most coherent explanation I can think of is:

    1) the Titans sapped a bunch of anima out of Argus's soul to bind Sargeras

    2) what was left over was sent to the Shadowlands, and being a titan world soul it wasn't something the Arbiter was equipped to deal with so it deactivated

    3) Argus' soul was sent to the Shadowlands instead of wherever Titans go because the dreadlords spent thousands of years infecting Argus with death alignment magic (we know a being's alignment and thus their death process can be changed if they are inundated with enough magic of that type, eg the Eredar and Fel = Twisting Nether)

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I'm not even tempted to speculate on anything related to the deactivation of the Arbiter. Because we don't know how it really works, We understood very early in the expansion that th Arbiter was a living entity powered by the Jailer's heart and we are shown it can scan your whole potential and life decisions in less than a heartbeat.

    What forces has the power over the Arbiter or what force can be tempted by its seat are questions to which we've had no answer, therefore the writer can come up with any name out their hat the moment they are able to tie it to a red bolt of Arbiter power outage.

    So Xavius, Argus, Denathrius, Alternate timeline Zalazane, the Red cross, whatever they deem interesting to start a new plot... I'm only interested in how they bring this up
    Huh? They already confirmed it was Argus.

  16. #256
    so which Kyrian carried a titan to Shadowlands for judgement?

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by zhero View Post
    so which Kyrian carried a titan to Shadowlands for judgement?
    I wonder if we give a Bomb to a Kirin, do they carry it too?
    So stupid are they designed?

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by zhero View Post
    so which Kyrian carried a titan to Shadowlands for judgement?
    Death aligned creatures, such as DKs, can enter the shadowlands without the aid of Kyrians.
    And since Argus was filled to the brim with death energies (his filename even was "death titan") it can be assumed that he went "home" as dying cosmic-aligbed creatures tend to do.

    Additionally: I seem to recall more powerful demons being janked further into the nether upon return, it stands to reason that this would indeed mean that Argus turned into a homing missile for the most central reaches of the plane of death, as there is nothing more powerful than a titan on the mortal plane.
    Last edited by loras; 2021-12-24 at 04:04 PM.
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  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Lucky for you that we are still in Afrasiabi-era lore then, since Shadowlands was already planed and work been going on for awhile when Alex was removed and Danuser got promoted.
    no, the 'general' idea exist since ages, like how blizz planned since classic wow exps up to MoP itself, however if u remember the very common 'leak' they for example didn't have plan to divide cata and mop, but be 1 single exp
    so Afrasiabi at most had idea of a post-life exp, but 99% of details is surely not his work, specially since he isn't known to have a waifu pillow make her center of everything
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  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    I swear people who keep saying that shit about "lazy writing" and "consistency" just don't read the lore at all, but want to have a big opinion on it, basically stupidity.
    Argus being the reason why the Arbiter broke was the top theory all the way through the Shadowlands and it made sense in a lot of ways actually.

    Also, Blizzard is really screwing up themselves by releasing tid bits of lore through the PTR. Should just release all the lore in order with the patch itself.

    I am 100% confident that some people here would think the LOTR lore was lazy writing if it released today and ofc be mega smartasses about it.
    Bruh. The amount of inconsistencies and gaps that pop up in WoW's story are pretty damn unreal.

    Just for one example; Sylvanas went from a hesitant Warchief that didn't expect to be put in that position (which is known thanks to her own inner monologue in Before the Storm) to a manipulative master planner and partner of the Jailer in BfA, who basically had Vol'jin killed expressly so that Sylvanas could take the reins and enact their plan. So their plan to start the Fourth War depended upon her becoming the Warchief that she didn't expect to become? Big ol' inconsistency right there, and that first portrayal of Sylvanas and her motivations came right before BfA so it's not like they even have an excuse ala Metzen and the Draenei/Eredar debacle.

    You want to talk about people that don't read the lore? Well that apparently includes whoever was/is creating the direction of WoW's story.

    EDIT:
    This shit with the Arbiter and Argus may not be as egregious as the example above, but the fact that it's so open for interpretation and that there are some inconsistencies shows how poorly they defined their own lore and then executed a story based upon it.
    Last edited by Rexosaurus; 2021-12-24 at 05:05 PM.

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