we should not accept chore content without alternatives

[chiddie]

You do understand posts like these is why no one takes you guys seriously, right and why Devs are ignoring all of you, right?

Any decent player, will finish all the M0 dungeons pretty much in around 5 to 8 played hours after dinging 60, because all of that stuff is joke difficulty content and they are getting cleaved down with 50 ilvls lower, you do realize thats how people play the game right , or you do realize how easy the game is at that level, that you are supposed to be playing like that, right?

This is what you guys dont understand, you are so disconnect and so low skill level, which is why you are getting ignored, you have no idea what you are talking about, and its why the "Crying" always starts averagely 5 to 6 months after expansion launch, cause it takes you that long to do basic things, cause you waste so many hours to pointless content.

I am not denying you are having your fun, or whatever you are doing.

And thats also why they simply keep doing it, cause out of the millions of players coming and going, the majority are like you, and it doesnt make a difference what they do, it takes you guys so long to do things, that they make so much money, that it doesnt matter if its good or bad.

Have you ever thought even for a second that maybe there are people out there who don’t like the M+ system regardless its difficulty being near to zero below 10?

I healed to KSM in S1 all in pug and the bracket 13-15 was so awful people wise that in the end I got exhausted and quit the game.

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M+ is not designed for pugs. Thats a huge part of why its not in the LFD tool.

That you chose to pug content designed for organised groups and then complain about it being a bad experience is a you problem

Then the game should not allow anyone to play if he’s not in a guild or at least 50 active people at every hour.

Or prevent people who are not in these guilds to do a certain type of content.

It’s too easy to give lone wolves a chance and then blame them because “hei, the content is designed for guilds”.

[LordVargK]

Look at mythic+. People who never raided or did anything really ingame expect collectin stuff are annoyed that the evil elitist mythic+ and mythic raiding exist. Because it is in the game so they are entitled to clear it without any efford preferably without tlaking to anyone at all... because everyone else is toxic and evil and an elitist.

Well, that's probably because there is a time limited mount tied to m+ seasons. Something time limited is a nightmare for a collector. Time limited deals are a shady way to get engagement on Blizzard's part.

[NineSpine]

You do understand posts like these is why no one takes you guys seriously, right and why Devs are ignoring all of you, right?

Any decent player, will finish all the M0 dungeons pretty much in around 5 to 8 played hours after dinging 60, because all of that stuff is joke difficulty content and they are getting cleaved down with 50 ilvls lower, you do realize thats how people play the game right , or you do realize how easy the game is at that level, that you are supposed to be playing like that, right?

This is what you guys dont understand, you are so disconnect and so low skill level, which is why you are getting ignored, you have no idea what you are talking about, and its why the "Crying" always starts averagely 5 to 6 months after expansion launch, cause it takes you that long to do basic things, cause you waste so many hours to pointless content.

I am not denying you are having your fun, or whatever you are doing.

And thats also why they simply keep doing it, cause out of the millions of players coming and going, the majority are like you, and it doesnt make a difference what they do, it takes you guys so long to do things, that they make so much money, that it doesnt matter if its good or bad.

Unlike you, I’m not concerned with impressing anyone. I want a fun game to play and the game was fun when I could play the game the way I want to, and now it isn’t since they took that away.

But maybe you are right and the design principles that led to 12M players are garbage and the design principles of shadowlands are secretly brilliant despite a mass exodus of players from the game.

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YOU are the one who keeps talking about how random BGs and mythic zeros used to provide "long term progression", which they never did.

Again, M0 and random BGs have never been the endgame model. Stop acting like this is a new thing. Dungeons were always outshone by raids and battlegrounds always outshone by arenas and later rateds. The only time you could get top level gear from battlegrounds was in vanilla when it was rep tied. Acting like I'm deliberately misunderstanding and insulting me, not sure why you keep responding to me when you deliberately misrepresent or ignore what I'm saying in place of what you want me to be saying so you can say I'm wrong.

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You mean like how they added an honor system then battlegrounds then arenas then rated battlegrounds as an extention to there being nothing but wpvp in vanilla and heroic, then mythic, then keystone dungeons as an expansion of group pve content?

Why are you still talking about “top level gear”? Are you clicking my posts by accident and meaning to reply to someone else? Who is talking about top level gear? Let me know when you figure out how to address what I am actually saying rather than whatever phantom you are arguing with in your head.

I don’t know why I need to keep repeating this: I. Don’t. Care. If. Raids. Drop. Better. Gear. Than. Dungeons. It. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. What. We. Are. Talking. About.

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Have you ever thought even for a second that maybe there are people out there who don’t like the M+ system regardless its difficulty being near to zero below 10?

I healed to KSM in S1 all in pug and the bracket 13-15 was so awful people wise that in the end I got exhausted and quit the game

Nah guys like him cannot and will not ever get it. They are so obsessed with their overinflated ego from playing wow, which is sort of pathetic considering how inconsequential a video game is, that they cannot understand the idea that someone doesn’t care for challenging content in the game.

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I kind of wish the people who want WoW to be another version of FFXIV would just play FFXIV instead of clogging up these forums with constant reminders that their new preferred MMO "does {x} better". There's room enough in the MMO market for two different MMOs to offer two different experiences.

The frustration is because ff14 is simply based on wow circa wotlk, and it is obnoxious to look at how wow has thrown that design in the toilet.

[Swnem]

Even if there was challenge it wouldn't be fun. It would just be more annoying.
The problem isn't the difficulty, it's that you being forced to do it to be able to do the part you consider "fun".

[Relapses]

Sure, but this is more about the demographic overlap - which DOES exist.

There isn't just two entirely separate spheres of WoW stuff and FFXIV stuff. There are things both games can - and should - learn from each other. But also a lot of stuff they shouldn't try and make like the other, for sure.

There should be an overlap of people who understand that the two games provide different experiences, not what we have now: An overlap of players who are actively antagonistic towards one another because of the design differences.

[Sucralose]

There should be an overlap of people who understand that the two games provide different experiences, not what we have now: An overlap of players who are actively antagonistic towards one another because of the design differences.

I wonder though how do you separate the two? 9.2 seems to be the first step in properly doing so. For the first time in a very long time raiders and pvpers wont feel compelled to do world quests.

The question is now if those uninterested in harder content actually be happy without a carrot to chase that doesn't effect harder content.

[epigramx]

As long as it's also added to the cash shop so that the people who don't have skill can instead just pay for it.

No. Having more money than other people is not gaming.

[Nalam the Venom]

No. Having more money than other people is not gaming.

It’s just an alternative progression path.

Don’t have to be so serious about it.

[chiddie]

I kind of wish the people who want WoW to be another version of FFXIV would just play FFXIV instead of clogging up these forums with constant reminders that their new preferred MMO "does {x} better". There's room enough in the MMO market for two different MMOs to offer two different experiences.

But the problem is not this, the problem is people saying that everything in WoW is just fine for any type of players, that is just plain wrong.

[Relapses]

But the problem is not this, the problem is people saying that everything in WoW is just fine for any type of players, that is just plain wrong.

Even I don't think that, but I also don't think that broadening WoW's horizons to include every possible player is an achievable or reasonable goal to set for Blizzard. I get that players might prefer a certain experience WoW provided at some point that it no longer does but that's why we have Classic now.

[chiddie]

Even I don't think that, but I also don't think that broadening WoW's horizons to include every possible player is an achievable or reasonable goal to set for Blizzard. I get that players might prefer a certain experience WoW provided at some point that it no longer does but that's why we have Classic now.

Classic is not a solution, at least for me. Been there, done that, no desire in playing old content again.

[epigramx]

It’s just an alternative progression path.

Don’t have to be so serious about it.

It's not progress if they got the money from their parents.

[Relapses]

Classic is not a solution, at least for me. Been there, done that, no desire in playing old content again.

Then it sounds like the game moved on without you. Sucks, but it does happen sometimes. To give a personal anecdote, I quit for two years in Legion because the way the game was designed simply wasn't making me happy. I came back in BfA when I realized that I could play the game casually in small group content (M+) and I've been playing pretty regularly since.

[chiddie]

Then it sounds like the game moved on without you. Sucks, but it does happen sometimes. To give a personal anecdote, I quit for two years in Legion because the way the game was designed simply wasn't making me happy. I came back in BfA when I realized that I could play the game casually in small group content (M+) and I've been playing pretty regularly since.

Yeh, the game moved and I moved too, back to arpgs, I’m pretty “happy” atm, I resub for one month here and there to progress with the story and try some “new” stuff. Quite sad because I’m playing more or less regularly since D1 of EU Vanilla open beta (that’s 17 years ago) and I am somehow “fond” of the lore and the game, but the more time passes, the less time I have to play and I realized I wanna play something that satisfies me, actual WoW not being the case.

I suppose it’s how life goes.

[potis]

Unlike you, I’m not concerned with impressing anyone. I want a fun game to play and the game was fun when I could play the game the way I want to, and now it isn’t since they took that away.

But maybe you are right and the design principles that led to 12M players are garbage and the design principles of shadowlands are secretly brilliant despite a mass exodus of players from the game.

Again, you are making no sense, suddenly blabbering about and assuming i care about pixels, i simply pointed out how for the 100th time the last few years, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You people are so dense to understand the actual design changes are made for people like you, and you complain instead because you are simply that clueless about the game itself.

You dont even understand see the game has remained the same, because you do things so slowly that you cant comprehend you have been doing the same thing since the days of "glory of the game".

Because the whole "Campaign" system, evolved from attunements, to unlock by grinding reputation with dailies and "Kill the trash mobs of the raid for 2 months" to legendary campaigns of "FARM THIS DROP IN LFR FOR 2 MONTHS" to, "We will unlock 10% of the campaign each week for 2 months", somehow its different type of grind, because you feel its different.

It took you guys 5 years to figure out the last part, like it was any different from before, but yeah, you guys are so smart, the evil Blizzard corporate is stealing your money by timegating things!

And you think i care to impress anyone, i just show you how disconnected you are from how the game actually is meant to be played and i dont even have to do anything, you simply type it out yourself.

Either way, its Xmas, i have things to do, and you are so low on game knowledge that i really cant be bothered doing this with you for the 15th time the last few years.

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Sure, but this is more about the demographic overlap - which DOES exist.

There isn't just two entirely separate spheres of WoW stuff and FFXIV stuff. There are things both games can - and should - learn from each other. But also a lot of stuff they shouldn't try and make like the other, for sure.

What WoW is doing wrong, is that it did not cater to the new gen of gamers that are joining the game the last few years and have basically shaped the "RPG" genre part lately.

People grew up with a different mentality and experienced the game differently, for me WoW Vanilla has a very refreshing game compared to the shitshow of Asian MMOs from the 2002-2005 period with their endless grind.

People joining WoW now grew up with Skyrim and similar single player games, or ARPGs and similar things, its understandable how they will complain about a game like WoW, where its existence is to reach endgame and raid, and not do pointless Sidequests in order to outlevel the Main quest to make it easier, so yes, i totally understand how the now 20 year old buys WoW, plays a bit, reaches max level and is confused as to what to do cause thats not what he knows from a "RPG".

How people want WoW to be, is how i use Guild Wars 2, as my single player game experience, cause i know what WoW is about and i play it for its endgame content part, the raiding and the dungeons, not the story, i have GW2 for that.

I played ESO a bit 6 months ago, its similar, full on pointless single player game experience in a MMO, and FFXIV is the same, i cant play FFXIV cause i hate the art style and i never really liked JRPG elements, despite being asked way before it became famous from people i play with to try it out.

What WoW needs in order to cater to this new type of entitled spoiled "Gamers" is to convert all the old content into a storyline with scenarios, the work required for that is near impossible so its not surprising its not being done and they keep doing what they do best, raids.

[chiddie]

Again, you are making no sense, suddenly blabbering about and assuming i care about pixels, i simply pointed out how for the 100th time the last few years, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You people are so dense to understand the actual design changes are made for people like you, and you complain instead because you are simply that clueless about the game itself.

You dont even understand see the game has remained the same, because you do things so slowly that you cant comprehend you have been doing the same thing since the days of "glory of the game".

Because the whole "Campaign" system, evolved from attunements, to unlock by grinding reputation with dailies and "Kill the trash mobs of the raid for 2 months" to legendary campaigns of "FARM THIS DROP IN LFR FOR 2 MONTHS" to, "We will unlock 10% of the campaign each week for 2 months", somehow its different type of grind, because you feel its different.

It took you guys 5 years to figure out the last part, like it was any different from before, but yeah, you guys are so smart, the evil Blizzard corporate is stealing your money by timegating things!

And you think i care to impress anyone, i just show you how disconnected you are from how the game actually is meant to be played and i dont even have to do anything, you simply type it out yourself.

Either way, its Xmas, i have things to do, and you are so low on game knowledge that i really cant be bothered doing this with you for the 15th time the last few years.

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What WoW is doing wrong, is that it did not cater to the new gen of gamers that are joining the game the last few years and have basically shaped the "RPG" genre part lately.

People grew up with a different mentality and experienced the game differently, for me WoW Vanilla has a very refreshing game compared to the shitshow of Asian MMOs from the 2002-2005 period with their endless grind.

People joining WoW now grew up with Skyrim and similar single player games, or ARPGs and similar things, its understandable how they will complain about a game like WoW, where its existence is to reach endgame and raid, and not do pointless Sidequests in order to outlevel the Main quest to make it easier, so yes, i totally understand how the now 20 year old buys WoW, plays a bit, reaches max level and is confused as to what to do cause thats not what he knows from a "RPG".

How people want WoW to be, is how i use Guild Wars 2, as my single player game experience, cause i know what WoW is about and i play it for its endgame content part, the raiding and the dungeons, not the story, i have GW2 for that.

I played ESO a bit 6 months ago, its similar, full on pointless single player game experience in a MMO, and FFXIV is the same, i cant play FFXIV cause i hate the art style and i never really liked JRPG elements, despite being asked way before it became famous from people i play with to try it out.

What WoW needs in order to cater to this new type of entitled spoiled "Gamers" is to convert all the old content into a storyline with scenarios, the work required for that is near impossible so its not surprising its not being done and they keep doing what they do best, raids.

New players are not confused at all. They simply leave as soon as they understand that they can only progress doing group content in a big nice and friendly guild or doing boring and repetitive solo content. Also while every other game but mmorpgs is “boom I’m in” in WoW there are timegates everywhere and also automated lfg requires ridiculous waiting times (try to queue a random bias horde).

Also I don’t see outleveling content as a bad thing, it’s a core mechanic of EVERY single player (a)rpg out there, including Dark Souls and its brothers.

[NineSpine]

Again, you are making no sense, suddenly blabbering about and assuming i care about pixels, i simply pointed out how for the 100th time the last few years, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You people are so dense to understand the actual design changes are made for people like you, and you complain instead because you are simply that clueless about the game itself.

You dont even understand see the game has remained the same, because you do things so slowly that you cant comprehend you have been doing the same thing since the days of "glory of the game".

Because the whole "Campaign" system, evolved from attunements, to unlock by grinding reputation with dailies and "Kill the trash mobs of the raid for 2 months" to legendary campaigns of "FARM THIS DROP IN LFR FOR 2 MONTHS" to, "We will unlock 10% of the campaign each week for 2 months", somehow its different type of grind, because you feel its different.

It took you guys 5 years to figure out the last part, like it was any different from before, but yeah, you guys are so smart, the evil Blizzard corporate is stealing your money by timegating things!

And you think i care to impress anyone, i just show you how disconnected you are from how the game actually is meant to be played and i dont even have to do anything, you simply type it out yourself.

Either way, its Xmas, i have things to do, and you are so low on game knowledge that i really cant be bothered doing this with you for the 15th time the last few years.

My complaint is that gearing for the content I enjoy goes too fast, and your response is "YOU ARE TOO SLOW". It's so comically nonsensical that I don't really know what to do but laugh.

What WoW is doing wrong, is that it did not cater to the new gen of gamers that are joining the game the last few years and have basically shaped the "RPG" genre part lately.

People grew up with a different mentality and experienced the game differently, for me WoW Vanilla has a very refreshing game compared to the shitshow of Asian MMOs from the 2002-2005 period with their endless grind.

People joining WoW now grew up with Skyrim and similar single player games, or ARPGs and similar things, its understandable how they will complain about a game like WoW, where its existence is to reach endgame and raid, and not do pointless Sidequests in order to outlevel the Main quest to make it easier, so yes, i totally understand how the now 20 year old buys WoW, plays a bit, reaches max level and is confused as to what to do cause thats not what he knows from a "RPG".

How people want WoW to be, is how i use Guild Wars 2, as my single player game experience, cause i know what WoW is about and i play it for its endgame content part, the raiding and the dungeons, not the story, i have GW2 for that.

I played ESO a bit 6 months ago, its similar, full on pointless single player game experience in a MMO, and FFXIV is the same, i cant play FFXIV cause i hate the art style and i never really liked JRPG elements, despite being asked way before it became famous from people i play with to try it out.

What WoW needs in order to cater to this new type of entitled spoiled "Gamers" is to convert all the old content into a storyline with scenarios, the work required for that is near impossible so its not surprising its not being done and they keep doing what they do best, raids.

Or they could just do what all the other games (and wow used to) do: Make the game for the average player rather than starting with the hardcore and working backward.

[potis]

New players are not confused at all. They simply leave as soon as they understand that they can only progress doing group content in a big nice and friendly guild or doing boring and repetitive solo content. Also while every other game but mmorpgs is “boom I’m in” in WoW there are timegates everywhere and also automated lfg requires ridiculous waiting times (try to queue a random bias horde).

Also I don’t see outleveling content as a bad thing, it’s a core mechanic of EVERY single player (a)rpg out there, including Dark Souls and its brothers.

How is that different to what i said? 2000s games made us grow up with grinding and grouping up, 2010 games are literally the opposite with a mix of cash shop/skins etc, there is a massive cultural difference there.

WoW can be blamed to not adapting enough, they made it easier for everyone to experience the endgame in different difficulties, but they did not provide a storyline, which is what this new type of "Gamers" thinks WoW is about,. since it was RPG in the name.

[NineSpine]

How is that different to what i said? 2000s games made us grow up with grinding and grouping up, 2010 games are literally the opposite with a mix of cash shop/skins etc, there is a massive cultural difference there.

WoW can be blamed to not adapting enough, they made it easier for everyone to experience the endgame in different difficulties, but they did not provide a storyline, which is what this new type of "Gamers" thinks WoW is about,. since it was RPG in the name.

Then why do over a third of FF14 max level players complete the hard version of the raids?

[Relapses]

Then why do over a third of FF14 max level players complete the hard version of the raids?

Because it's easy as shit, lmfao.