[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Mace]

PREDICTIONS FOR SEASON 2


My prediction

Verin Matthwin is replaced by Moiraine Sedai for the Great Horn

AND/OR

Book 2 & 3 are merged into 1 season.

3 episodes for book 2, 5 for book 3

[Gumble]

Well therein lies the rub. What are some of the REALLY true-to-material adaptations out there? Some Warhammer animated stuff, or something? No one EXCEPT fans watches that, and that's what the producers are afraid of much more so than they are alienating SOME fans if it means bringing in lots of other, general viewers.

So, it depends on what you mean by "true-to-material". The best example I have right now (because we literally just watched it over again) is Harry Potter. Those movies are an ADAPTATION. They are not true to material in the sense you are implying. They change alot of things from the books, leave things out, etc.

HOWEVER.... what they do right is make the characters, the world, and the story FEEL like it is true to the books. The fans of the books feel like "holy shit there is the world I imagined and damn if they didn't do a good job of it". They FEEL like the movies are of the world they read about, even if there are changes to suit the movie medium. The changes are forgiven because such care was taken to make you feel like "this is Harry Potter world" that the fans were happy to get what they were given.


If we had been given Emond's Field through Baerlon that had actually looked and felt like the books, with characters that looked and felt like the books, where the time and energy was taken to make you CARE about them on the start of the journey, then changes later on would be alot easier for people to take. I really was able to survive right up until meeting Loial. How utterly pathetic and CHEAP he looks. That shows that they didn't even bother to try with this show. I compare that with how much care the Harry Potter movies took to make Hagrid look like what the book readers expected. The size and presence he has in every scene that makes the fans go "HOLY SHIT there he is". For Rafe of Time, I see their characters and go "holy shit you didn't even try".


You don't have to translate the books word for word (Shogun is about the only book I've ever seen that did that), but you need to have someone making it who cares to make it look and feel like the source material so much that fans see it as "that thing they love". And Harry Potter is a perfect example of "you can please the fans and still make billions of dollars selling to non-book readers". It can be done, but you have to have someone who actually loves the thing they are making, and Rafe ain't it.

[Xath]

I don't mind the changes. I liked the foundation that changed white men for black women, but the story was interesting and it had good special effects.

Meanwhile those of us who like decent writing ended up skipping terminus scenes and only watching Empire ones since Terminus dragged on eternally but Empire was at least interestingin terms of characterstudy. I'm scared to see what they will do to the mule storyline.

[Logwyn]

The other day my brother came to me with his phone, showing me the scene of Rand's mother fighting off her attackers while in the very process of giving birth, asking me "How can you think the show is garbage? She's a badass!"

I'm still not sure why people are all up in arms about an Aiel fighting like that while pregnant. I would have expected it after they are portrayed in the book.

[Xath]

I'm still not sure why people are all up in arms about an Aiel fighting like that while pregnant. I would have expected it after they are portrayed in the book.

Because it didn't happen. Tigraine even staying was super irregular any Aiel women who got pregnant were expected to go home they certainly weren't fighting. She died in childbirth.

[Gumble]

Because it didn't happen. Tigraine even staying was super irregular any Aiel women who got pregnant were expected to go home they certainly weren't fighting. She died in childbirth.

Rawr wo-man can fight Matrix-style while giving birth. She's a princess, Aiel warrior, and Charlie's Angel. That people even thought that looked good.... lol

[Mace]

Well therein lies the rub. What are some of the REALLY true-to-material adaptations out there? Some Warhammer animated stuff, or something? No one EXCEPT fans watches that, and that's what the producers are afraid of much more so than they are alienating SOME fans if it means bringing in lots of other, general viewers.

Of course, that equation doesn't always work out. Cinematic history is riddled with failed adaptations that alienated fans AND failed to bring in non-fans (remember the Artemis Fowl movie? Yeah, nobody does), and there is absolutely some causation as well correlation. The problem lies in identifying where, precisely.

Lord of the Rings did an excellent job. Yes, picky fans are always going to be disappointed with adaptations, especially if you had no changes.

But Lord of the rings is a 10/10 book with a 10/10 adaptation, and the two are diffrent, with some minor changes, no where on the level of change in the Wheel of Time.

Jackson comments in the making of the Fellowship and the whole project start, we decided to go to portray waht the author did and stay true to it rather than our oown interpretations and views on how we should change. Modernising it.. and it worked like a charm.

Because the original is what people loved, capture that properly , stay true to that in the way the authordid it, and bring it to a screen, turst me there is a reason why millions loved it, if it can be that popular as a book, imagine if a well done series or film of the same is done.

Except, this isn't as good a film/series of the book. sadly.

Well, to an extent. There's a reason they keep doing it - they think it works. Whether it does nor not is hard to gauge properly, because it's difficult to find proper comparisons. And you say it "annoys people" and it does, but it also brings in people - how those stack up against each other is difficult to determine. For me, it's a flawed approach to begin with, because it presupposes an exchange that isn't real: the choice IS NOT between "woke" and "well written", and people who frame it that way (on either end of the agenda spectrum) do not understand a thing about writing. That aggravates me.

it does aggravate me too, and sometimes it is overplayed for sure, but sometimes you see it. WoT is a clasic example, where things were changed that didn't need to be change, for no reason except cultural/social engineering to amke it more femme.

There is no adaptation reason to do so. Why even go with Moiraine as the main character - it is quite the shift.

still, the reason they keep going with it, is because they are evangelising and conducting a crusade, there are activists holdingg key jobs and positions perpetuating this.

COvid has made it easy to hide what failure this is, and most of these make enough moneyfor you to lie to your shareholders and investors that it is successful, and the reason it isn't as successful as they hoped is becasue of toxic fandom...tehse guys lie to keep their job.

Some of them are such big believesrs in their ideology they do not believe they are wrong or that they are unpopular and the reason people don't like their work is because of all the social messaging and changing that seems so shoved down.

they want to remake everything, show that they are on top whether it's women or lgbt because the activist feels this is the only way.. it's a far lefty commu way of thinking, you gotta completley destroy and go for the jugular otherwise these people will never respect you, listen oto you or accept you etc.. they bring their politics in to entertainment, I am /was one of them I know how it works. You inflitrate, you set up, and you change. you're not doing it for money becuase you have higher ideals,

the studios want moeny, that's all they care about, but these IPS are so big, that they can hide significnat levels of unpopular or disastisfaction by pushing out mediocre quality products, and the name buys itself.

For example, even in some of the rogrma sthe messaging has been off, the show or movie has been entertaining enough. It was watchable, I gave it a 6/10 - but it didn't have the magic or the spark of it's predecessors that were a 10/10 - thing is most peole would see it, enjoy it enough, but they aren't inspiring to the levels of adoration because what theya re producing just isn't good enough atm.

They really know how to cover their arses to the board, they are sleek, and want to keep their jobs, and want to change you and I.

they know if every entertainment prodcution is the same, peoel will eventually accept it as normal, and job complete. However when the next massive IP does a massive hit wihtout any of their nonsense, giving good written scripts.. then we'll see.

You see it's not having diversity or representation that is a problem in and of itself, it's that these people care more about that than making a good movie or show, or program.. so are rather pushing thier message than making good quality stuff. At least that is what I'm finding. Theya ren't good at their jobs as they think, because they are more concerned about social engineering than well you know a good story.

Jordan wrote an excelelnt story, that i think peopel of all races, genders, even orientation can relate to and enjoy, you don't need to change a thing or remove a thing, he has it all there, just show it well.

did they? No, they had to change change change, andsome of those changes, or rather many, were not because of time. It's sad.

I'm not even sure it IS so hard. I'm far from saying "just do the books, verbatim", but one would think that a writer of proven high caliber can be trusted with the narrative they set up. Details need to be fiddled with to pay proper respect to the new medium, to be sure, but thinking that fundamental plots need to be redesigned borders on arrogance on the part of the showrunners.

The real problem, in my view, is something else, though. People still have a perception that television audiences are dumb, or at least dumber than book audiences. They think that unless you simplify everything, and make everything explicit, and scream it at them with a bullhorn, people won't "get it". This I find offensive, and I'm quite frankly tired of being treated like an idiot every time I watch something on a screen. You think subtlety, and complexity, and intricacy don't work for a TV show? THINK AGAIN, PRODUCERS.

I think you have a lot of truth here, and right about a lot of this. I have never thought you can just do a book verbatim when you are translating into a film or show.. but you can always tell when the standard or translation is excellent (LotR) or very good (GoT/Harry Potter) and when it's way off. (WoT) , but despite it being way off, the series actually still was eye catching enough. compare that to the Sword of Truth series that was just rubbish..changed so much from th esource material and was also quite bad. And they had the author working with them, they just over rode all his objections and di waht they wanted.. it was garbage in the end.

[Xath]

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...3w6j16g,Arcane

btw this is what an actual successful show looks like in terms of trend even if the Witcher S2 honestly isn't amazing it has solid acting cinematography and good effects so it will do well. If Wheel had released even a month earlier it would have been absolutely crushed by arcane a month later by the Witcher. Instead it got to tie with yellowstone for a while at the top of the streaming charts.

[rhorle]

Because it didn't happen. Tigraine even staying was super irregular any Aiel women who got pregnant were expected to go home they certainly weren't fighting. She died in childbirth.

In a life or death situation no Aiel would just sit down and die. The books clearly indicate the maidens she was with got separated from the army and all killed so there would have been some kind of fighting involved. To the extent of the show? Probably not. But it is such a minor detail to nitpick over.

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it's so they don't look like slaves that's why they don't have chains either.

To be fair the book does allow them the collars to be used with out a chain but it wasn't discovered until later. It will be interesting to see if they include the whole dilemma around using the one power Sul'dam run into because of the revelation of how they actually work.

[Xath]

In a life or death situation no Aiel would just sit down and die. The books clearly indicate the maidens she was with got separated from the army and all killed so there would have been some kind of fighting involved. To the extent of the show? Probably not. But it is such a minor detail to nitpick over.

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To be fair the book does allow them the collars to be used with out a chain but it wasn't discovered until later. It will be interesting to see if the include the whole dilemma around using the one power Sul'dam run into because of that revelation.

Aiel would literally pull on a veil before clothing when woken up in an attack situation but hey Tigraine don't need to no veil. Stop trying to justify show absurdity with stuff you crib from the wiki it isn't fooling anyone.

Also if you want to actually see what a show with legit hype looks like here you go. Compare Witcher and Arcane to Wheel hell Cowboy Bebop had more people looking for it for a bit.

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...3w6j16g,Arcane

[rhorle]

Aiel would literally pull on a veil before clothing when woken up in an attack situation but hey Tigraine don't need to no veil. Stop trying to justify show absurdity with stuff you crib from the wiki it isn't fooling anyone.

Moving goalposts. I wasn't talking about having a veil on or not nor did you mention that as the problem. The discussion was on a pregnant Aiel fighting.

[Xath]

Moving goalposts. I wasn't talking about having a veil on or not nor did you mention that as the problem. The discussion was on a pregnant Aiel fighting.

Which also didn't happen because Tigraine being there as a pregnant woman was super uncommon and she died giving birth not due to battle wounds.

[rhorle]

Which also didn't happen because Tigraine being there as a pregnant woman was super uncommon and she died giving birth not due to battle wounds.

Just because it was super uncommon doesn't mean she wasn't there in the middle of the battlefield. She was close enough to battle that her group of maidens could be cut off and slaughtered. Do you think she would have twiddled her thumbs while that happened? You nitpick about a woman fighting when that was the prophecy she was following. The lack of a veil, and other things, are far bigger things to complain about.

“It was the beginning of the third year of the search for Laman when Shaiel found herself with child. By the laws, she should have returned to the Threefold Land. A Maiden is forbidden to carry the spear while she carries a child. But Janduin could forbid her nothing; had she asked the moon on a necklace, he would have tried to give it to her. So she stayed, and in the last fight, before Tar Valon, she was lost, and the child was lost. Janduin could not forgive himself for not making her obey the law.”

[Xath]

Just because it was super uncommon doesn't mean she wasn't there in the middle of the battlefield. She was close enough to battle that her group of maidens could be cut off and slaughtered. Do you think she would have twiddled her thumbs while that happened? You nitpick about a woman fighting when that was the prophecy she was following. The lack of a veil, and other things, are far bigger things to complain about.

Serious question have you ever seen a women in labor? She gave birth within minutes of the fight around her finishing. You aren't fighting when you are that close to giving birth you are screaming in pain because contractions hurt.

[Corvus]

If anyone bases their view on what labour is like based on tv/movies then they are in for a massive shock if they ever experience it in real life

A full term woman in labour is physically incapable of pulling off acrobatics in the show. They are going to be moving slow and pretty much stop everything when a contraction hits.

No one says they wouldn't try and fight back, but they'd have little chance against a trained soldier, let alone a pack of elite soldiers.

[Gumble]

If anyone bases their view on what labour is like based on tv/movies then they are in for a massive shock if they ever experience it in real life

A full term woman in labour is physically incapable of pulling off acrobatics in the show. They are going to be moving slow and pretty much stop everything when a contraction hits.

No one says they wouldn't try and fight back, but they'd have little chance against a trained soldier, let alone a pack of elite soldiers.

Been through 3 of them and my wife hit me in the arm during each of them telling me I make babies that are too damn big.

A woman in labor is physically incapable of walking, let alone fighting soldiers. Ironically I may even fault RJ a bit on that description, because by the time she was due, there is no way Rand's mom would have been able to move with the Maidens up a mountain slope to get lost from the rest of the Aiel. I don't care how good of shape a woman is in, there are massive physical limitations during that stage of pregnancy.

Give her a gun and she'd shoot alot of guys, a woman's anger is definitely intact at that point.... but a spear? Nah, may as well be a child swinging that during that point.

[rhorle]

Serious question have you ever seen a women in labor? She gave birth within minutes of the fight around her finishing. You aren't fighting when you are that close to giving birth you are screaming in pain because contractions hurt.

Have you? When you are near term you can be sent into labor from actions. Again do you think a maiden of the spear would sit idly by while they were at risk of slaughter just because they were pregnant? That goes against the Aiel culture.

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A full term woman in labour is physically incapable of pulling off acrobatics in the show. They are going to be moving slow and pretty much stop everything when a contraction hits.

Was the show over the top? Sure. But that is nitpicking. Also women are not delicate little flowers when pregnant https://www.espn.com/chicago/story/_...on-gives-birth

[Xath]

Have you? When you are near term you can be sent into labor from actions. Again do you think a maiden of the spear would sit idly by while they were at risk of slaughter just because they were pregnant? That goes against the Aiel culture.

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Was the show over the top? Sure. But that is nitpicking. Also women are not delicate little flowers when pregnant https://www.espn.com/chicago/story/_...on-gives-birth

Running is vastly different from doing acrobatics it has nothing to do with not being a "delicate little flower" running is largely focused on the quads and legs fighting that manner is largely focused on the abdominal muscles they are not equivalent. It wasn't over the top it was flat out nonsensical. Although considering how crappy the show has made Lan maybe a pregnant woman could slaughter a dozen of the companions no sweat lols. Also this isn't modern times if a child was born weeks premature they would die especially if sitting in the snow for a bit crying.

I notice you keep avoiding the trends of actual popular shows here I'll link it for you again. Show is getting massacred by The Witcher and would have gotten similarly bodied by Arcane both shows with similar budgets

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...3w6j16g,Arcane

[Gigantique]

Elayne inherits Andor, and Rand gives her Cairhien.

Rand WANTS to give her Cairhien iirc but Elayne is downright offended by the notion and garners support for it through the noble Houses there herself. I might misremember and mix her indignation at Rand wanting to "give her" Andor tbf but I do feel like she does actively work on getting the Sun Throne too.

[Witchblade77]

the irony of complaining about the show going seriously of books while comparing it to another show in favor of that other show.... when that other show has gone JUST as off books if not more so.

I guess its ok when Witcher does it because... reasons?


incidentally, in the book, Tam finds her already dead with newborn next to her, so in a book that newborn was out in a snow likely a heck of a lot longer then in the show where Tam gets him immediately after birth and can start caring for him, warming him up, etc.

her being able to fight while going into labor is mostly "rule of cool" but this is a fantasy show we are talking about, with magical powers and all that jazz and that specific baby being reincarnation of the dragon, so the trope of "special magical baby makes things different" immediately applies here.

in a story where desert people are pale redheads for the sole reason that Jordan thought it would be cool, where all kinds of magical fits are possible.... pregnant woman fighting through early stages of labor? didn't require nearly as much suspension of disbelief for me as the "lucky break - there just so happens to be a body of water deep enough for Perrin and Egwene to jump into and survive right bellow the one spot on the wall that there were chased to by a deadly black stuff taking over everything"

last episode was... not good. but last I checked, original ending of "Eye of the world" was not exactly beloved or appreciated either, so ....