[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Xath]

I'm still not sure why people are all up in arms about an Aiel fighting like that while pregnant. I would have expected it after they are portrayed in the book.

You mean how in the book outside of Tigraine all Aiel women go back to the wastes when pregnant and certainly aren't fighting? Also in the book how Rand's mom died in childbirth not from battle wounds and was dead for a good amount of time before Tam found her and Rand?

[Shadowferal]

For the sake of amusement; Comments/reviews from the viewership from Amazon-owned IMDB

[rhorle]

What exactly are you basing on to explain this?

The books, have you read them? It isn't head canon to state that the pattern creates certain events to happen in a certain way. Lmao.

"The Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try....And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern."
—Loial to Rand Al'Thor

[Rennadrel]

I honestly have no idea how you think that makes your point better. There were 200 black ajah. Half the forsaken (originally Aes Sedai) were women. The person who freed the dark one was a female Aes Sedai. There's basically no evidence for your claim that the book sets up male Aes Sedai as the bad guys. In the show men clearly are bad, we agree on that. You still haven't provided any evidence from the books to support your claim at all, by the way, you keep talking about the show.

And yes, I read all the books, watched the whole show. Please just stop. You're wrong.

The only men ever considered "evil" in the books were those who could channel because people knew that they'd eventually go insane and cause destruction. That doesn't make them evil by default though, just the concept of them channelling makes everyone else uncomfortable or worried.

[Xath]

The books, have you read them? It isn't head canon to state that the pattern creates certain events to happen in a certain way. Lmao.

Why are you asking people if they have read the books when you clearly haven't and are just pulling stuff from the wiki without regards for context.

[rhorle]

Why are you asking people if they have read the books when you clearly haven't and are just pulling stuff from the wiki without regards for context.

Because claiming that the pattern doesn't "empower" people to do things shows a fundamental lack of understanding the story the books told. We are introduced to Ta'Veeren early on and they are people that the pattern uses to really force events. Claiming that such a concept is head canon is just dumb. If you focused more on the lore instead of attacking and insulting me just because you are salty that I don't hate the show as much as you do then you might notice this.

[Triceron]

The books, have you read them? It isn't head canon to state that the pattern creates certain events to happen in a certain way. Lmao.

It is of you're trying to apply it to events in the show that never happened in the books. Don't be ignorant.

You aren't talking about events that happened in the book, you're trying to headcanon why the show depiction makes sense when they never happened that way in the books.

Your quote even states it clearly, the pattern has room for changes in direction of life. Tigraine was not ta'veren, so the pattern would not bend around her. And if you are implying that the pattern kept her long enough to give birth to a Ta'veren, then again this goes to the theory of baby Rand influencing everything from the womb, which I don't believe is the intent of the book or the Pattern. I believe if Tigraine died at the slopes, the pattern could have just as easily seeded a ta'veren elsewhere. We even know that it can seed multiple Ta'veren at once in the same location, as is in the books. There's nothing to imply the pattern was willing her to survive events that she did not define for herself. The Pattern is not 'fate'.

[rhorle]

It is of you're trying to apply it to events in the show that never happened in the books. Don't be ignorant.

Shaiel/Tigrane was killed in battle on the slopes of Dragonmount because the pattern desired it. That is in the books and I'm not sure why you are claiming that it never happened. Lol.

[Triceron]

Shaiel/Tigrane was killed in battle on the slopes of Dragonmount because the pattern desired it. That is in the books and I'm not sure why you are claiming that it never happened. Lol.

Sure, and that's fine. She's killed in battle on the slopes of Dragonmount. How soon before or after birth was this? Was it a slow or quick death? Was she participating actively in battle while having contractions? Was she fighting alongside people who would be able to protect or support her in combat? All of these are details left out that would imply any number of possible situations that doesn't immediately involve her soloing a bunch of dudes while having contractions.

The pattern having her perform acrobatic feats while in labour and surviving a fatal wound long enough to give birth? That would be a fine stretch of 'killed in battle on the slopes of Dragonmount'. Book is vague enough that any sensible means of giving birth during a moment of respite would have sufficed. There's nothing that would imply that the pattern was urging her to fight on and beat her opponents while having contractions. Is it possible that this could have been the way it happened? Well yeah, the show depicts it this way, so it's possible. And just as reasonably, it's bullshit as far as realism and believability goes.

[Arikara]

The pattern is what caused everything to happen as it did.

This is a gross misunderstanding of the Pattern. The Pattern doesn't "do" anything—but it is what must be. Free will but with fix points, essentially.

View it like this: when Jordan first sat down to write, he already knew what the ending of the sceries would be in quite some detail. He probably also had an idea of the different journeys that major characters would take—particularly the ta'veren—and which things they needed to fulfill in order to end up as the heroes they are by the end. However, Jordan had not necessarily pre-defined everything about them, and as he wrote he would have been free to explore their characters and discover who they were as people, what they would do besides the fated parts, and how they would react to learning that they couldn't escape that tug of fate from the Pattern.

So yes, Tigraine must end up on the slopes of Dragonmount, pregnant with Janduin's son, the Dragon Reborn. That is the will of the pattern. Everything else about her life though is more or less completely up to her. She most definitely does not become "more capable" just because the Pattern requires her to be in a certain spot at a certain date, though.

[Xath]

Shaiel/Tigrane was killed in battle on the slopes of Dragonmount because the pattern desired it. That is in the books and I'm not sure why you are claiming that it never happened. Lol.

That isn't how it works also no she didn't die in battle she died giving birth.

[rhorle]

Sure, and that's fine. She's killed in battle on the slopes of Dragonmount. How soon before or after birth was this? Was it a slow or quick death? Was she participating actively in battle while having contractions? Was she fighting alongside people who would be able to protect or support her in combat? All of these are details left out that would imply any number of possible situations that doesn't immediately involve her soloing a bunch of dudes while having contractions.

We know she was part of a group of maidens that were separated from the main army by an elite group of enemy soldiers and then surrounded and slaughtered. That is clear enough to indicate there was a battle. And we know enough of Aiel culture that she likely picked up a spear to help defend. I never claimed the book has her doing crazy acrobatics. You are arguing something that was never said. I have claimed that it is clear she died on the battlefield and it would be extremely unlikely she didn't have a spear.

The point about the pattern is in regards to your comment about "saying magic helped would make it believable" to paraphrase. The pattern is that "magic" that guides a whole bunch of events. Either on its own or by created Ta'veren to guide the stuff to where it needs to be to do what needs to be done. You can dislike that concept but it is present in the book. It is the entire reason why 3 Ta'veren were seen as such an oddity and amazing thing. They are a living embodiment of the mystical pattern.

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This is a gross misunderstanding of the Pattern. The Pattern doesn't "do" anything—but it is what must be. Free will but with fix points, essentially.

Ta'veren contradict your statements.

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That isn't how it works also no she didn't die in battle she died giving birth.

In the middle of a battle on the battlefield qualifies as in battle.

[Triceron]

The point about the pattern is in regards to your comment about "saying magic helped would make it believable" to paraphrase. The pattern is that "magic" that guides a whole bunch of events.

Right, and I also said if you're implying that the pattern is the reason she can fight like wonder woman while in labour, then the 'magic' is equally bullshit. That's not how the pattern is discerned in the books, even in a setting where magic is real and exists. Tigraine was not a Ta'veren, nor was she a channeller. The pattern doesn't explain her performing superhuman feats while in active labour. That's not what happened in the books, and you're still being absolutely ignorant to continue trying to draw parallels to the book.

Like I said, you're the type to explain how shooting lightning bolts out of her ass would be completely believable because the Pattern exists as an explanation. You're not saying anything different here.

I never claimed the book has her doing crazy acrobatics

But you're defending the show while using examples that don't exist in the book, therefore you're implying that the same thing would happen in the book because the pattern wills it to be. What else are you implying that disagrees with what I've been saying? I already acknowledged that she dies in battle at Dragonmount. We're both clear on what the books says. I'm also clear about the show taking creative liberties, and the difference here is that you're sourcing the book to explain the crazy acrobatics that exist in the show. It's really no different here in context to how the pattern works.

Either the Pattern allows her to do crazy acrobatics, or the pattern has nothing to do with her acrobatics. Pick your poison, it doesn't matter which. It's still poison. The book doesn't have this bullshit in it.

[rhorle]

Like I said, you're the type to explain how shooting lightning bolts out of her ass would be completely believable because the Pattern exists as an explanation. You're not saying anything different here.

And yet I haven't made any argument even remotely close to that. Stop moving the goalposts.

Honestly, if they explained it away with magic, it'd be more believable than what we got.

That is what you said and the Pattern is that magic. Ta'Veren are proof of that. That is what the pattern is. "Magic" that gets people to do X at Y time and often gives them extraordinary abilities to do so? Or is everyone just assume all the characters get proficient in whatever for the story to work by chance?

"No one is born ta'veren. The Pattern turns them to be one when there is a need and they are only ta'veren until they fulfill their purpose." is from the memory of light epilogue. It is the "magic" that you claimed would make it more believable yet when met with facts from the books you still deny it simply because I stated it. It seems you have problem with being wrong at least with the times I prove you wrong.

[Triceron]

In the middle of a battle on the battlefield qualifies as in battle.

It means she was present at the battlefield, and died during the battle. She could absolutely be fighting and defending herself, but it does not need to be alone, or actively participating in fighting all the time. She could have been protected, she could have had moments of rest, she could have been actively on the defense and limiting her movements in order to reserve strength for the incoming labour. And ultimately, she would die giving birth.

Which would be a vast contrast to the show, which depicts her dominating her opponents while fighting alone, suffering a fatal wound in battle, and an implied death from those wounds.

[rhorle]

But you're defending the show while using examples that don't exist in the book, therefore you're implying that the same thing would happen in the book because the pattern wills it to be.

Wrong. I have said the show was over the top in that scene. I have said a pregnant woman fighting is supported by the books and that the "pattern" is your "magic" that you stated would make the scene more believable. This seems to be the problem. You are creating points that I've never made just so you can argue them for whatever reason.

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She could absolutely be fighting and defending herself...

So I'm not wrong yet you've spent several responses telling me how I am wrong and the books don't support what you just stated is possible? Lmao.

[Triceron]

And yet I haven't made any argument even remotely close to that. Stop moving the goalposts.

Sure you have.

When I bring it up, you keep replying that the Pattern wills it this way. You directly quote me and respond with that reply.

That is what you said and the Pattern is that magic. Ta'Veren are proof of that. That is what the pattern is.

If you're gonna quote, then take the full quote. Don't just take it out of context.

And with the type of jumps she was doing while fighting while also in labour? Either she's superhuman, or she was on some insanely strong drugs. Honestly, if they explained it away with magic, it'd be more believable than what we got.



Tigraine was neither Ta'veren nor a channeller who could access the 'Magic' in the universe. Your explanation doesn't apply, you're just correlating two different things here.

The Pattern does not account for any of the superhuman feats that Tigraine was capable of in the show, which is what I was directly commenting about being better explained as 'magic' to be more believable. The Pattern was not responsible for her unbelievable acrobatics while in active labour, so your explanation has nothing to do with my reference to 'magic'. It could be the force that draws her to that location, to die giving birth to a potential Ta'veren. But not as a means to explain the bullshit in the show which you already regarded as an overdramatization.

Do you really not understand that I was talking specifically about Tigraine's acrobatics while in labour as being the thing that would be more believable if explained as being magic? Way to take a quote out of context and run full steam ahead with your irrelevant explanations lol.

[rhorle]

There's a running theory that Gitara may have been Ta'veren, which inevitably guides Tigraine to the slopes of Dragonmount. However that would not account for the superhuman feats that she was capable of, which is what I was directly commenting about being better explained as 'magic' to be more believable. The Pattern was not responsible for her unbelievable acrobatics while in active labour, so your explanation has nothing to do with my reference to 'magic'.

So you go with a "theory" that someone could be a Ta'veren while at the same time stating that someone else could not be one? Also ignoring how her fighting and being kept alive until the right might could be that same Ta'veren pull of Gitara? Or even of Rand in utero. You have a habit of not being able to accept when you are wrong even when what you state agrees with what I've posted.

It is also hilarious how much denial you are in that you'll accept a theory that could lead a woman hundreds of miles over years to a specific place. But take issue with her being able to fight and do stuff that keeps her alive until that specific place.

[Triceron]

So I'm not wrong yet you've spent several responses telling me how I am wrong and the books don't support what you just stated is possible? Lmao.

Er, I spent the past several responses telling you that it was your interpretation and you're free to believe whatever bullshit examples you wish. I never said you were wrong, and I spent time clearly explaining this.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

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It is also hilarious how much denial you are in that you'll accept a theory that could lead a woman hundreds of miles over years to a specific place. But take issue with her being able to fight and do stuff that keeps her alive until that specific place.

Because guided fate and superhuman abilities are two different concepts. They're not mutually exclusive.

To be honest, I don't know why you're so proud of your ignorance here.

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Wrong. I have said the show was over the top in that scene.

And you're also still trying to explain why the over the top scene is believable, lol.

Let's see, first you pull up a bunch of google searches on pregnant women running marathons and doing acrobatics. Then you look into the books to find whatever you can on the Pattern willing people into surviving beyond their mortal capabilities. Looks to me you're trying to convince people that these are believable and reasonable things. So yeah, even if you said the show was over the top, you're still doing the exact opposite and telling everyone how not-over-the-top it is. Which is it here?

You even made up headcanon explanations of how the Pattern wills her to survive long enough to give birth. That's not even from the books, that's your own interpretation. The book doesn't support your interpretation of events, the book is vague and ambiguous over the details of her manner of action and death at Dragonmount, or how the pattern was directly involved in her survival.

You aren't wrong for having an interpretation, but no one else has to consider your interpretation to be valid or canonical. Again, the books don't support any of your explanations, because they don't account for the creative liberties taken in the show which I've been directly criticizing.

If you're not talking about the show, then we're not talking about the same thing. I don't acknowledge the show as abiding to any of the rules laid out in the books, so the Pattern in the show is not the same as the Pattern in the books. That you're trying to headcanon a reasonable explanation between the two is literally you just making shit up.

I mean, what you say and how you're reacting are in pretty fair contrast. It's like you don't even know if which lie to maintain, so you keep flip flopping between acknowledging that the show is over the top, and having to defend it for not being over the top.

[rhorle]

Er, I spent the past several responses telling you that it was your interpretation and you're free to believe whatever bullshit examples you wish. I never said you were wrong, and I spent time clearly explaining this.

Saying I am ignorant, using head cannon, arguing something that isn't in the books, and etc is not saying I'm wrong? Even know you are showing how you can't admit when you are wrong. You are even still calling me ignorant when you'd admitted what I said is as possiblity given what is stated in the books. Lmao.

Because guided fate and superhuman abilities are two different concepts. They're not mutually exclusive.

There's nothing to imply the pattern was willing her to survive events that she did not define for herself. The Pattern is not 'fate'.

This you? Is the pattern fate, or is it not fate?

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And you're also still trying to explain why the over the top scene is believable, lol.

No I am not. I am explaining why her fighting is believable. I've already said the scene is over top and could have been toned down to something that is more believable. Stop moving the goal posts. My comments are about the pattern being that "magic" that makes things possible, including a pregnant woman fighting. You've already acknowledged it is possible even though you are still conflicted on the pattern controlling fate or not.