Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makorus]

Sigh.....

There's no need to break down every single thing here. I'll just point out one example to show how inaccurate this comparison is;


Xplodium Charge
35 yd range
1 sec cast 6 sec cooldown
Throw a bomb at the target area which will explode after 3 sec dealing 11 Fire Damage and stun targets for 2 sec.

Explosive Shot
Talent
20 Focus 40 yd range
Fires an explosive shot at your target. After 3 sec, the shot will explode, dealing (188.5% of Attack power) Fire damage to all enemies within 8 yards. Deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets.

Parabola versus straight line. Targeted ground versus target. Stun vs no stun. Not the same mechanic.

Wow.

Just wow. I am honestly not sure if you are trolling at this point, or if you really lack basic grasp on how a game works.

What, so if I show you an Arcane Blast spell that has a 6 second cooldown with a 2 second cast time, and an Arcane Blast spell that has a 5 second cooldown with a 1.5 sec cast time, are you gonna pretend they are different "mechanics" as well?

Do you know how easy it is to add a stun effect to a spell? Do you want me to change the Explosive Shot spell so it looks and sounds exactly like the Charge? It's not even 5 minutes of effort.

The mechanic of the spell is "Lands on spot and does something after x seconds". That's the mechanic.

[Ersula]

That would only make sense if one character could be multiple classes. Right now system like that would be nonsensical.

Okay but how does that work in-universe? It feels like grinding in a very anti-RPG way. Level 2 unrelated characters in order to play the character you actually want. The game is extremely alt friendly but this is effectively forcing the altaholic playstyle on people who don't like alts.

What if they added Medic, Tinker & Bard as optional additional specs. They're not full classes but they're specs your character can choose one of that is added to your spec selection. That seems to be more in line with what people want.

[Teriz]

Wow.

Just wow. I am honestly not sure if you are trolling at this point, or if you really lack basic grasp on how a game works.

What, so if I show you an Arcane Blast spell that has a 6 second cooldown with a 2 second cast time, and an Arcane Blast spell that has a 5 second cooldown with a 1.5 sec cast time, are you gonna pretend they are different "mechanics" as well?

Except that isn't even close to comparable to the examples you gave me above. Xplodium charge is far different than Explosive Shot beyond merely cast time. To bring up your Arcane Blast analogy, if one Arcane Blast spell was launched in an arc, targeted the ground, did AoE damage and stunned, while the other Arcane Blast spell shot out in a straight line, targeted a mob, and just did AoE damage, no I would not consider both spells to have the same mechanics.

Frankly no one would.

Do you know how easy it is to add a stun effect to a spell? Do you want me to change the Explosive Shot spell so it looks and sounds exactly like the Charge? It's not even 5 minutes of effort.

Why are you ignoring the fact that one ability fires in an arc and doesn't target mobs, while the other does target mobs and fires in a straight line? That alone are very different ability mechanics. The lack of stun on one ability is just a cherry on top.

The mechanic of the spell is "Lands on spot and does something after x seconds". That's the mechanic.

Except that isn't what Explosive Shot does. You need a target (aka a mob) to use Explosive Shot. In the case of Xplodium charge you can target any area. Once again, different mechanics.

[Tziva]

Guys, please stay on topic. This is way off the rails.

[Raetary]

Xplodium Charge, Deth Lazor, Grav-O-Bomb, and Rock-it turret.

Can you list some abilities that have similar mechanics?

Lazor - literally every forward facing Cleave/Aoe ability ever? The only difference between this and Cone of Cold is that its casted.

Xplodiun/grav - both are just targetted AoEs?
If you mean the delay, Shadow break/dh seals/mind bomb, etc have it, that isn't new.


Turret - ever heard of searing totem? Because this is literally just a searing totem.
I could also pull up every other stationary summoning ability as well, like Lightwell/Mindbender or monk statues, etc. however searing totem just hits the nail on the head.

Edit: @Tziva sorry, didn't see your post until after i posted.

[Makorus]

Except that isn't even close to comparable to the examples you gave me above. Xplodium charge is far different than Explosive Shot beyond merely cast time. To bring up your Arcane Blast analogy, if one Arcane Blast spell was launched in an arc, targeted the ground, did AoE damage and stunned, while the other Arcane Blast spell shot out in a straight line, targeted a mob, and just did AoE damage, no I would not consider both spells to have the same mechanics.

Frankly no one would.



Why are you ignoring the fact that one ability fires in an arc and doesn't target mobs, while the other does target mobs and fires in a straight line? That alone are very different ability mechanics. The lack of stun on one ability is just a cherry on top.



Except that isn't what Explosive Shot does. You need a target (aka a mob) to use Explosive Shot. In the case of Xplodium charge you can target any area. Once again, different mechanics.

Yes, damn, you proved me wrong. There is no ability in the game that has the exact range, cast time, animation, damage, spellid, damage, blow-up-duration, and stun duration.

I was gonna link like 10 spells that are similiar to the Charge, such as this , this, this, this, this or this.

But very true, because they do not have the stun component, they are completely different spells and in no way comparable, so Blizzard had to code an entirely new ability for BfA, which is clear proof Tinkers are coming.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see it until after I posted.

[Chickat]

Tinkers would be vehicle combat 100% of the time. Basically, Path of Ascension as a class, and we all know how popular THAT is.

Tinkers would be no different than havoc demon hunters with cool down abilities, or druid shapeshift forms.

I can't believe I just read 4 pisces of tinker arguing.

Anyways I didn't see the mod message until now, so let's not start discussing that again.

[Sondrelk]

Finally finished the Mage Tower challenge again, and I really do feel like it's the biggest leap forward for WoW in terms of replayability.
Obviously you only really do the challenge once per spec, but still it seems to me like a really solid move forwards in terms of recycling old content in creative ways that players actually want to engage in. Not just in the actual mage tower challenge, but how unlike the dungeons it actually incentivises players to go and find the perfect items to scale down, first with items from the current expansion, then to go back to older raids and dungeons.

The worst thing that could happen now is if this really ends up being all there is. BfA Timewalking will only have another M+, and nothing new will be added to older Timewalking events.


So what is everyone else's opinion on this? More like the Mage tower, or was it a wasted effort?
I clearly gave my very biased opinion, but I am curious whether other players agree.

[AngerFork]

So what is everyone else's opinion on this? More like the Mage tower, or was it a wasted effort?
I clearly gave my very biased opinion, but I am curious whether other players agree.

While I personally felt reminded of how much I didn't like the Mage Tower when it was live before, it served more to show me just how lacking most Timewalking is at this point. I agree that it did well in recycling old content that was loved by much of the player base & giving it new life, plus it was hard & gave something to work for during this timewalking period. And...now it's going to be put back in the Blizzney vault for another 6 months because schedule reasons. When it comes back, it'll only be around for a week for people to strategize & work at it again, then it will be back in the vault for another 6 months. It takes this content that they've given new life to & turned it into a bit of an exercise in frustration.

IMO, Blizz should change timewalking to be on it's own calendar at this point. Keep each timewalking event open for 2 weeks at a time, cycling from expansion to expansion. 2 weeks of BC, then 2 weeks of Wrath, etc. They also should look at bringing back some of this old content like they did for Mage Tower to give timewalking more to do than just a handful of dungeons. Argent Tournament content for Wrath, Timeless Isle content for MoP, Island Expeditions for BfA...stuff like that. It's sad IMO that timewalking has turned into another dungeon chore to do for the most part rather than a true celebration of what these expansions were.

[Candlewick]

While I personally felt reminded of how much I didn't like the Mage Tower when it was live before, it served more to show me just how lacking most Timewalking is at this point. I agree that it did well in recycling old content that was loved by much of the player base & giving it new life, plus it was hard & gave something to work for during this timewalking period. And...now it's going to be put back in the Blizzney vault for another 6 months because schedule reasons. When it comes back, it'll only be around for a week for people to strategize & work at it again, then it will be back in the vault for another 6 months. It takes this content that they've given new life to & turned it into a bit of an exercise in frustration.

IMO, Blizz should change timewalking to be on it's own calendar at this point. Keep each timewalking event open for 2 weeks at a time, cycling from expansion to expansion. 2 weeks of BC, then 2 weeks of Wrath, etc. They also should look at bringing back some of this old content like they did for Mage Tower to give timewalking more to do than just a handful of dungeons. Argent Tournament content for Wrath, Timeless Isle content for MoP, Island Expeditions for BfA...stuff like that. It's sad IMO that timewalking has turned into another dungeon chore to do for the most part rather than a true celebration of what these expansions were.

I feel like wow needs to prune its useless events from its actual events. Offering a bonus is fine but I rather have content be enabled then simple bonuses.

[Sondrelk]

While I personally felt reminded of how much I didn't like the Mage Tower when it was live before, it served more to show me just how lacking most Timewalking is at this point. I agree that it did well in recycling old content that was loved by much of the player base & giving it new life, plus it was hard & gave something to work for during this timewalking period. And...now it's going to be put back in the Blizzney vault for another 6 months because schedule reasons. When it comes back, it'll only be around for a week for people to strategize & work at it again, then it will be back in the vault for another 6 months. It takes this content that they've given new life to & turned it into a bit of an exercise in frustration.

IMO, Blizz should change timewalking to be on it's own calendar at this point. Keep each timewalking event open for 2 weeks at a time, cycling from expansion to expansion. 2 weeks of BC, then 2 weeks of Wrath, etc. They also should look at bringing back some of this old content like they did for Mage Tower to give timewalking more to do than just a handful of dungeons. Argent Tournament content for Wrath, Timeless Isle content for MoP, Island Expeditions for BfA...stuff like that. It's sad IMO that timewalking has turned into another dungeon chore to do for the most part rather than a true celebration of what these expansions were.

From how I see it, the individual Timewalking events being so far apart only goes to show how so far only the Legion one is actually worth investing time into.
If every Timewalking event had something similar in scope to the Mage Tower, where each other week yuo had something else to really get that challenge and otherwise feel like progressing for rewards, then there being 4 months between each Legion Timewalking wouldnt be so bad.

There is of course the obvious issue that only Legion had something that fit so perfectly as a culmination of Timewalking content. Scenarios from MoP for instance wouldnt really work as well as the Mage Tower did in regards to giving a solo-challenge for a unique reward, or even set of rewards.One could argue Challenge Mode Dungeons, but they are not really that different from M+ at this point.

We can only hope that Timewalking gets more stuff eventually. As it stands it's kinda anemic in actual content. It gives some life to old dungeons, but not really a good reason to actually do them, conquer a meaty challenge and gain a unique reward like what Legion TW does.


And yes, it's a shame that Timewalking really only focuses on a handful of dungeons and maybe a raid, instead of really giving a reason to go back to old content in a bigger capacity.
It seems to me like it shouldnt be that difficult to give unique rewards for going back to a scaled version of old content. Cata Dailies and zones are pretty much pointless as anything bu nostalgic levelling zones, and that is such a shame when Timewalking could give back some life to old content there as well. Maybe a recolored version of Firelands gear for completing scaled Molten Front dailies, or an unused mount variant for killing rares in Tanaan jungle.

[Candlewick]

From how I see it, the individual Timewalking events being so far apart only goes to show how so far only the Legion one is actually worth investing time into.
If every Timewalking event had something similar in scope to the Mage Tower, where each other week yuo had something else to really get that challenge and otherwise feel like progressing for rewards, then there being 4 months between each Legion Timewalking wouldnt be so bad.

There is of course the obvious issue that only Legion had something that fit so perfectly as a culmination of Timewalking content. Scenarios from MoP for instance wouldnt really work as well as the Mage Tower did in regards to giving a solo-challenge for a unique reward, or even set of rewards.One could argue Challenge Mode Dungeons, but they are not really that different from M+ at this point.

We can only hope that Timewalking gets more stuff eventually. As it stands it's kinda anemic in actual content. It gives some life to old dungeons, but not really a good reason to actually do them, conquer a meaty challenge and gain a unique reward like what Legion TW does.


And yes, it's a shame that Timewalking really only focuses on a handful of dungeons and maybe a raid, instead of really giving a reason to go back to old content in a bigger capacity.
It seems to me like it shouldnt be that difficult to give unique rewards for going back to a scaled version of old content. Cata Dailies and zones are pretty much pointless as anything bu nostalgic levelling zones, and that is such a shame when Timewalking could give back some life to old content there as well. Maybe a recolored version of Firelands gear for completing scaled Molten Front dailies, or an unused mount variant for killing rares in Tanaan jungle.

I rather they not reuse daily content myself... challenge modes I could see working and perhaps something like classic naxxramas or the timed ZA raid. ( does classic ZA exist or was it changed like ZG in the revamp?)

Bringing back changed dungeons would be interesting as well.

[Sondrelk]

I rather they not reuse daily content myself... challenge modes I could see working and perhaps something like classic naxxramas or the timed ZA raid. ( does classic ZA exist or was it changed like ZG in the revamp?)

Bringing back changed dungeons would be interesting as well.

Not necessarily daily content like we remember it, but at some scaled version of old zones so we have a reason to actually see the zones, and not just teleport into the dungeons without a regard for the greater part of the expansion.
The dungeons being given new life is great, but it's such a small part, and I really think Timewalking is doing the expansions a disservice by not giving the players a glimpse of even more of the expansion.

And of course, it would just be nice to have outdoor zones to use all the fun items you may or may not have gained when the expansion was actually relevant, like the Suramar mount that gave you permanent disguise, or Aviana's feather in WoD zones.
Things like that could still be used, but without any actual relevant content in the zones it's hollow when it could have given a real sense that you have something cool to show off from actually playing that expansion.

[Khaza-R]

So what is everyone else's opinion on this? More like the Mage tower, or was it a wasted effort?
I clearly gave my very biased opinion, but I am curious whether other players agree.

I've suggested they they add a solo challenge mode to old raids as an additional form of content. Same bosses but they all have new abilities balanced for a solo encounter. Completing the dungeon gives you an updated HD version of an old set. Obviously some new sets also for DK, Monk, DH where necessary. Maybe completing it on every class gives you a meta rewards like an HD version of an old weapon or mount.

Personally, I think that could add a whole other element of side content the game.

[Lahis]

Okay but how does that work in-universe? It feels like grinding in a very anti-RPG way. Level 2 unrelated characters in order to play the character you actually want. The game is extremely alt friendly but this is effectively forcing the altaholic playstyle on people who don't like alts.

That's why I said it makes no sense when one character can be only one class.

If your character could be both Mage and Warrior (and swap classes in rest area like specs currently or whatever) then it would make sense to unlock Battlemage once your Mage and Warrior are at level cap.

But leveling two separate characters to max level just to create third character in new class makes no sense.

[AngerFork]

From how I see it, the individual Timewalking events being so far apart only goes to show how so far only the Legion one is actually worth investing time into.
If every Timewalking event had something similar in scope to the Mage Tower, where each other week yuo had something else to really get that challenge and otherwise feel like progressing for rewards, then there being 4 months between each Legion Timewalking wouldnt be so bad.

Perhaps, though I feel like part of what is good about the Mage Tower is building up strategies & learning the fights to overcome the challenge with your current toolkit. When it is 4-6 months apart, if you wind up unable to complete it during the week for whatever reason, you'll likely forget your strat over the next 4-6 months & need to start again. It would be like going back to Nathria at the beginning gear level & trying to remember the fights, but only getting a week before it was gone again.

There is of course the obvious issue that only Legion had something that fit so perfectly as a culmination of Timewalking content. Scenarios from MoP for instance wouldnt really work as well as the Mage Tower did in regards to giving a solo-challenge for a unique reward, or even set of rewards.One could argue Challenge Mode Dungeons, but they are not really that different from M+ at this point.

We can only hope that Timewalking gets more stuff eventually. As it stands it's kinda anemic in actual content. It gives some life to old dungeons, but not really a good reason to actually do them, conquer a meaty challenge and gain a unique reward like what Legion TW does.

I don't know that I agree that M+ & Challenge modes aren't all that different. M+ throws new affixes at you & gives you weird affixes that are sometimes killer while others wind up helping more than hurting, plus they can be easily outgeared at lower levels. Challenge modes on the other hand brought your gear down to a proper spot, gave you the dungeon without any frills, & dared you to beat it within a set time. I'd love to see something like that come back & see how they feel compared to what we have now with M+.

Largely though, that's kind of what I want to see with timewalking events. Not necessarily super difficult & challenging (though I'm OK if it is), but rather returning to the feel of how each expansion had endgame content aside from dailies. Most expansions have something that could be brought back for endgame-style content to at least give more of a flavor to endgame WoW than we have currently. Garrison invasions, Warfronts, Island Expeditions, Tillers farm, Challenge Mode Dungeons, even that Thrall/Aggra quest chain could be made into something.

[Hitei]

Finally finished the Mage Tower challenge again, and I really do feel like it's the biggest leap forward for WoW in terms of replayability.
Obviously you only really do the challenge once per spec, but still it seems to me like a really solid move forwards in terms of recycling old content in creative ways that players actually want to engage in. Not just in the actual mage tower challenge, but how unlike the dungeons it actually incentivises players to go and find the perfect items to scale down, first with items from the current expansion, then to go back to older raids and dungeons.

The worst thing that could happen now is if this really ends up being all there is. BfA Timewalking will only have another M+, and nothing new will be added to older Timewalking events.


So what is everyone else's opinion on this? More like the Mage tower, or was it a wasted effort?
I clearly gave my very biased opinion, but I am curious whether other players agree.

Wasted effort for me.

I enjoyed the original MT somewhat, it was obnoxious how poorly it was balanced spec to spec, but still decently fun. But the timewalking iteration is just all around frustrating. It's frustrating having both current borrowed power and the borrowed power used during Legion just artificially disabled, it's frustrating not having the wiggle room of gear progression, it's frustrating that for many specs it involves farming specific optimized BiS from random expansions.

The original version at least sort of felt like it was promoting using whatever tools you could think of and mastering mechanical difficulty, this one feels more like it demands using the very specific set of tools that aren't banned and is largely just number difficulty.

The rewards just aren't worth the hassle so for me it's just a pass.

[Ersula]

The rewards just aren't worth the hassle so for me it's just a pass.

Agreed. I was able to do the original mage tower without the best gear because of skill. This new version doesn't feel like its based on skill because you absolutely need the best gear and buffs. If its skill based gear shouldn't matter.

[Sondrelk]

Wasted effort for me.

I enjoyed the original MT somewhat, it was obnoxious how poorly it was balanced spec to spec, but still decently fun. But the timewalking iteration is just all around frustrating. It's frustrating having both current borrowed power and the borrowed power used during Legion just artificially disabled, it's frustrating not having the wiggle room of gear progression, it's frustrating that for many specs it involves farming specific optimized BiS from random expansions.

The original version at least sort of felt like it was promoting using whatever tools you could think of and mastering mechanical difficulty, this one feels more like it demands using the very specific set of tools that aren't banned and is largely just number difficulty.

The rewards just aren't worth the hassle so for me it's just a pass.

I feel it clicked for me when I started considering the evergreen aspect of farming old BiS gear as an intended part of the experience honestly.
I definitely feel a bit cheated that I cannot use the same skillset as I am actually using regularly to defeat the boss, and instead have to use a severely gimped version, but I wonder if that aspect is precisely what Blizzard wants from Timewalking content. A version of the game that feels less rooted in the actual expansion, and instead focuses squarely on the old mechanics. (Or at least the tiniest bit, given we are still using the current expansion base class.)

Let us not forget that Covenant abilities were originally supposed to work solely in the Shadowlands and Shadowlands instances.
There was some predictable outrage on that before it got changed to proper borrowed power, but I did wonder ever since whether it would have made the experience better knowing that it could mean that borrowed power in the future could stay linked to the expansion instead of needing to be removed like Azerite and Artifact abilities.

A potential future SL Timewalking could in theory strip you of all borrowed power, and instead leave you just with the SL themed ones, giving a more "complete" SL experience.
I have to wonder whether this Timewalking would have worked better if it did something like that. Classes have definitely changed massively, and some classes have of course already gained the Artifact abilities baseline, bur if we assume they had not and we got to use them in challenging content again, I do have to wonder whether it would have worked.


But of course, the MM challenge did feel fittingly challenging given what I remember from Legion, so maybe I would have felt differently if I had to deal with some of the more bullshit ones like Havoc or Affliction.

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed. I was able to do the original mage tower without the best gear because of skill. This new version doesn't feel like its based on skill because you absolutely need the best gear and buffs. If its skill based gear shouldn't matter.

It might be an unpopular opinion, and definitely one I might regret going into the future. But I did actually genuinely enjoy the aspect of finding the best possible gear to use, as well as how it gave a reason to have old recipes like the Dragon Soul gems, or obscure leather working recipes.

Though then again, I did just read a guide on BiS stuff, which is a gameplay style that I generally think is detrimental to WoW, so who knows.


I guess I mostly just want more rewards in line with what Legion Timewalking gave. Not just the Mage Tower set, but also the Nightborne NPC weapons from the vendor.
Whether we get more challenging content, I do really want more unique stuff to collect.

Though of course, hopefully the next set I can gather isn't based on the top 3 worst hunter sets in the game. I want gear that looks as great as the Warrior one, not like my hunter decided to put roadkill on his head.

[Chickat]

Finally finished the Mage Tower challenge again, and I really do feel like it's the biggest leap forward for WoW in terms of replayability.
Obviously you only really do the challenge once per spec, but still it seems to me like a really solid move forwards in terms of recycling old content in creative ways that players actually want to engage in. Not just in the actual mage tower challenge, but how unlike the dungeons it actually incentivises players to go and find the perfect items to scale down, first with items from the current expansion, then to go back to older raids and dungeons.

The worst thing that could happen now is if this really ends up being all there is. BfA Timewalking will only have another M+, and nothing new will be added to older Timewalking events.


So what is everyone else's opinion on this? More like the Mage tower, or was it a wasted effort?
I clearly gave my very biased opinion, but I am curious whether other players agree.

They should update the rewards every season.

Next xpac there are weapons for every spec themed after the Tier set recolors. Maybe they are a new skin of artifacts matching the color of the shadowlands season set.

- - - Updated - - -

Imo there should allways be a timewalking, a pvp, and a less imprtant event up weekly.

Each expansion has their own timewalking, but instead of every couple weeks, its weekly.

Week one- TBC timewalking, bg event, pet battles
Week two- Wrath timewalking, arena event, world quest event.
week three- Cata timewalking, skirmish event, Current xpac dungeon event.
week four- MoP timewalking, Pvp brawl event, Trial of Style event.
Week five, WoD timewalking, bg event, pet battles.
week six- Legion timewalking, Arena event, World quest event.
Week seven- BFA timewalking, skirmish event, current xpac dungeon event.
Week eight- Shadowlands timewaling, pvp brawl, trial of Style event.


I also have a few ideas for new events.

1. Current xpac previous tier raid event. A previous tier raid rewards items at current normal item level, plus valor, plus a heroic raid level box.
2. Archeology event. New vender to spend fragments on. Has old mount, pet, armor, weapon skins from all of the unused items in the files. Cool daily quests to get more fragments, and new rewards.
3. Past xpac unique content event. Troves of thunder king, withered training, Islands or warfronts, Torghast. Do old content for modern cosmetic rewards.
4. Old expansion launch events/world bosses. This one could be part of timewalking or not. Every time this event is up a previous expansions event will pop up again for a week. The Legion event comes to mind. Demon invasions for cosmetics, catch up gear, alt leveling etc.