Remarks from former WoW designer gives insight on WoW's classes

[Kumorii]

The guy literally said he thought of classes in probably a too conservative or limited mindset. Demon hunters already wow that race specific classes isn't an issue.

Then again, since the first part was used to dismiss classes but for some reason, not surprised, it didn't involve the race specific class tinker.

No ranged demon Hunter won't satisfy Dark Ranger wishes. A retarded statement to say the least. How would paying a completely other class satisfy the needs for a specific class? Engineering already satisfy tinkers after all. Same thing.

Why do these threads get created where people's wishes are constantly dismissed? Talk about tinker all you want, but why the hell tell others constantly what they should be happy with? Why this arrogance? There's nothing to gain from it except ending up in fights with everyone. Teriz and tinkers is such a meme in these forums.

Stop telling others what they should be happy with. Especially when it's not even close to what they asked for.

[Rinaul]

That would be the logical conclusion, since it is the final RTS hero alongside the Goblin Alchemist whose abilities have never appeared in the class lineup.

That doesn't mean it would appear in the next expansion though. Blizzard could hold off new class inclusion for multiple expansions like they did with Shadowlands. Interestingly, the lack of a new class in Shadowlands sort of reinforces the idea that Blizzard's class goals was to bring the RTS heroes into WoW as classes.

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I'm rather shocked that the DH is still only running 2 specs when Hearthstone has shown a rather realistic concept for a DH third spec that players would be very excited for;



https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Ace_Hunter_Kreen

Demon Hunter-hunter. Lol

[username993720]

Why do these threads get created where people's wishes are constantly dismissed? Talk about tinker all you want, but why the hell tell others constantly what they should be happy with? Why this arrogance? There's nothing to gain from it except ending up in fights with everyone. Teriz and tinkers is such a meme in these forums.

He enjoys it too much.
For some reason, the mods don't seem to realize that.

[RobertMugabe]

Oh my god, here we go again... -_-

Is there anything else that interest you about the game beside the Tinker? Jesus... there are other aspects to the game beside classes.



And this is not simply a Hunter with green arrows?
Your duplicity never ceases to amaze me.



No, it wouldn't.



Let me tell you something about your "racially-specific" classes. Demon Hunters were added with only 2 races - the ultimate definition of a too race-specific class. Did it stop them? No. Secondly, the Monk (or Brewmaster, as it was known) was only associated with the Pandaren. Now, don't bullshit me that there were other monk and brewmaster races out there. I know that. But, the monk class itself is extremely pandaren-specifically themed. And yet, they added it. Now, as for the classes in question:

Dark Ranger - Calia/Derek undead, Forsaken, Blood elf, Night elf, Void elf and possibly Draenei and Pandaren.

Priestess of the Moon (Night Warrior) - Night elf, Nightborne, Venthyr, Worgen, Mag'har (Shadowmoon), Zandalari (Lun'alai).

Blademaster - Orc, Mag'har, Lightforged Draenei, Pandaren, Ankoan, Night elf.

Shadow Hunter - Troll, Zandalari, Orc, Mag'har (Bleeding Hollow), Saberon, Drust, Kul Tiran.

Wardens - basically, what Night Warriors and Dark Rangers will be able to (as i believe it will be combined).

Of course, this is my own speculation and there could be much more. The unplayable races are, i believe, going to be playable at some point.



You bet your ass.



It isn't. One ability (Bladestorm) is like the Warlock's Metamorphosis case.



Couldn't have worded it better.

Dark Rangers will never become a playable class

[Uncia Amethice]

I feel like they started abandoning that mindset back in Cata, at the latest...

One of my biggest frustrations with the overhaul in Cata is what they did with combat rogue thematically. Combat rogues were fairly versatile in that they were more of a toe-to-toe flavour of rogue that was still a rogue, and as such could comfortably slot into a lot of different concepts of "I'm sneaky but I don't use daggers" - troll headhunter types, scouts, bandits and the like. And that was all thrown out the window with Outlaw which is literally just "you're a pirate lol", without even the option of glyphing out the pistol for a thrown weapon like knives or axes, which would at least make it a little more lore-versatile.

[Kumorii]

He enjoys it too much.
For some reason, the mods don't seem to realize that.

He do get banned often though. Probably will again if this thread continues like his other threads usually do.

[Orby]

I do remember a developer remarking that the Runemaster was similar to the class from the TTRPG, which was monk-like;

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Runemaster

I think alot of the current classes in game cover a broad version of the actual classes in lore, some even cover multiple casses.

Blood Mage is just Fire Mage and part old school affliction Warlock
Tidesage is just Shaman an frost mage rolled into one.]
Shadow Hunter is just priest mixed with Shaman too.

Even hunters cover a broad range of classes including beast masters, marksman, ranger, sharpshooters, Dark Ranger.

and don't even get me started on all the types of Druid schools :P

[Al Gorefiend]

Tinker class specific to goblin/gnome is the biggest theme left uncovered from WC3 heroes. No class fights with technology yet, only magic and medieval weaponry.

It existed, hate Tinker all you want and you can associate it with Teriz all you want, but it's been a desired class on these forums since before Monk was created. It was always in the top 10 for future classes across the entire community since before death knight was created.

Yes, it was never as popular as Death Knight or Demon Hunter, but it remains unadded and it's incarnation is inevitable. @Teriz just happened to make a concept for the class that looked fun, it was never his idea.

[Teriz]

Yeah, there were weak spots in the idea and unfortunately little has been done to address those. If I recall, totems (the ability, not the weapon, obviously) were added to Shaman so they could also encompass the troll witch doctors, but I feel like druids ended up feeling more like a troll class (though of course that's partially to due with lore that was invented in the meantime).

Yeah, that was very ironic. One thing that really surprised me in the shift from WC3 to WoW was the transformation of Wards into Totems. In WC3, totems were weapons wielded primarily by the Tauren, and Wards were spells you placed on the ground that did an effect. I would have definitely preferred Serpent Ward to Searing Totem, and I actually enjoyed the Serpent Ward glyph we got in MoP.

Also, Warriors in general often just feel a little too archetypal, at least to me. Arms and Fury in particular are just small mechanical variants on the idea of "me smash things". It's hard to get any cultural feel from it no matter who you're playing. In the past I've suggested that Arms doubledown on a more Blademaster feel of more agililty and pseudo-stealth Wind Walk and perhaps a more "anime" feel while Fury embrace the enrage mechanic and pure brute force, but we don't have that.

I would definitely like to see Arms become Blademaster. However, maybe Blizzard views that as too race specific to even be a spec?

There's also an issue with things like Priestesses of the Moon. It was a culture-defining idea that they were mounted archers in Warcraft III, but in World of Warcraft, a literal night elf priest is a cloth caster, and the iconic Priestess abilities somehow found their way into Druid, so it's basically impossible to play a proper Priestess of the Moon even though the pieces are there.

In early WoW the priest class got a variety of race specific spells. Trolls got Hex for example and NE Priests got Starshards which was a minimized version of Starfall. This was removed due to balance concerns, but it sort of showed that PotM was really a combination of Hunters and Priests. It didn't really become part of the Druid class until later (WotLK).

[username993720]

Dark Rangers will never become a playable class

On its own, it won't. But, as a part of a class.

One of my biggest frustrations with the overhaul in Cata is what they did with combat rogue thematically. Combat rogues were fairly versatile in that they were more of a toe-to-toe flavour of rogue that was still a rogue, and as such could comfortably slot into a lot of different concepts of "I'm sneaky but I don't use daggers" - troll headhunter types, scouts, bandits and the like. And that was all thrown out the window with Outlaw which is literally just "you're a pirate lol", without even the option of glyphing out the pistol for a thrown weapon like knives or axes, which would at least make it a little more lore-versatile.

Survival is what you're looking for.

Tinker class specific to goblin/gnome is the biggest theme left uncovered from WC3 heroes. No class fights with technology yet, only magic and medieval weaponry.

It existed, hate Tinker all you want and you can associate it with Teriz all you want, but it's been a desired class on these forums since before Monk was created. It was always in the top 10 for future classes across the entire community since before death knight was created.

Yes, it was never as popular as Death Knight or Demon Hunter, but it remains unadded and it's incarnation is inevitable. @Teriz just happened to make a concept for the class that looked fun, it was never his idea.

Says the guy with Vol'jin as his profile pic.

I would definitely like to see Arms become Blademaster.

No, it should stay the heavy juggernaut it is, like a Tauren Chieftain.

In early WoW the priest class got a variety of race specific spells. Trolls got Hex for example and NE Priests got Starshards which was a minimized version of Starfall. This was removed due to balance concerns, but it sort of showed that PotM was really a combination of Hunters and Priests. It didn't really become part of the Druid class until later (WotLK).

You can't cover all religions with the Priest class. It just doesn't cover Elune and Loa worshipping.

[Teriz]

Sadly, we're closer in the territory of no new class and that's it. I don't have confidence with Ion at the helm. His interests seem to lie with maintaining the balance that exists and pushing forward with parasitic design features rather than fully explore a new class. By all means, Shadowlands should have introduced a new class. Any new class.

Actually if they're utilizing the development strategy explained in the OP, it would make sense that there would be no new class to add in Shadowlands, because the Necromancer would already be tied to the Death Knight, and the Dark Ranger would already be tied to the Hunter class. Further, if they're concentrating only on bringing the RTS heroes into the game as classes, it would also make sense that they wouldn't bring any outside class concepts into the game.

That said, yes, 3 new classes in almost 20 years shows a developer that is very cautious about adding any new classes into the game.

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You can't cover all religions with the Priest class. It just doesn't cover Elune and Loa worshipping.

Again, it did at one point (each race had a specific spell in the Priest class), but Blizzard removed it due to balance reasons.

Quite a shame really.

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Stop telling others what they should be happy with. Especially when it's not even close to what they asked for.

I was merely pointing out that some players want a dark version of the Hunter class, perhaps even utilized by a corrupted/evil elf. A bow-wielding Demon Hunter spec using demonic/shadow arrows could fulfill that desire for SOME players.

[username993720]

Further, if they're concentrating only on bringing the RTS heroes into the game as classes, it would also make sense that they wouldn't bring any outside class concepts into the game.

That means your dragon concept, too.

Again, it did at one point (each race had a specific spell in the Priest class), but Blizzard removed it due to balance reasons.

Quite a shame really.

That was in the past and it was 1 or 2 racial abilities. Hardly a representation.

I was merely pointing out that some players want a dark version of the Hunter class, perhaps even utilized by a corrupted/evil elf. A bow-wielding Demon Hunter spec using demonic/shadow arrows could fulfill that desire for SOME players.

What's the difference, then?
Just glyph a hunter's abilities to look green, no?

[Teriz]

Let me tell you something about your "racially-specific" classes. Demon Hunters were added with only 2 races - the ultimate definition of a too race-specific class. Did it stop them? No. Secondly, the Monk (or Brewmaster, as it was known) was only associated with the Pandaren. Now, don't bullshit me that there were other monk and brewmaster races out there. I know that. But, the monk class itself is extremely pandaren-specifically themed. And yet, they added it. Now, as for the classes in question:

Dark Ranger - Calia/Derek undead, Forsaken, Blood elf, Night elf, Void elf and possibly Draenei and Pandaren.

Priestess of the Moon (Night Warrior) - Night elf, Nightborne, Venthyr, Worgen, Mag'har (Shadowmoon), Zandalari (Lun'alai).

I think you really need to dip a bit more into the lore of those concepts. Dark Rangers are pretty much Undead elves. Mainly elven rangers killed by Arthas when he invaded Silvermoon in the third war, and had their souls trapped by Frostmourne. Anything outside of that isn't a true Dark Ranger. Hence why the concept was melded into the greater Hunter class.

PotM are NE evles only. Also "Priestess" pretty much denotes female only as well. Hence why the concept was melded into the greater Hunter and Priest classes (later Druid class).

Blademaster - Orc, Mag'har, Lightforged Draenei, Pandaren, Ankoan, Night elf.

Orc only. Melded into the greater Warrior class.

Shadow Hunter - Troll, Zandalari, Orc, Mag'har (Bleeding Hollow), Saberon, Drust, Kul Tiran.

Troll only. Melded into the greater Shaman class.

Wardens - basically, what Night Warriors and Dark Rangers will be able to (as i believe it will be combined).

Of course, this is my own speculation and there could be much more. The unplayable races are, i believe, going to be playable at some point.

Wardens are only Nightelf females. They were melded into the greater Rogue class.

I understand that these concepts may have shifted to more races in recent years, but you have to look at where we were in early WoW when this stuff was being conceptualized. The other issue explained in the OP is that if a concept could be merged with a general class, that is what they did (i.e. Blademasters being melded into Warriors, Blood Mages going to Mage, and Shadow Hunters going to Shaman). That isn't to say that same race-specific concepts didn't become their own classes. Druids and Paladins were pretty much NE only and Human only at the close of WC3, but obviously they offered a class abilities and concepts that simply couldn't be replicated in another class.

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That means your dragon concept, too.

Indeed it does.

What's the difference, then?
Just glyph a hunter's abilities to look green, no?

Demonic/Shadow-based bow and arrow abilities, something that Dark Ranger fans seem to like.

[Kumorii]

I was merely pointing out that some players want a dark version of the Hunter class, perhaps even utilized by a corrupted/evil elf. A bow-wielding Demon Hunter spec using demonic/shadow arrows could fulfill that desire for SOME players.

I think they ones saying they want Dark Rangers, want to play as a Dark Ranger... just my guess though.
We can use the same logic for anything. Engineering fulfills the tinker role for SOME players. Which also has nothing to do with people wanting an actual tinker class.

[Ielenia]

Even one woukd be pushing it... they ran out of ideas for a DH third spec. Unless they are willing to throw away a lot of balance though there are a lot of limits on what you can and cannot do.

I think it was less "running out of ideas" and more like the DH concept being an incredibly narrow concept that did not allow for much wiggle room, if any.

Other concepts like runemaster, necromancer, bard and tinker are much broader and, IMO, allow for more options for class design.

[cocomen2]

Is this is veiled thread "How to kill any new class idea other than tinker?" for 500, yes Alex.

But i wanna bite it anyway, since red shirt guy pointed out that Booty Bay placed on equator of Azeroth, thus below part of planet mostly not explored.

Next part can take place on any new land mass that they would like to introduce, my take on it:

1) Some lost part of elf lands with Naga being main point, and addition of Ranger class that would split Archer theme between magic and physical forms:

a) Hunter mostly physically gifted wild marksman with his animal companion.

b) Ranger like many people already had theory about it being Water/Shadow/Nature archer that would take after Sea Witch/Dark Ranger/Priestess of the Moon concepts.

2) Island with long lost Orc tribe, (basically pandaria 2.0 but with Japan) with addition Truly honorable Blademaster Samuro, and his class.

3) Dragon islands with their idea of Dragonsworn, where Dragons using help from mortals to defend them time of need, and in return Dragons bestow part of their power to mortals, very much work must to be done here since fans would be not okay with only three specs.

[Ielenia]

I'm rather shocked that the DH is still only running 2 specs when Hearthstone has shown a rather realistic concept for a DH third spec that players would be very excited for;

Hearthstone is not exactly something that should be taken seriously in that regard. After all, this is a card, there:



And going back to WoW lore, DHs are purely about wielding warglaives. AFAIK, the only demon hunter in lore to use a different weapon is Allari the Souleater, and she does so not because she "prefers scythes" but because her weapon is a powerful artifact they're using to extract information from the demons.

[Neversage]

This class system is pretty much what GW2 does. It works fine.

[Ielenia]

wrongo. They forgot how demon hunters are supposed to be ranged in their demon forms. their 3rd spec literally could make them into a caster utilizing what's normally considered fel magic and such of demons.

They're... not, really? The WC3 metamorphosis may have had short range auto-attacks, but the abilities of the DH still remained melee-based, not to mention the DH would only be "ranged" while transformed... which lasted only a short period of time.

[username993720]

I think you really need to dip a bit more into the lore of those concepts. Dark Rangers are pretty much Undead elves. Mainly elven rangers killed by Arthas when he invaded Silvermoon in the third war, and had their souls trapped by Frostmourne. Anything outside of that isn't a true Dark Ranger. Hence why the concept was melded into the greater Hunter class.

I think you lack vision. And on purpose.
We know your claim is false already due to Night elven Dark Rangers.

PotM are NE evles only. Also "Priestess" pretty much denotes female only as well. Hence why the concept was melded into the greater Hunter and Priest classes (later Druid class).

Anyone that follows, and potentially follows, Elune can become her Priest. Hence, why creatures from other worlds could turn into Night Warriors. The gender assignment is irrelevant whatsoever in this day and age. If you didn't know already, the gender restrictions were lifted after the Third War. That's why you can play as a male Night elf Priest. But, as usual, you're "blind" on purpose.
Just by the number of classes you named, you showed how misrepresented it is and how much it deserves its own class.

Orc only. Melded into the greater Warrior class.

Wrong again. There are already Lightforged Blademasters, and Ankoan ones. One ability does not account for an entire class (see: Metamorphosis).

Troll only. Melded into the greater Shaman class.

Wrong again. There are already Human and Saberon Shadow Hunters.
Once again, 2 abilities and a toy does not constitute an entire class (see: Death Coil, Immolate).

Wardens are only Nightelf females. They were melded into the greater Rogue class.

Once again. The gender restrictions in Night elf society was lifted after the Third War. If Wardens are Rogues, how can you play a male night elf Rogue?
*sigh* Your repetitive mamtra is getting tiresome... one ability (Fan of Knives) does not make the Rogue into a Warden (see: Mana Burn).

I understand that these concepts may have shifted to more races in recent years, but you have to look at where we were in early WoW when this stuff was being conceptualized.

Apparently, you have a hard time grasping it.

The other issue explained in the OP is that if a concept could be merged with a general class, that is what they did (i.e. Blademasters being melded into Warriors, Blood Mages going to Mage, and Shadow Hunters going to Shaman). That isn't to say that same race-specific concepts didn't become their own classes. Druids and Paladins were pretty much NE only and Human only at the close of WC3, but obviously they offered a class abilities and concepts that simply couldn't be replicated in another class.

Hence, why no one believed Demon Hunter would become a playable class, let alone the April's Fools joke class, the Pandaren Brewmaster. And yet, here we are. How ironic

Indeed it does.

Man, you change opinions more than a presidential candidate.

Demonic/Shadow-based bow and arrow abilities, something that Dark Ranger fans seem to like.

Again i ask: why not just paint the Hunter green like you suggested all those years for the Dark Ranger?

And, by the way, that's not what they want. You just try to ridicule it. Of course, if the other way around was suggested - more mechanically-based shots and abilities for the Hunters to represent the Tinker - you would be fuming.

wrongo. They forgot how demon hunters are supposed to be ranged in their demon forms. their 3rd spec literally could make them into a caster utilizing what's normally considered fel magic and such of demons.

Exactly.
And there's Teriz, suggesting bow and arrow -_-