Should roguelike gameplay become a fourth "solo pillar" of the endgame?

[Hctaz]

While part of me wants to say "That's a YOU problem" to the people who felt this way, I can also get that if you're into a competitive mind frame in a game then even the smallest upgrade might feel mandatory. The problem is if you have no method for the more casual, easier-content, players to advance then the game is over for them pretty quickly.

The thing is, other games have solved this problem in a variety of ways and I don't experience this issue in any other MMO I play. But, for some reason, Blizzard is adamant that this is the way it MUST be, hardcores and casuals at each other's throats, insisting that any catering to the other wrecks their own style of gameplay.

They, for some reason, refuse to make content that doesn't give you some kind of universal progression.
I remember when people asked for like a decade for player owned houses. Just a house. Just give us a house.

"No. We have to make it functional. In fact, we're spending SO much time making it functional that we're removing all of those cool features we promised about customization such as being able to choose what zone the Garrison is in and also the exteriors of the structures being based on your race in order to spend more time making it functional."

Then it flops and they're like "Yeah well obviously you guys didn't want player housing so THAT'S not coming to the game."

[gd8]

Why though? Rogues are a really unpopular class, what makes you think that making everyone have to do ‘Rogue stuff’ would go down well?

Lol.......

[Candlewick]

Torghast-like content would be a nice addition to the options. ideally it should be Rated Battlegrounds, Arenas, Raids, Mythic+ and Torghastish as viable options to earn gear (and whatever other system happens to be in place that expansion for max level advancement) with the option to dedicate to just one or a combination to prepare for higher levels of those forms of content. the more options we have at end-game the better, so long as they do feel like options

Torghast is to simplistic to offer even heroic raid gear though..

If they really wanted to make something like this a pillar of endgame like the big three it would need to be on par with the mage tower in terms of difficulty...

[Kumorii]

No idea if roguelike should be per se. I wouldn't mind it, I enjoyed torghast pre nerf and would enjoy more challenges like this.

I think in general blizzard need to stick to an idea for more than an expansion, let alone one patch. Nothing becomes great at the first iteration. You need to improve on it.

[Candlewick]

No idea if roguelike should be per se. I wouldn't mind it, I enjoyed torghast pre nerf and would enjoy more challenges like this.

I think in general blizzard need to stick to an idea for more than an expansion, let alone one patch. Nothing becomes great at the first iteration. You need to improve on it.

I don't know outside of visions I can't see much becoming better. Warfronts, isles, torghast all kind of seem like lost causes.

[CalamityHeart]

I would like that. And as hit or miss as they've been, I do appreciate the efforts that Blizzard has made to try and carve out that notch in the game for players who tend more toward solo play, such as Visions, Torghast, the Mage Tower, etc.

WoW being an MMORPG should not necessarily preclude anything that isn't group play from getting meaningful attention. WoW for me has always been a pretty even blend of going through the game on my own with frequent trips into group content as necessary. And group content will likely always have the most significance in the endgame, and that's fine. What would also be fine, very welcome, even, is if content where I can go through and progress meaningfully on my own -- you know, the other half of that even blend of a fun experience that WoW has always been for me -- also had lasting endgame significance and meaningful rewards, instead of pure group content rapidly going from 'as necessary' to 'ALWAYS necessary' for making the same kind of endgame progress.

Most of BFA is a blotch, but I do fondly remember Visions being perhaps the closest to this sweetspot of meaningful solo progression that I'm sort of thinking of. Torghast as a concept was welcome and fun, but ultimately, it backpedaled on the good that I thought Visions brought to the game for players like me that enjoy that sort of thing, and it all being rather visually stale doesn't help in the slightest.

[paxen]

Most of BFA is a blotch, but I do fondly remember Visions being perhaps the closest to this sweetspot of meaningful solo progression that I'm sort of thinking of. Torghast as a concept was welcome and fun, but ultimately, it backpedaled on the good that I thought Visions brought to the game for players like me that enjoy that sort of thing, and it all being rather visually stale doesn't help in the slightest.

Really agree here. Visions was the high point of BfA for me as well (didn't help that everybody in my guild decided to quit after a month or so, although they did come back for SL so I have fun with M+ these days). I was really excited for Torghast as an even bigger version of Visions, but it somehow didn't quite work out. I *did* have fun with Torghast, of course, even doing layer 8 TC with sub-200 gear, but yeah...it could have been better.

I think the decision to force everybody to do it for one unique reward (soul ash) and then also not giving out anything else for it was the big mistake. Current iteration where you at least can get XP and renown, so it's an optional path you do if you want while still getting stuff back is an improvement.

[Kumorii]

I don't know outside of visions I can't see much becoming better. Warfronts, isles, torghast all kind of seem like lost causes.

disagree. Torghast has great potential to me, since you know, I enjoyed it.
Problem with the others, and most of blizzards content in WoW, is that everything is done by zerging. Torghast wasn't which is why it was better than most features. If you got OP you could zerg ofc, but that's the nature of roguelikes. In the end, roguelikes are all about creating your own luck based on your skill.

Isles could be more fun if there was more to it than AOE zerg it.
Warfronts would be more fun if it was more than just zerging points and have just a few people grabbing resources. End boss is a zerg etc etc.
You can't really lose... so it all just becomes a slog. Put on Netflix and mindlessly go at it...of course no one will enjoy it.

Some stuff requires bigger changes some require less depending on direction. However, more engagement is required.

I don't think creating a new feature after a new feature until you strike gold is working. Sometimes you just have to dig deeper...
And it's ok to create content not everyone will enjoy. When one feature is at a place where you can maintain it fairly easily you can create a new feature that others might enjoy.

I don't enjoy PvP for example, and that's ok.

[Niwes]

Eh, it would just be a yes/no poll wouldn't it? Not that interesting. Better to have some discussion.

normally this is not mutually exclusive in mmoc poll threads, but i understand where you comin from.

[Miffinat0r]

My favorite logic in this thread is:

Solo progression content will hurt the game.

Meanwhile doubling down on Mythic Raids and M+ really seems to be selling well these days lol.

[Hctaz]

omg, I can so imagine this being the exact conversation they had. Garrisons were so much anti-housing that I can't believe people still trot them out as examples of why player housing is doomed to fail in WoW.

We just got a Switch for Christmas and our first game is Animal Crossing and we're both already in love with it, and the game is just housing, nothing else, so far. Blizzard could have easily had us doing housing in Azeroth and paying them for the privilege but they seem happier to let Nintendo get our money.

It's probably not very far off. I don't know who or what is deciding that everything in the game needs to give your character an increase in power, but it's just wrong.

My mother will tell you to this day that I used to play the absolute shit out of Animal Crossing. I don't know if this is your first time playing the series, but I started on the OG American release for the GameCube while I was still in Elementary School. I learned pretty fast that there's more to video games than growing stronger and having some big boss to beat at the end. Sometimes you just want to wake up at 8 am on a Saturday and start fishing so you can buy new things to decorate your house with.
I used to go section by section clearing out weeds for no reason other than it made my town look nicer. I spent countless hours farming money to pay off house loan only to be slapped with an upgrade to my home and a new loan to work for. I remember looking up what special events there were, and I even stayed up until after Midnight for the special Halloween event. All because I wanted to make my town and my house look as awesome as possible.

[Candlewick]

disagree. Torghast has great potential to me, since you know, I enjoyed it.
Problem with the others, and most of blizzards content in WoW, is that everything is done by zerging. Torghast wasn't which is why it was better than most features. If you got OP you could zerg ofc, but that's the nature of roguelikes. In the end, roguelikes are all about creating your own luck based on your skill.

Isles could be more fun if there was more to it than AOE zerg it.
Warfronts would be more fun if it was more than just zerging points and have just a few people grabbing resources. End boss is a zerg etc etc.
You can't really lose... so it all just becomes a slog. Put on Netflix and mindlessly go at it...of course no one will enjoy it.

Some stuff requires bigger changes some require less depending on direction. However, more engagement is required.

I don't think creating a new feature after a new feature until you strike gold is working. Sometimes you just have to dig deeper...
And it's ok to create content not everyone will enjoy. When one feature is at a place where you can maintain it fairly easily you can create a new feature that others might enjoy.

I don't enjoy PvP for example, and that's ok.

Torghasts major issue was 90% of each floor had no purpose. It was just fighting hp sponges nothing more nothing less. There are world mobs with more mechanics and pose a larger threat then torghast enemies.

If you want single player progression you would need to look at mage tower... possible visions but torghast had such a flawed design the only thing you ever had to care about was if the elites had so much up they would enrage before you could realisticly kill them or that one invisible elite ambushed you.

[Lurker1]

The op idea is terrible imho rogue-lite maybe but not rogue-like permadeath shouldn't exist in a MMOrpg period.

[paxen]

The op idea is terrible imho rogue-lite maybe but not rogue-like permadeath shouldn't exist in a MMOrpg period.

Splitting the difference between roguelike and roguelite isn't that important when talking about bringing stuff to WoW, but you are right that it should be more "roguelite". Or maybe Hadeslike. Haven't played much Hades, but the little I have gives me the impression that it's a good model.

The two most important things for stuff to work in WoW is to a) let it have its own gear progression so that doing other content is neither required nor trivialize it and b) pay better attention to the anima powers or whatever the next iteration is. Honestly, they should have brought out new anima powers with major patches to shake things up.

[Aydinx2]

Torghast has the bones of the system, but it really needs to be expanded on.
More area variety, more powers that change how your abilities work and not just the stats.
More optional rewards that don't have anything to do with the other content (so no Torghast style legendaries).

Torghast is literally a sandbox for Blizzard to just try random shit and see if people like it, but they are already trying too hard to make it balanced (in part because of the legendaries).

[cparle87]

They, for some reason, refuse to make content that doesn't give you some kind of universal progression.
I remember when people asked for like a decade for player owned houses. Just a house. Just give us a house.

"No. We have to make it functional. In fact, we're spending SO much time making it functional that we're removing all of those cool features we promised about customization such as being able to choose what zone the Garrison is in and also the exteriors of the structures being based on your race in order to spend more time making it functional."

Then it flops and they're like "Yeah well obviously you guys didn't want player housing so THAT'S not coming to the game."

Look at the progression thing coming in Zereth Mortis. Lots of people have already dismissed it as "dead in the water" or even "not content" because it won't give player power in high level content like keys and raiding. They would've done the same thing if garrisons were more cosmetic than functional. Hell, there's people who don't even consider things that give mounts to be content.

[Mardux]

They, for some reason, refuse to make content that doesn't give you some kind of universal progression.
I remember when people asked for like a decade for player owned houses. Just a house. Just give us a house.

"No. We have to make it functional. In fact, we're spending SO much time making it functional that we're removing all of those cool features we promised about customization such as being able to choose what zone the Garrison is in and also the exteriors of the structures being based on your race in order to spend more time making it functional."

Then it flops and they're like "Yeah well obviously you guys didn't want player housing so THAT'S not coming to the game."

I'd prefer them spend time on other things rather than waste it on pointless player housing that people would most likely avoid unless that player is one of the people that would sit around in the house doing nothing instead of doing quests, keys, raids, pvp, tmog runs, pet battles, pvp, etc.

[shise]

No. Blizzard has proved that it is willing to destroy any type of content that might possibly cast a shadow over their precious raids. The most you can expect is the Box of Many Things, aka a refurbished Visions of N'zoth tech tree.

Not to mention that Visions/Torghast blow massive dick when it comes to what one commonly understands as "roguelike", anyway.

M+ has pretty much wiped raids already.

Raids should be the core pve, top, mean to achieve prgression.

M+ is a big mistake the way it is now. But is not entirely a bad thing. Just reward wise, it should not give raid quality loot.

I think that we need attunements back and simply redesign them in a way that the player does the most part of it by himself, then also needs others for some parts of it. Then you have a meaning on playing by yourself in order toopen end game doors. Then, of course, alts should have it a bit easier... grinding the same thing over and over kills alts playing, as we have experienced in the past.

Solo arena queue, just for fun... Making clear that 1 on 1 balance is not imortant and players should be well aware of this. Even knowing it, many of us would use this feature for fun.
More brawl conent and better... make it more relevant.

Questing has been going pretty good p until SL where it went 3 steps back... those daily quests and world quests are plain bad, clearly a lazy design to consume people´s time... You have to do that giving the player a sense of fun and progress... not a sense of frustration.

[klaps_05]

For many years people have taken a jab at the MMO part of WOW, not sure why it wasnt embraced already - why not allow a player to get max ilevel without having to do group content? Being max ilevel does NOT enable you to do group content - so if you want to do that, you still need to work on getting into groups/teams. Hell, if every player could get max ilevel on his own without group content, you will naturally have a lot more groups formed to do higher level content (mythic raids and high keys).

[paxen]

M+ has pretty much wiped raids already.

Raids should be the core pve, top, mean to achieve prgression.

I vehemently disagree. M+ is its own thing, and it's a very good thing. As a separate "pillar" it needs to reward gear comparable to raiding, otherwise raiding would be mandatory to do M+. The reward structure as it is now is pretty good - top gear is time-gated by the vault, but valor+rating requirement will let you increase your character power as you move up the M+ ladder.