Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

[rrayy]

You are being disingenuous, because my statement was that the Pathfinder system itself is bullshit because it exists as yet another timegate system. There is simply no need for all of its requirements or its timegating. Blizzard could just give us another tome that we buy at max level to unlock flying for our alts, or it could just unlock account-wide automatically when we ding max level. Pathfinder's only purpose is timegating, it is not there to benefit the player.

YOu miss the point of Patfinder completely and it has nothing to do with timegating. IT is a compromise top give those that don't want flying at all time to enjoy the game on the ground without pressure to fly while also keeping players from immediately skipping over content.. That is a massive benefit to those players. It also keep players from feeling rushed to complete content or risk feeling like they are behind. The only ones calling it timegating are the lazy and entitled.

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Flying lets me play the game, without it I just afk on FPs every 5min to get somewhere else and sometimes I afk and forget to come back because I'm losing interest. Half my time is passive taxi rides before I ride through a ton of mobs with barding to get to my next actual game play moment before flying unlocks.
I spend more time trying to figure out how to skip the boring terrain I've already seen dozens of times than I do almost anything else after hitting max level.
Gliders, toys, shortcuts, barding, etc... are just a slower means to the same end as flying.
Nobody stops to fight 20 mobs along the way to a quest objective, if they did people wouldn't be training them onto other people's AoE for the first 6 months trying to get their quest done 10sec faster than the other guy.

Pathfinder would be fine if they stopped the X.1 garbage and the game is better with flying than without, always has been.
I play more, explore more, level more alts and enjoy and engage with the game far more with a flying mount.
Nobody just points their mount and afks to their goal... that's such a load of crap that people with no real argument try to use against flying.
Skipping trash in the air vs on the ground is literally the same thing for anyone with half a brain, just one goes a bit faster. Neither offers any danger.

And others players think the game is better without flying. You are not he only one playing the game.

[Balmong]

Flying should be unlocked as soon as you've finished the main storyline of the expansion

[Mokrath]

And others players think the game is better without flying. You are not he only one playing the game.

Based on the WoD flight debacle, those players are a small minority or were at the time.
Pathfinder was a compromise between developers hubris and destroying their cash cow.

[WowIsDead64]

Flying - is part of much bigger problem. Game has become more difficult. There are no ways to tune this difficulty any longer. And current difficulty is higher, than my desired comfortable level. Game isn't unplayable, but it's not enjoyable. And I don't want to suffer for weeks and months on every character to make my game enjoyable again.

Back in old times there were ways to outlevel and to get overgear. For example leveling. Whether you wanted to do gray, green, yellow or orange quests - was purely your choice. But players, who wanted to do orange quests, had to skip things. And Blizzard decided, that it was "waste" of content. So they tuned things for that "orange" guys. Problem is - there is no choice to do quests some different way now.

Scaling, borrowed powers, grind, time-gating, RNG-gating, too high density of mobs, too high respawn rates, elites everywhere, some other mechanics, like no school blocking for caster mobs, relying too much on grouping with other players. All this things take all difficulty control away from players. Just because "effective managers" decided, that content was underused in the past. No flying is just part of this problem.

So, overall this problem boils down to one simple question - whether this game should be easy or hard. And no compromises or half-arsed changes would satisfy me. Only revolutionary change. Such as implementing explicit difficulty choice or dedicated casual/alt-friendly content. I want to be 100% sure, that content will suit me. Not like now, when everything may be completely different in next patch or xpack.

[Flatspriest]

I think they should do flying like they did in TBC or WotLK. Each character had to get to max level, then purchase the training in TBC. At first in WotLK, it was that way as well, then at a patch, they added in the book you could buy and send to alts so they didn't have to wait or level to max. Prior to that patch, it felt like an achievement since you had to go ground until max, and then you could purchase the training to fly.

[Xorzor]

Can't say I'm looking forward to 9.2 flying. The way to unlock it seems very needlessly grindy. A total reversal of how 9.1 did it. If there is a way to accelerate that grind, then maybe it'd be bearable.

[WowIsDead64]

I think they should do flying like they did in TBC or WotLK. Each character had to get to max level, then purchase the training in TBC. At first in WotLK, it was that way as well, then at a patch, they added in the book you could buy and send to alts so they didn't have to wait or level to max. Prior to that patch, it felt like an achievement since you had to go ground until max, and then you could purchase the training to fly.

There is simple reason, why it no longer works. Gold can be bought for $$$ now. If they would set price too low - it would be pointless, like it was back in Cata, where leveling was enough to earn around 12k gold, necessary to buy flying. But setting price too high isn't viable solution any longer. This would be way too F2Pish. Players would feel, that they're forced to pay $$$ to have comfortable game.

And game is already way too F2Pish. Sub numbers are much lower, but profit is almost the same. And I really doubt, that players buy services like server transfers so often. So what? Gold selling is major way to get profit? Yeah, boosts are very common now. Is it F2Pish? I think there is difference. Boosts look more like player services. Devs do nothing to force players to buy them. I.e. players are still able to do the same content by themselves. But gold grinding - is another thing. Paying to bypass long boring grind - what is considered to be F2Pish.

[Azerate]

Pathfinder is one of the best open world progressions in WoW. Killing that would kill half of the casual gameplay.

[rrayy]

Based on the WoD flight debacle, those players are a small minority or were at the time.
Pathfinder was a compromise between developers hubris and destroying their cash cow.

No they weren't. There was thread after thread after thread on the official forum begging for flying to be removed leading up to WoD. They were getting bombarded with it. That is what emboldened them to try it in the first place. Pathfinder was a compromise between the pro and no flying groups. The no flyers somewhat accepted it. Pro flyers area still throwing their selfish temper tantrums thinking they are the only ones who should be catered to..

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I think they should do flying like they did in TBC or WotLK. Each character had to get to max level, then purchase the training in TBC. At first in WotLK, it was that way as well, then at a patch, they added in the book you could buy and send to alts so they didn't have to wait or level to max. Prior to that patch, it felt like an achievement since you had to go ground until max, and then you could purchase the training to fly.

That doesn't feel like an achievement at all. That was nothing more than being handed flying because you had a certain number next to your game. Pathfinder is an achievement because you actually had to significantly play the game to get it while not having to rush to get it or feel like you were at a disadvantage.. Paying a vendor gold for something is NEVER an achievement.

[WowIsDead64]

No they weren't. There was thread after thread after thread on the official forum begging for flying to be removed leading up to WoD. They were getting bombarded with it. That is what emboldened them to try it in the first place. Pathfinder was a compromise between the pro and no flying groups. The no flyers somewhat accepted it. Pro flyers area still throwing their selfish temper tantrums thinking they are the only ones who should be catered to.

It's not true. Nobody was asking for it before Blizzard themselves hadn't created this problem. There were "flying killed WPVP" threads popping from time to time, but they didn't have any support from other players. And they couldn't be compared to 50 page pro-flying threads, that appeared, when flying was removed.

[Deadite]

year later? 9.1 came out 6 months after launch.

I was talking about Pathfinder in general. I think 6 months is still too long personally.

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YOu miss the point of Patfinder completely and it has nothing to do with timegating. IT is a compromise top give those that don't want flying at all time to enjoy the game on the ground without pressure to fly while also keeping players from immediately skipping over content.. That is a massive benefit to those players. It also keep players from feeling rushed to complete content or risk feeling like they are behind. The only ones calling it timegating are the lazy and entitled.

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And others players think the game is better without flying. You are not he only one playing the game.

Click a ground mount then?

[Deneios]

All gating is bad but especially banning mobility of players is stupid. If the game feels empty, anti-social, no wpvp, noone around, its not flying to blame. Its decisions like making an entire expansion into islands and not learning from it. Azeroth was continents not islands. Hope they get it soon.

Do you see ants everywhere or do you see them when they are going to a place en masse or when there is something of intrest to them?
Same thing in wow you dont see players in world if there is nothing there to get them there.

[Spazzix]

I genuinely don't understand why people play this game if they don't like standard aspects of MMOs. Traveling around the open world is part of that. Flying is great, exciting, and feels almost like a cheat when you finally get it, but it is by no means an integral part of the actual experience.

If I don't like core aspects of RTS games, why would I continue to play them while complaining about how I don't like controlling multiple units—I think starcraft should just give every race a single mega 200 supply unit so that players such as myself don't have to deal with all the annoying army control. Or complaining about how all the different buildings are confusing; I think that there should be a standard progression so I just hit "build" and it automatically builds the next structure in the progression—that way all players have the exact same build order and it's fair!

That sounds pretty ridiculous right?

How about players that don't like combat? Should everyone instantly get max ilvl gear so they can just one shot stuff in the open world? And when SL dropped, we shouldn't have simply gotten 226 gear right at the start to instantly blast stuff, no no they shouldn't timegate the 9.2 gear. We should have had 278ilvl as soon as we hit 60. The open world mobs obviously still should be tuned around people in starter 180 gear though...obviously.

I think complaining about not getting flying right away is pretty similar.


Timegating story and grinds is no fun, but flying isn't really either of those. It's a feature that unlocks with a --.X patch the same way raids do.

Ultimately,
If running through the open world is boring, the solution should be to make it more interesting and/or rewarding.
And if you just don't like moving around in the open world between objectives, try an ARPG instead?

[Sondrelk]

Flying doesn't offer any gameplay beyond the tangential link that it lets you get to raids and such slightly faster by skipping other parts of the game.
If pro flyers really hate that open world content so much then the solution is, and always should be to ask Blizzard to let them avoid open world content, not make open world content pointless so they can get the benefits regardless.

Imagine if it worked like this for other aspects of the game. Mythic raiding is not fun to me, but I still want the transmogs, so just let me instakill bosses for the loot and the players who care about raiding can just choose to not use it.
All that faffing around with secret mounts is so boring, but it would be a shame if I didn't get the mount, so just give it to me in the mail once and the secret finding community can still run around and do obscure stuff if they really want to.

The worst part is that I genuinely don't see what players even need from the open world at this point to warrant requiring flying. It's certainly not playing the game for fun and exploring it the way it was intended, so to me it feels like arguing that Call of Duty should have aimbots to all players because I didn't like having to aim that one time I bothered to play an FPS.

[Deadite]

The worst part is that I genuinely don't see what players even need from the open world at this point to warrant requiring flying. It's certainly not playing the game for fun and exploring it the way it was intended, so to me it feels like arguing that Call of Duty should have aimbots to all players because I didn't like having to aim that one time I bothered to play an FPS.

They are called alts. By the time you get flying then your main is pretty much not going to be doing any open world content. Mr Alt however will be. If you want to flying about the same zone for the 5th time and walk to the same world quest for the 50th time then fill your boots. Click a ground mount or RP walk all the way there. Me i want to fly there. See how that works? It is literally a win/win scenario.

[Sondrelk]

They are called alts. By the time you get flying then your main is pretty much not going to be doing any open world content. Mr Alt however will be. If you want to flying about the same zone for the 5th time and walk to the same world quest for the 50th time then fill your boots. Click a ground mount or RP walk all the way there. Me i want to fly there. See how that works? It is literally a win/win scenario.

Yes, I see.
Let's apply that logic to all aspects of the game. Sliders for free rating for those pesky alts, or instant level 60 for alts. What about free gear as well while we are at it? Players who consider this a breakdown in proper game design can just not use it.

Why not in real life too? Remove all restrictions on PEDs in athletics, those who consider this a debasement of the sport can just not use them, easy.


Flying removes the meat and bones of open world content, asking for this to be the norm just tells me that the person doesn't actually care about That part of the game at all.

Why can't we have other means of making levelling easier if that is the issue? We already have heirlooms and catch-up gear, why do we also need a button that doesn't just make open world content easier, but flat out removes all but the data entry aspect of quests?

[Deadite]

Flying removes the meat and bones of open world content, asking for this to be the norm just tells me that the person doesn't actually care about That part of the game at all.

Why can't we have other means of making levelling easier if that is the issue? We already have heirlooms and catch-up gear, why do we also need a button that doesn't just make open world content easier, but flat out removes all but the data entry aspect of quests?

Your examples are ridiculous. Flying gives you nothing. All it does is saves you time. So flying removes the meat and bones of open world content you say? Not if you don't fly. So your complaint evaporates. The only way flying makes questing easier if in the getting there. You still have to click on the 10 doodads and kill the 50 mobs. If you want to wade through irrelevant mobs and take the scenic route everywhere then like i said before. Fill your boots. You don't have to fly if you don't want to. You play the game in what ever way you want to.

It almost sounds like you are so selfish that instead of not flying yourself then no one should be able to fly? Surely not!

[Candlewick]

I genuinely don't understand why people play this game if they don't like standard aspects of MMOs. Traveling around the open world is part of that. Flying is great, exciting, and feels almost like a cheat when you finally get it, but it is by no means an integral part of the actual experience.

If I don't like core aspects of RTS games, why would I continue to play them while complaining about how I don't like controlling multiple units—I think starcraft should just give every race a single mega 200 supply unit so that players such as myself don't have to deal with all the annoying army control. Or complaining about how all the different buildings are confusing; I think that there should be a standard progression so I just hit "build" and it automatically builds the next structure in the progression—that way all players have the exact same build order and it's fair!

That sounds pretty ridiculous right?

How about players that don't like combat? Should everyone instantly get max ilvl gear so they can just one shot stuff in the open world? And when SL dropped, we shouldn't have simply gotten 226 gear right at the start to instantly blast stuff, no no they shouldn't timegate the 9.2 gear. We should have had 278ilvl as soon as we hit 60. The open world mobs obviously still should be tuned around people in starter 180 gear though...obviously.

I think complaining about not getting flying right away is pretty similar.


Timegating story and grinds is no fun, but flying isn't really either of those. It's a feature that unlocks with a --.X patch the same way raids do.

Ultimately,
If running through the open world is boring, the solution should be to make it more interesting and/or rewarding.
And if you just don't like moving around in the open world between objectives, try an ARPG instead?

They haven't made a world mob beyond maybe an elite that doesn't die from auto attacks in 12 god damn years. If I can 1v 20 mobs without trying then just let me fly over them. It's mindless filler content strung together with misplaced currently you need for interesting modes.

The worst part about it is you can't make world content interesting as players simply dogpile it with numbers. Wow hasn't been a open world game since I woukd argue classic and even then dungeons and raids where the main focus.

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Yes, I see.
Let's apply that logic to all aspects of the game. Sliders for free rating for those pesky alts, or instant level 60 for alts. What about free gear as well while we are at it? Players who consider this a breakdown in proper game design can just not use it.

Why not in real life too? Remove all restrictions on PEDs in athletics, those who consider this a debasement of the sport can just not use them, easy.


Flying removes the meat and bones of open world content, asking for this to be the norm just tells me that the person doesn't actually care about That part of the game at all.

Why can't we have other means of making levelling easier if that is the issue? We already have heirlooms and catch-up gear, why do we also need a button that doesn't just make open world content easier, but flat out removes all but the data entry aspect of quests?

What meat and bones...? There isnt any depth or interesting world content.

[WowIsDead64]

Flying doesn't offer any gameplay beyond the tangential link that it lets you get to raids and such slightly faster by skipping other parts of the game.
If pro flyers really hate that open world content so much then the solution is, and always should be to ask Blizzard to let them avoid open world content, not make open world content pointless so they can get the benefits regardless.

Imagine if it worked like this for other aspects of the game. Mythic raiding is not fun to me, but I still want the transmogs, so just let me instakill bosses for the loot and the players who care about raiding can just choose to not use it.
All that faffing around with secret mounts is so boring, but it would be a shame if I didn't get the mount, so just give it to me in the mail once and the secret finding community can still run around and do obscure stuff if they really want to.

The worst part is that I genuinely don't see what players even need from the open world at this point to warrant requiring flying. It's certainly not playing the game for fun and exploring it the way it was intended, so to me it feels like arguing that Call of Duty should have aimbots to all players because I didn't like having to aim that one time I bothered to play an FPS.

"Flying removes content" argument is strange and really sounds like straw man exaggeration. Because all real content is usually done on a ground anyway, because your flying mount can't kill mobs or collect items for you. So, when you say something is removed, first you should explain, WHAT is removed.

[rrayy]

I was talking about Pathfinder in general. I think 6 months is still too long personally.

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Click a ground mount then?

Nobody is going to click a ground mount when flying is available as nobody is going to purposely gimp themselves. This is the point people keep ignoring.