So is the Wow community council dead?

[Zyky]

There is simple answer for this. It's ineffective development. They don't have resources to fix things. New xpack is developed, when previous xpack is still live. So, initially faulty design usually means whole xpack will be faulty. When xpack hits alpha/beta - it's already too late to fix anything, because they need to release xpack in time. Radical fixes, like entirely cutting some systems - mean money losses and cutting "content". And they think, that bad "content" is better, than no content at all. So they usually prefer to make gradual fixes. First they "milk" their "content", no matter how faulty it is, then they start to slowly "fix" it, not to cut too many "content" at once.

Why it happens in every xpack? Why can't they do things right right from the beginning? It's another big question. I can't call devs incompetent. I guess, they know, what they're doing. It's players, who should be blamed. They buy this game, no matter how bad it is. How many times should be repeat it? DON'T PREORDER!!! Why it's so hard to do? Why should they make good game, if they already have your money due to "record breaking first day sales"? Do you understand, that by pre-ordering xpack you show them, that everything is ok with it's design? Do you understand, that you should vote with your wallet - not forum posts?

P.S. Council has been dead right from the beginning. Because it consists of streamers and raid leaders, who don't represent majority of playerbase.

I agree with everything you've said here. Except I do blame the developers and management for being incompetent and they show it on a regular basis when they're making posts on twitter. For example the one person who said "nobody asked for this, well we the developers did". They've shown time and time again that the playerbase isn't their priority and that's on the developers, not the players.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Man, I remember when I said the community council was a useless PR stunt, and a ton of people jumped on me telling me how wrong I was.

I don't think anything has "changed" at all since then, other than most people's views on it. That it is, after all, just a useless PR stunt.

[Biomega]

That it is, after all, just a useless PR stunt.

Just like most "changes" they've announced to their management, corporate structure, workforce, etc.

It's the whole "our actions will speak louder than our words" meme all over again.

[Alanar]

I mean, most people are pretty aware that the council is a sham to begin with. Blizzard, specifically the WoW team in this discussion, has been doing the same thing for years now. The cycle has repeated itself for the last 4 expansions, it's not a coincidence anymore.

1) Alpha/Beta feedback for the most part entirely ignored
2) Game releases in an incomplete state with several game-breaking bugs, incomplete systems, class balance being a mess, and core features that are sloppily made
3) Players play the game for a month or two at the beginning of the expansion and quit in droves after post-launch feedback mostly ignored
4) WoW team makes some kind of statement saying "we're going to listen to you guys"
5) They implement some kind of non-fix that doesn't solve any issues with specific features and systems giving the illusion of "listening" (such as valor points this expansion)
6) Takes months for them to "listen" and even then insist on continuing the same failing philosophies (such as heavy time-gating and grinding)
7) The second players find a way to break out of the arduous and boring chores they force on the playerbase they quickly and heavily nerf it and call it an "exploit"
8) They make another statement and find some kind of idiotic way to pin the problems with the community perception of the game and "commit" to making a better game (in this case it's the Council)
9) They implement changes nobody asked for and go "see we're listening"
10) More players give up trying for the remainder of the expansion, continue quitting in droves, Blizzard acts confused as to why this is the case and makes a final statement saying "we'll do better next time, promise" and completely abandon the current expansion leaving it a sloppy mess for several months that nobody is happy with
11) Repeat from Step 1

Man.. yeaa.. it really does feel like this every year... talking about breaking the cycle? sadly they can't themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

There is simple answer for this. It's ineffective development.

I think you are right and for a long time now it just feels like they have no clear vision where to take wow next.

[Marxman]

Players who've been around for 10-15 years are not who you want to listen to. They are the ones that will stand by the game no matter how bad it gets,

This is just demonstrably false. Most of the old school (TBC and prior) players I know are long gone. They seem to be the ones most unhappy with modern WoW in my experience. My group came back for the start of SL and all had quit by March, because the game simply isn't good anymore.

[Therougetitan]

Blizzard has been on holidays for two weeks like they are ever year. Maybe OP should go out for a vacation instead to chill out.

[Miffinat0r]

It's honestly just due to the holidays, Blizz said activity over the holidays would be low (as it should be for any healthy workplace). We'll see if things start back up when people get back in the next week or so (and more people get invited).





As someone on the council, and quite frankly anyone who read the introduction thread would have known, it's definitely not just hardcore raiders/PvPers.

For every 1 non-raider/M+ key driver there's at least 3 Raiders/M+ players.

The council is largely made up of the same people that casual players feared would happen. Once again WoW devs deciding that only a certain type of content is what really drives players into playing the game.

Keep doing what the same thing and don't be confused when next expansion launch within 2 weeks you lost 60% of the new subs you gained.

Literally I can do a mock up of 3 people who would get selected by the council and it's exactly who you'd think got selected:


-----------------------------------------------
Hi--I'm Percius of Area 52. I am the GM and Raid Leader for team 1 of the guild Destiny's Mauraders. We're currently 10/10 Mythic SoD and we're working on getting our alts all to have CE. My main focuses are raiding, M+, and doing some collections. I wanted to take the time to point out our main concerns are the constant need to find players for raid teams, and to discuss the drop rates of certain items for certain classes. So far I belive 9.1.5 has been the best patch to date, and I'm so very grateful for Blizzard making an amazing game and asking me for feesback
-------------------------------------------------
Hello! I'm Allister of Ravenholdt. My focus has become more M+ although I am CE for raiding too with my guild Pelanor Fields. We've been in the WoW community for over 15 years. My concerns are the about the covenants, some PvP concerns, and I'd like to talk about the role damaging healers have in the Mythic Raiding scene. While I consider myself a casual now, as I don't race to finish Mythic ASAP, I still play with friends on a high level, and I'm looking forward to hearing feedback from all of you wonderful players!
----------------------------------------------------
Hi! I'm a Ving, a relatively new players, on Durotar. I have not been in WoW for very long now, but my guild and I did manage to get CE. I don't have a streaming channel, but we are around casual players. The concerns I've seen thus far have been around loot drop rates, and the inability to do Legion raids, I'm a mogger, and those are what I'm viewing as issues. I'm looking forward to meeting all of you!
----------------------------------------------------

These are just made up profiles, but from what I've read it's essentially those 3 people, add a high-end competitive PvP player, and one light Rper and you have the community council. Filled to the brim with Blizzard Yes people.

Even the last guy who claims to be "casual" somehow has CE.

Lol. Blizzard is so scared of casual players because it ruins their "git gud" mentality.

[Soisoisoi]

Even the last guy who claims to be "casual" somehow has CE.

Lol. Blizzard is so scared of casual players because it ruins their "git gud" mentality.

You realise casual doesn't mean they can't do raid/PvP content right? Unless of course you're using the usual go-to of "casual=bad" yourself.

[Lahis]

Nearly no members post blues seem to be avoiding it and what few posts are there seem to just grovel...

Is this project of yes men doomed to fail?

It was always meant to just offer the illusion that Blizz cares about player opinions.

[Cosmic Janitor]

You realise casual doesn't mean they can't do raid/PvP content right? Unless of course you're using the usual go-to of "casual=bad" yourself.

Casual does not imply bad, but it is usually also antithesis to organized 2-3 days a week rading in fixed groups of 20-25 people. Once you have an organized schedule you are not really a casual in the general meaning of the word, as getting CE requires a certain amount of dedication or monetary investment. Sure there may be the odd one that stumbles upon it by accident, but claiming it to be normal to refer to oneself as casual and then having cutting edge rading achievments is more than suspect.

[Miffinat0r]

I never once bought into the line "Oh I'm a casual, I have CE."

Old buddy of mine who used to play hardcore in TBC-WoTLK browsed the forum and came back and told me if someone is saying they're "casual" but have the highest achievement for raiding, then they ain't casual.

[Schizoide]

You need to find people who care enough to really dig in and lead the community from the front and are sufficiently knowledgeable about the game so their posts are well-supported and actionable. Many people who've played long enough to have the knowledge are burned out and either barely play (like me) or quit already.

So those that remain, yes, a lot of them are leading raiding guilds and competitive PvP and mythic+ or whatever, simply because the real casuals don't post on forums at all, much less apply to join a special council for a game they play casually.

[Miffinat0r]

You need to find people who care enough to really dig in and lead the community from the front and are sufficiently knowledgeable about the game so their posts are well-supported and actionable. Many people who've played long enough to have the knowledge are burned out and either barely play (like me) or quit already.

So those that remain, yes, a lot of them are leading raiding guilds and competitive PvP and mythic+ or whatever, simply because the real casuals don't post on forums at all, much less apply to join a special council for a game they play casually.

But that's not true. There are whole ton of consistent casual players posting on the forums, from the WoW Forums (That's the most), Here (Less so), Massively OP (Probably has the largest contingent of casual players), and Reddit (Hardly any over there as mods delete posts)

[Schizoide]

In my experience there are an absolute ton of casual players posting on forums simply because the vast majority of subscribers play casually, but you said "consistent" and that does not line up with what I see. They come and they go, people who play a couple hours per week aren't consistently participating in forums over time. Obviously that's a generalization and we're talking millions of people here so I'm sure there are exceptions.

[The Stormbringer]

Address a letter to "Community Council" and drop it in the nearest postal box, according to apparently most people's opinions on the council that should have the same effect.

Kidding aside, I'm only planning on representing and talking about issues I personally care about and those that come from parts of the WoW community I'm heavily involved with. I don't think you can fairly represent/defend or even constructively talk about ideas that aren't ones you fully support.

If, after finding and reading my introduction post on the council forums you think your ideas are still relevant to my planned subjects and might be something I agree with, feel free to drop me a DM.

Ah yes, the data-mining, hype, and speculation community.

But more seriously, what would you say are your personal interests here? Or would you prefer to remain quiet on them? No pressure, just curious.

[klaps_05]

If you consider that all types of players are involved in order to have diversity on the community council, then what exactly is the difference to the regular feedback forums? Outside of a few clout chasing andys being responsible for nearly all the posts, that whole forum section is as useful as the existing ones, i.e. its not.

[Lochton]

Nearly no members post blues seem to be avoiding it and what few posts are there seem to just grovel...

Is this project of yes men doomed to fail?

Doubt it? I just think it is hit with a case of the seasons. Hopefully, people will take their requests seriously to be in the council.

[OokOok]

It is made up of yes men. Even if Blizzard did listen to them, the council is primarily made up of hardcore players: raiders and pvpers. Casuals, the majority of WoW's audience, are not represented, much like how WoW's modern dev team is run by hardcore raiders turned devs. So the WoW playerbase will continue to be neglected.

WoW is in the most casual state it's ever been in, the vast majority of devs are casuals. How delusional can you be

[Candlewick]

WoW is in the most casual state it's ever been in, the vast majority of devs are casuals. How delusional can you be

It's the reverse actually but wow players struggle to understand casual isnt a question of skill but time investment. Right now to keep up with all the power systems you need to invest more time then ever before into the game.

[Marlamin]

For every 1 non-raider/M+ key driver there's at least 3 Raiders/M+ players.

The council is largely made up of the same people that casual players feared would happen. Once again WoW devs deciding that only a certain type of content is what really drives players into playing the game.

Writing off players as a raider and then automatically "yes people" is a pretty bad and binary way of looking at things, them having stepped foot in current raid content doesn't automatically make them hardcore raiders nor does it mean they agree with everything Blizzard does (the definition of "yes people"). Almost all describe a multi-faceted playstyle that isn't just raiding.

Opposed to what people said earlier in the thread (and what I was replying to), there are several that care about accessibility, multiple that care about roleplaying, multiple that care about collecting things, at least two that care about API/addon stuff all in all making it pretty representative, considering there are currently only ~30-40 members.

Ah yes, the data-mining, hype, and speculation community.

But more seriously, what would you say are your personal interests here? Or would you prefer to remain quiet on them? No pressure, just curious.

I haven't done any proper datamining in a while and I think everyone can agree that the hype/speculation isn't really being fed as much as it used to by Blizzard. While I might have the most public appearance in those communities, it is not my primary interest.

My primary interest is in developing tools that allow artists to get stuff from WoW to use in their art/machinima, addon authors to get data to use in their addons, devs to get implementation information for their projects and even D&D players to get maps from the game to base their games on. All of this is extremely niche and I can probably count most of the people sharing this interest without running out of fingers, but it is a often underappreciated/unknown backbone in supporting things that people use/see every day. I'm planning on quitting this year and am sadly not alone in that, so I'm hoping to note some of the issues the aforementioned parts of the community will start having in the next few content cycles. While I believe any posts about these subjects will likely be in vain due to their dataminey nature, I think it is worth posting about in the off-chance it is not and at least I'll have tried.

I have some other interests as well, but I also mention those (and most of the above) in my introduction post so it probably isn't worth repeating here.