Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

[Coniferous]

I am 100% pro-flying and always have been.
WoW is a better game with flying mounts. Even when it was that slow as molasses flight we all had in early TBC, it was amazing to be able to go anywhere in Outland.

The statement made around removing flight was so they could make more compelling/engaging/immersive game play but I'm still waiting for that to happen. They never delivered on this. Shitty jump puzzles was not it. WoW is an MMORPG and sucks big time as a platformer to this day despite the continued presence of jump puzzles.
IF they had delivered, and that's a big if, on the idea of better content with the absence of flight I may have changed my opinion.
Also, the underhanded attempt at removing it in WoD soured any chance of players fully accepting Pathfinder, which was only added to avoid a mass exodus of the remaining players at the time.



So why did you try to use real life physics as an argument just a couple posts ago?

This, 1000%. Also, the world design is just horrendously shitty. I think in their attempt to make the world "challenging" they just made it annoying. Hard to find the cave entrance 60 yards from the quest marker, quests on a timer ("Turtle has..."), layered zones that are frustrating to get around.

They can't make world questing good and still have people playing such variable specs - how the hell do you make content that's challenging for a holy priest but also a bear? So they just added to the annoyance factor.

[Orange Joe]

The physics that say the guy in full plate will eventually have to come back down and that fireball burns people. Meanwhile, go look up how many people actually came back from the dead. I imagine you're going to be rather surprised by how short that list is outside of demons and other externals with explicit reincarnation opportunities.

Is this the same physics that allow rocks to float in westfall?

[Rucati]

Yes, they rather bully a part of their playerbase.

I've thought about it for a minute now and I literally have absolutely no fucking idea what it is you're talking about rofl.

[catalystical]

I like to do both.

My "gate" is easy and obvious and probably brought up somewhere in this long thread. Flying is something to be earned. If you want to have access to flying, you gotta do your part and explore the entire map and finish up the storyline first. This is what pathfinding should be. Once you've done your part exploring the entire map, you are then rewarded with flying.

The problem with how Blizz has done it is they've gated it behind the .1 or .2 patches. A simple fix really. Just let us have flying the moment we've done pathfinding.

[WowIsDead64]

I am not saying you don't like it because you want it to be easy. I am saying you don't like it because when I list reasons why flying takes away from gameplay with nothing in return your only recourse is to state how you don't like the open world.

What is the actual open world gamepaly you are actually enjoying if not the actual open world? Is it really as shallow as seeing the world without interracting with it, going straight to your objective and not engaging with any of the gameplay elements?

If I asked if you enjoyed recreational biking, and you said you hated the biking part, but liked having a bike in your shed, I might wonder what you consider biking.

Then it's something wrong with your definition of "open world", because this game didn't have any of this content prior to MOP, but all of a sudden it still was "open world". "Open world" - is nothing more, than opposite to instanced content. I.e. place, where all players of some realm can possibly meet (if we won't take CRZ/sharding into account, that make outdoor content look more like instanced). It isn't required to have some specific features, like navigation puzzles, jump puzzles or treasures. So, please stop using made up arguments.

I call it "sandbox" content, not "open world". It's good for small isolated isles, not real open world. Major problems with Blizzards' current design: 1) This design is forced on whole world (for example no flying is pointless for leveling) 2) This "sandbox" isles are made mandatory (see Maw/Korthia).

You say, that flying is against "open world" design? I can also say, that we still play RPG and therefore this game still should have RPG design. Current "sandbox" outdoor design isn't RPGish. Because RPG should give you some feeling of "beating enemies", while too small locations, exceeding density of mobs and respawn rate kill this feeling. So, whole game boils down to "number game", that is about filling pointless bars with some pointless numbers via killing pointless endless mobs. Flying - is bandaid, that fixes around 50% of this problem.

[Tertullian72]

I have no objection to a basic pathfinder, but the critical change I'd make is no time gating. Set up an initial requirement to go through all the quests in the new zones, maybe with an exploration component, and reach max level. Once you do that, you get flying (this could be a quest line to make it more interesting). None of this "wait for patch 8.2/9.1" crap. For the last few expansions I've simply stopped playing until flying comes out, since my time isn't worth wasting after the initial content is done.

Should Blizzard ever forget the lessons of WoD and listen to the no-fly people again, that would be my ticket out.

[PedroloGeo]

I don’t want neither of both options. Flying should be unlockable just reaching max level… for 2 million gold. Done. It requires some effort for some casual players, but most players have it the moment they ding, and it removes gold from the bloated economy.

[terminaltrip421]

it was always gated behind something so I'm fine with pathfinder, what I'm not okay with is gating it behind a future patch.

[Kumorii]

I don’t want neither of both options. Flying should be unlockable just reaching max level… for 2 million gold. Done. It requires some effort for some casual players, but most players have it the moment they ding, and it removes gold from the bloated economy.

How would most players have 2 mill when they ding?

[Candlewick]

I mean good things like raid level gear, recipes for the best enchants and equipment mods, and such. We used to have good things on rep vendors until MoP. When people complained to the high heavens about having to actually play the game and get rep on their toons and not just be able to raidlog. So from WoD onward we just have optional cosmetics. And then people complained about the reps being worthless. /shrug

We still have that... gear just started to be given out like candy so usually yoir full heroic raid gear by the time you hit exalted.

Enchants are annoying but toleratable equipment mods shoukd never of been tied to mindless content like dailies.

[Deneios]

So what exactly is your point? Because the last 2-3 expansions have tons of fly paths and are still empty. Shit content is still shit regardless of fly paths. Adding stupidity to the insult they made fly paths connect through oribos this time. Like yeah its not enough that you zone into a shithole with no way out but a fly path or Hearthstone then you have to move through oribos and make the 30 second trip into a 5 min journey because the game must show players logged for a lot more than they actually spend playing.

There is no way to justify removal of mobility in current age. At some point they must realize that their customers are neither new nor young so they must suit the game to fit them and not an imaginary crowd that will supposedly revive the dead cow that is wow at the moment.

Im not against you. I just pointed out that world content and player visibility is tied to intrest of the said content.

[WowIsDead64]

I'm unsubbed now. But I've created trial character to test things for 100500th time. And yeah. Problem is exactly the same, as always. Exceeding and overused combat. Yeah. It's ok, when you need to have good positioning, careful pulling, properly using your class abilities. Till that exact moment, when mobs start to respawn on a top of your head 10 seconds after killing them. First of all - all your skill and abilities are thrown to trash. Because in this case only thing, that matters - if you have enough gear to just non-stop AOE these mobs. Second thing - that feeling, that you just waste your time. If mobs respawn almost immediately anyway, then it's completely pointless to kill them in a first place. Whole point in killing them - is to clear location to make your business there safer. If this goal isn't achievable, then it's pointless to do it. Third thing - this annoyance. When you need to talk with quest giver, but that mob constantly respawns 1m away and interrupts you. Only thing, you want to say in this case - is DIE ALREADY.

I don't know, why anti-flyers defend such mechanics and use "outdoor mechanics" as their major argument. Because it really sounds like "It's ok to have faulty mechanics". Why? Because no matter, if mechanics are good or bad - they make game "harder"? And all hardcore players need - is hard game just for sake of hard game? How about no? If mechanics are so broken, then there is nothing bad in avoiding them. And in order to make this argument viable, Blizzard first need to fix them. And this can't be done so easily, as just enabling flying. World should be designed properly right from the beginning. I.e. even prior to Alpha or Beta. But first Blizzard should realize this problem. It would be hard, because it seems, that they don't care. And even in this case we still can't be 100% sure, that everything will be done properly.

That's why it would be much better to have difficulty levels instead. At least this would be some defined direction of development, that would give us some guarantees, that if something would be broken or would match this direction - it would be fixed. Not that "We change our mind and make it broken harder, just because we want it reasons. Period."

[Nynax]

it was always gated behind something so I'm fine with pathfinder, what I'm not okay with is gating it behind a future patch.

This. I'm okay with having to earn it, but it's a little disingenuous they way Blizz is like "You'll totally be able to unlock it...later, when we feel like letting you, maybe. Feelin' cute right now, might delete."

[WowIsDead64]

I've just realized, how flying helps me to make game better. Every quest usually has fun part and annoying part. So, I usually use flying to complete annoying part as quick, as possible, and then just switch to relax mode and compete fun part in meditative mode. And... it helps a lot!

Blizzard call it "playing effectively", I call it "getting fun".

[TBCCLOL]

No it isn't because this is a MONTHLY PAID GAME so paying to re-earn something we already have since TBC aka Flying is demented.

Especially if behind timegating like a mobile game.

Warzone is free and has timegate stuff so is "okish" but not when you pay to fucking wait.



The only proper way to gate is if is a new exp or zone and the flying is unlocked after doing the zone story ( in max 1 week if is a x.2 patch or 3 week if it is a 9.0 - like they did for Endwalker)


Example : Once you get to Zereth Mortis we find out that we cant fly because Zovaal activated some beacon that lazer any flying object but at the end of the story zone we deactivate/destroy them and we are free to fly

Total time : 1 week of playing not farming not waiting

[WowIsDead64]

No it isn't because this is a MONTHLY PAID GAME so paying to re-earn something we already have since TBC aka Flying is demented.

Especially if behind timegating like a mobile game.

Warzone is free and has timegate stuff so is "okish" but not when you pay to fucking wait.



The only proper way to gate is if is a new exp or zone and the flying is unlocked after doing the zone story ( in max 1 week if is a x.2 patch or 3 week if it is a 9.0 - like they did for Endwalker)


Example : Once you get to Zereth Mortis we find out that we cant fly because Zovaal activated some beacon that lazer any flying object but at the end of the story zone we deactivate/destroy them and we are free to fly

Total time : 1 week of playing not farming not waiting

Blizzard do exactly this. But there is smart trick. To say, that story ends in patch x.2 and we don't truly "experience" content before that.

[roboscorcher]

Blizzard do exactly this. But there is smart trick. To say, that story ends in patch x.2 and we don't truly "experience" content before that.

I think the Pathfinder is far too grindy.

I like having a period where flying is inaccessible - when a zone is brand new. But once the flying capabilities are available, just make it a quick quest or something.

[Vorkreist]

Flying does not offer any gameplay at all. Ground movement does.

You are delusional. Flying offers me the entire gameplay by making the 1000 grinds and stupid world quests less tedious. It offers me the entire gameplay because without it I would stop playing. Your silly examples makes no sense in the context of what the game actually is and does. Literally 99% of content is a stupid and annoying grind and flying at least speeds up the process.
You talk as if the game is played like logging 2 times a month to actually play only for those silly examples like "climbing a mountain" or the joys of choosing which ground path is less tedious and shit on your way to a stupid world quest.

[Sluvs]

No it isn't because this is a MONTHLY PAID GAME so paying to re-earn something we already have since TBC aka Flying is demented.

Especially if behind timegating like a mobile game.

Warzone is free and has timegate stuff so is "okish" but not when you pay to fucking wait.



The only proper way to gate is if is a new exp or zone and the flying is unlocked after doing the zone story ( in max 1 week if is a x.2 patch or 3 week if it is a 9.0 - like they did for Endwalker)


Example : Once you get to Zereth Mortis we find out that we cant fly because Zovaal activated some beacon that lazer any flying object but at the end of the story zone we deactivate/destroy them and we are free to fly

Total time : 1 week of playing not farming not waiting

Tbf, you are earning the ability to fly in the new zones. So you are not as much as re-earning them, but expanding you ability.

That being said, i simpathyze with your point.

Pathfinder would make sense if they designed the land around flying and made ground exploration a thing. They didn't.

There was a little bit of that in Suramar. But we havent seen it done properly ever since Wrath. Your example would be cool to be honest.

Sadly I dont see any interesting choices being made by the developers, they will stick with pathfinder or give up on it. Both solutions are easy ones. And boring Ones.

[idkwhatgoeshere]

I wish they'd remove pathfinder but disable flying in war mode. With extra rewards. It can't be catch up gear cause this people will just camp alts but it needs something.

- - - Updated - - -

Tbf, you are earning the ability to fly in the new zones. So you are not as much as re-earning them, but expanding you ability.

That being said, i simpathyze with your point.

Pathfinder would make sense if they designed the land around flying and made ground exploration a thing. They didn't.

There was a little bit of that in Suramar. But we havent seen it done properly ever since Wrath. Your example would be cool to be honest.

Sadly I dont see any interesting choices being made by the developers, they will stick with pathfinder or give up on it. Both solutions are easy ones. And boring Ones.

Pathfinder did make sense at the time and it clearly wasn't stopping wod from doing well initially.