What do you think of Steve Danuser's lore work as Lead Narrative Designer?

[Lothaeryn]

snip

that "if" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I doubt the amount of effort Danauser has made (for lack of a better term, cause he sure as fuck doesn't know what the word means) to get Sylvanas to this point implies there will be either redemption or retribution. I highly doubt its the latter in this case, but we'll see.

So far we've been dealing with Sylvanas as she stands from TFT onwards, as Undead, her former consciousness being restored like a hard drive system restore doesnt jive either. The writer's intent is either to make the character suffer to grow(as per your 'reflection point'), or the redeem former failings that otherwise would demand punishment.

Given Danauser's disposition towards Sylvanas I greatly doubt this setup isn't being used to justify some sort of redemption arc. Either case, the self reflection done from this arc isn't earned and its more hamfisted than Illidan's to say the least.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

that "if" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I doubt the amount of effort Danauser has made (for lack of a better term, cause he sure as fuck doesn't know what the word means) to get Sylvanas to this point implies there will be either redemption or retribution. I highly doubt its the latter in this case, but we'll see.

So far we've been dealing with Sylvanas as she stands from TFT onwards, as Undead, her former consciousness being restored like a hard drive system restore doesnt jive either. The writer's intent is either to make the character suffer to grow(as per your 'reflection point'), or the redeem former failings that otherwise would demand punishment.

Given Danauser's disposition towards Sylvanas I greatly doubt this setup isn't being used to justify some sort of redemption arc. Either case, the self reflection done from this arc isn't earned and its more hamfisted than Illidan's to say the least.

Oh I don't disagree this is being used to set up a redemption arc, that feels evident to me as well. What I disagree is on the mechanics, I don't think it's an "evil twin" trope at play, but a "look what you have become" moment for her, to see who she was and what she has become, and correct course. That's why the

her former consciousness being restored like a hard drive system restore doesnt jive either

doesn't feel apropos to the story either, because that also goes against how Uther describes the soul split, and how he talks about it on Shattered Memories.

I might be wrong, but that's the read I am getting so far; for sure they wanna go for the redemption route, that's not much of a doubt for me, I just don't think the manner of it is by resetting her to an earlier, more innocent version, but more of a metaphorical change of heart where she's confronted by what she has done through a younger version of herself.

But yeah, I don't think that a "Oh now I see I was being a little bit to extra you guys" sells the redemption arc either, because you really can't just have a character walk around a mass murder by saying "that's on me" and move forward.

Cause that's the issue, IMO the deal is that we are clearly being "manipulated" into thinking "see, she wasn't always evil, she is just misguided! she made mistakes" But yeah, that doesn't make her BfA evil mustache twirl any more nuanced.

[Super Dickmann]

Cause that's the issue, IMO the deal is that we are clearly being "manipulated" into thinking "see, she wasn't always evil, she is just misguided! she made mistakes" But yeah, that doesn't make her BfA evil mustache twirl any more nuanced.

You could give Tolstoy this shit and he still wouldn't be able to wrangle those portrayals into flowing into each other because pre-BFA Sylvanas, BFA Sylvanas and SL Sylvanas might as well be separate characters that inherit the barest broad strokes of their previous versions. BFA Sylvanas wasn't even a character so much as a plot device dispensing evil quips then exiting stage left and SL would have been unable to make that mesh into a redemption arc even if a redemption arc was a good idea or it had the writing chops to do so, neither of which is the case.

[Magnagarde]

You could give Tolstoy this shit and he still wouldn't be able to wrangle those portrayals into flowing into each other because pre-BFA Sylvanas, BFA Sylvanas and SL Sylvanas might as well be separate characters that inherit the barest broad strokes of their previous versions. BFA Sylvanas wasn't even a character so much as a plot device dispensing evil quips then exiting stage left and SL would have been unable to make that mesh into a redemption arc even if a redemption arc was a good idea or it had the writing chops to do so, neither of which is the case.

Even Tolstoy would throw his hands up in disbelief, give Anduin an axe and have him kill Sylvanas, then have him turn himself in to the police.

[SinR]

He must have something on the higher ups, I've never heard of someone be so unanimously criticised keep there role in a job

- - - Updated - - -

The most amusing thing about the recent Sylvanas revelations, she goes from one of the few powerful female figures in wow that isn't a caricature to the lamest female character ever "the big evil man forced me"

People say Danuser simps for Sylvanas, if that's true he's not doing a good job because he's systematically destroying everything people liked about her - hell I liked Sylvanas a lot pre-bfa

I think the idea is to make her atone for the crimes of the Banshee Queen by helping us take down Jailer and comes back with us to Azeroth. I'd love to see her head roll, but Danuser won't let that happen. I think at worst she's going to be sent to Rivendreth to further atone for what she did and (Hopefully) is never heard from again.

[Ersula]

You could give Tolstoy this shit and he still wouldn't be able to wrangle those portrayals into flowing into each other because pre-BFA Sylvanas, BFA Sylvanas and SL Sylvanas might as well be separate characters that inherit the barest broad strokes of their previous versions. BFA Sylvanas wasn't even a character so much as a plot device dispensing evil quips then exiting stage left and SL would have been unable to make that mesh into a redemption arc even if a redemption arc was a good idea or it had the writing chops to do so, neither of which is the case.

Clearly, (because apparently we analyze the story closer than the billion dollar company does their product) we've figured out the problem with the story lies in the story telling: (Insert game of thrones finale reference here)

What they should have focused on to tell this particular story: Sylvanas' perspective. Forgiveness. Trauma. What our heroes would or could have done in her situation.

What they shouldn't have focused on: Soul shit, Elune, giving anduin long conversations with sylvanas about things he can't possibly understand

[loras]

Is there a way to isolate what he has done from the rest of WoW? Because i think we're better off just sticking to hating on the parts that sucked rather than going ad hominem.

[Zendhal The Black]

People say Danuser simps for Sylvanas, if that's true he's not doing a good job because he's systematically destroying everything people liked about her - hell I liked Sylvanas a lot pre-bfa

Because he's a terrible writer... He knows people dislike sylvanas storyline and want her dead, but he keeps her alive and tryes to write a compeling story so that people start liking her (like he does) but all he acomplished is, that her story is even more dumb (like trying to extinguish burning oil on a frying pan with water... shit just explodes and burn everything)

Just look at the fiasco with burning the tree, when we were in suspension what could have happened, who really burned the tree, some bigger conspiracy behind it and the revelation was... burn it because my feeling are hurt

then we have a shit like "I will never serve (Draenor is free!)" that just reeks like some other storyline was cut out and old dirty bandaid taken out of trash has been applied on the wound...

now we have suddenly "a good" sylvanas out of nowhere, merging with the bad one and we're friends now mkay?

All of this seems like there's no roadmap, no planning, no plans, just writing on the spot with the rule of cool that turns horribly bad

Wow story was never really a great one, just above average, but now it's pathetic to a point that stuff like "It's all just a dream N'zoth put us into" seems like a GoT season 3 storytelling

I never really liked sylvanas since Warcraft 3, but up to end of MoP, Sylvie was like Loki from MCU, a character you can relate with and actually love... Nowadays she's just Joffrey Baratheon from GoT (well he was actually well written...) a character you just despise and hate and can't wait for a moment when he bites a dust so you can pop a champagne and celebrate that little shit to be dead

[Syegfryed]

All of this seems like there's no roadmap, no planning, no plans, just writing on the spot with the rule of cool that turns horribly bad

there more you read the history, the more you see that indeed, there is no plan and they don't think far ahead, they do things without thinking further in the consequences of their action, and ending up with problems "owo, shit", like killing characters that would mean something, or would be important, in the future.

Like, "reforging" the helm of domination is a clearly example of doing something by the rule of cool(or trying) and not thinking forward what that shit would mean to the playerbase, to the game and for the story, like what the fuck would happen with the scourge unleashed upon the world? they didn't think about that, and will come up with a lame ass explanation.

yeah, they know the "overall plot" but besides that is a clusterfuck.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Late Legion you say...

hmm, is he the reason why Tyrande and the order of Elune were cut from the Broken shore, and night elves/nightborne just basically disappeared from featuring mainly in the story of the Broken shore onwards?

I always thought that was sloppy, i mean the order of Elune should have been the one going to the order halls, and leading the fight to reclaim their temple, but they were really ignored

Night elves cut out of the Argus trip almost entirely.. and I wonder if he was the one championing the Nightborne going horde, totally rubbishing their 7.0 storyline and confusing Thalyssra's character, who one minute talks about being a world defender, then joins the faction that goes conquering in the next?

Was he also responsible for the slap dash void elf lore?

Yes. Everything including the Antorus end cinematic to now has been shit. Sargeras had no reason to NOT be killed.

[Soon-TM]

Nowadays she's just Joffrey Baratheon from GoT (well he was actually well written...) a character you just despise and hate and can't wait for a moment when he bites a dust so you can pop a champagne and celebrate that little shit to be dead

Geoffrey Baratheon may have been a smug, obnoxiously self-centered, arrogant twat - but the rest of the cast (and the whole plot itself) didn't bend over themselves in order to imply that "hey, he isn't so bad after all, he AKSHUALLY regrets what he did!". The guy was an utter jerkass, and with good reason - that was how Cersei had raised him, in the first place - and he simply lacked the intelligence to actually assess the very precarious situation he had been thrown into. He lived like an asshole, and died like one.

Man, it says something when you wish you were dealing with Geoffrey boi instead of this obnoxious Mary Sue...

[KaiserSolarius]

Geoffrey Baratheon may have been a smug, obnoxiously self-centered, arrogant twat - but the rest of the cast (and the whole plot itself) didn't bend over themselves in order to imply that "hey, he isn't so bad after all, he AKSHUALLY regrets what he did!". The guy was an utter jerkass, and with good reason - that was how Cersei had raised him, in the first place - and he simply lacked the intelligence to actually assess the very precarious situation he had been thrown into. He lived like an asshole, and died like one.

Man, it says something when you wish you were dealing with Geoffrey boi instead of this obnoxious Mary Sue...

Also, Geoffrey at least had some moments of lucidity, like when he was rightly worried about the dragon chick. That's not something I can say for Sylvanas "What do you mean the Jailer want to control me ?" Windrunner.

[Le Conceptuel]

Even Tolstoy would throw his hands up in disbelief, give Anduin an axe and have him kill Sylvanas, then have him turn himself in to the police.

That's Dostoevsky.

[ArenaDk]

Last time i enjoyed the writing in wow was in Wrath and even then it was just alright and the arthas story was far from original but it had it's moments. Now it's just a joke.

What did you enjoy about the woltk lore exactly ? Kinda would interest me. Cartoon villain arthas durring the quests , appearing laughing and after loosing saying he will get us next time ?

How we ignored the lich king to fight 10 other conflicts over the expansion ?
The forced in alliance vs horde comflict ?
The over hyping of the scourges danger for the world ?

[Zirelle]

There are some good stories in Shadowlands, but I wouldn't say any of the large scale ones (Meaning the ones that the narrative is focused on telling) are them.

There are a lot of smaller stories in the zones that I quite liked a lot. Ara'lon, Pelagos/Kleia (Until he becomes the Arbiter at least), Lady Vashj, the Accuser, is all good stuff.

I'm not giving credit for those to Danuser because he clearly is only focused on telling his overarching story of his Thanos stand in without any of the build up of the MCU. Frankly I don't find anything he's seemingly personally invested in telling good.

[Magnagarde]

That's Dostoevsky.

I was waiting for a correction after I first posted it, was kinda puzzled nobody corrected it yet haha this sub is usually sharp when it comes to that

[omeomorfismo]

frankly i loved his short story about nathanos and i just cant believe he is the same that wrote or let pass that farce...

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

You could give Tolstoy this shit and he still wouldn't be able to wrangle those portrayals into flowing into each other because pre-BFA Sylvanas, BFA Sylvanas and SL Sylvanas might as well be separate characters that inherit the barest broad strokes of their previous versions. BFA Sylvanas wasn't even a character so much as a plot device dispensing evil quips then exiting stage left and SL would have been unable to make that mesh into a redemption arc even if a redemption arc was a good idea or it had the writing chops to do so, neither of which is the case.

Exactly. Once again, the crux of the issue is BfA's portrayal of her that used her as a plot device for Saurfang's arc, without caring about any prior set up, nor worrying about the next expansion that was SO heavily tied to Sylvanas.

It was just such a dumb decision, they kneecapped any resonance Shadowlands might have, and it's hard to see it as anything but sabotage, because how the hell do you make ostensibly the *protagonist* of your next expansion so unlikeable in the current one? That's just hating the guy that has to write that, and as much as I don't like certain aspects of Danuser's writing, the guy got such a raw deal.

Doesn't make me like his penchant of going all in on the cosmic stuff any more in any case, but yeah, it's the difference between being perceived as "flawed" and "unsalvageable".

And to make it clear, this is not about being against Sylvanas being made evil, a villain turn would have been fine, but it is SO damn evident that wasn't the intention of Shadowlands, so whomever wrote her arc on BfA didn't care one single bit about any repercussions.

[Syegfryed]

Exactly. Once again, the crux of the issue is BfA's portrayal of her that used her as a plot device for Saurfang's arc, without caring about any prior set up, nor worrying about the next expansion that was SO heavily tied to Sylvanas.

It was just such a dumb decision, they kneecapped any resonance Shadowlands might have, and it's hard to see it as anything but sabotage, because how the hell do you make ostensibly the *protagonist* of your next expansion so unlikeable in the current one? That's just hating the guy that has to write that, and as much as I don't like certain aspects of Danuser's writing, the guy got such a raw deal.

you simple don't, make her the protagonist of your next expansion, isn't that simple.

She was being set as possible villain since cataclysm, BfA went to make her a full villain working for the janitor.

And in shadowlands dude wen all fanboy wanting his waifu to be protagonist who save us all, its simple don't work, and he deserve all the hate for not seeing how this would be an idiotic approach of a dumb storytelling.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

you simple don't, make her the protagonist of your next expansion, isn't that simple.

She was being set as possible villain since cataclysm, BfA went to make her a full villain working for the janitor.

And in shadowlands dude wen all fanboy wanting his waifu to be protagonist who save us all, its simple don't work, and he deserve all the hate for not seeing how this would be an idiotic approach of a dumb storytelling.

You're missing the point; we all know they work in two expansions at the same time, so they knew what they were going to do with Sylvanas next expansion. Two different teams might have different characterizations that might lead to some oddness in portrayal, but the level of disconnect here is incredible to the point it comes across as self sabotage.

It's way too easy to just blame Danuser when it was BfA the one that hard left with Sylvanas, who up until Legion had that big question mark. That's the huge red flag with BfA, it removed all the nuance necessary to carry Sylvanas from Legion to Shadowlands, cause, again, by BfA they already knew what the next expansion the other team was working on.

The problem isn't that BfA made her a villain, the problem is that BfA made her a villain without consideration of the story the next expansion was going to tell.

Sure, I can blame Danuser for being overconfident and thinking he could turn around the Sylvanas perception to tell the already planned story, but BfA's failure to even live to the potential of Sylvanas as a compelling villain, instead going mustache twirling with her, is just worse. Sylvanas was a character we have been following since Warcraft III and BfA did it's best to completely destroy her appeal and turn her into a 2 dimensional villain, just like BC did for Kael'thas and Illidan.

Maybe they should have shelved the story and reframe Sylvanas little by little or let enough time pass as they did with Illidan, but the fact that her characterization in BfA is so anathema of how integral she was to Shadowlands, to me speaks far more direly about the lack of organization and overseeing between the teams working on the different expansions.

Because this is the basic truth: If Danuser was in charge of BfA's narrative, he wouldn't have written his waifu as a fucking sociopath.