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  1. #101
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    When you factor in things like the LFR I doubt that participation numbers are nearly as low as you're suggesting here. That said, raiding is the thing WoW does better than all other MMOs and it's always been the games' biggest appeal. WoW didn't become the most popular MMO of all time because of Ogri'la dailies.
    You're probably not wrong about LFR which is why I always specify organized raiding when we talk about stuff like this. I like having LFR around but have never been convinced that it should be counted as raiding although I can understand why others disagree with this.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    The Pareto principle applies to basically everything with almost supernatural accuracy. Almost every business is structured around it, and certainly game monetization is.

    But if you are unable or unwilling to understand this, that's okay. You do you, posting on these forums 100 plus times a day.
    That is a long way of saying "I don't have any evidence."

    Notice that I didn't say anything about 80/20. I simply asked you how you determined that the raiders were the 20, which you clearly cannot demonstrate or you would have. We have no evidence that this is the case, and we can make up reasons all we want for either side, but without data it is pointless and obnoxious for you to speak with such unearned confidence. I'll just make up reasons I am right: RPers are the real 20 because they are more likely to buy cosmetics, name changes, etc.. Do I have data? Nope, but it FEEEELS right so I can declare it is true!

    Oh, let me guess "It feeeeeels right" only works for you. How convenient.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I think what Lorgar is missing here is:
    Uhh not to tute my own horn but I'm basically the pricing person for a major company that markets based on customer share and identities, and uh I've never heard of this.

    Low hanging fruit, growth, keep it simple stupid, and white glove are concepts I'm aware of.
    Rigid adherence to things like the Pareto principle is what happens when people have a lot of experience with business classes and not a lot of experience with actual business. But it's not worth arguing it with people like that. It's a religious fervor for them.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That is a long way of saying "I don't have any evidence."

    Notice that I didn't say anything about 80/20. I simply asked you how you determined that the raiders were the 20, which you clearly cannot demonstrate or you would have. We have no evidence that this is the case, and we can make up reasons all we want for either side, but without data it is pointless and obnoxious for you to speak with such unearned confidence. I'll just make up reasons I am right: RPers are the real 20 because they are more likely to buy cosmetics, name changes, etc.. Do I have data? Nope, but it FEEEELS right so I can declare it is true!

    Oh, let me guess "It feeeeeels right" only works for you. How convenient.
    Hot take here: I'd be shocked with the current level of WoW subs if maybe maybe more than 7% did Mythic, 12% did Heroic, and 30% did Normal.

    I think the real numbers are 32-14-4

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I think what Lorgar is missing here is:

    If islands/torg were tied to progression as an alternative progression but it was still equal to other forms of progression the answer almost always is this:

    WHY DO YOU NEED THAT GEAR YOUR NOT DOING THE CONTENT!

    Thus forcing inequality from real life into the virtual world.
    I always respond to this with "Ok, then the final mythic boss shouldn't drop gear".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Said this before I'll say it again:

    I've never seen players leave en masse over a game becoming easier or more accessible.

    Harder though, that'll cause players to quit.
    I'm not disagreeing. Hell we have evidence to support this. Back in Cata when the dungeons and raids first came out everyone cried about how hard it was (after a ton of crying about how easy it was in Wrath) and Ghostcrawler made his Get good post. People basically went "fuck this" and left in numbers that would have been WoD level if the additions to LFR and Ghostcrawler apology didn't happen.

  6. #106
    Raiding has always been been their top priority since vanilla.

    I mean, pretty much all the new content added in vanilla was raid content.

    The game had gotten a bit more to do beside that since then, but raiding is still baby #1 to them.

    And it's not hard to see when you look at how dead and neglected the rest of the game (maybe less so M+) and the world is.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Hot take here: I'd be shocked with the current level of WoW subs if maybe maybe more than 7% did Mythic, 12% did Heroic, and 30% did Normal.

    I think the real numbers are 32-14-4
    We've got reasonably good data, and it isnt even close to that high:

    https://cyberpost.co/warcraft/only-1...pate-in-raids/
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I always respond to this with "Ok, then the final mythic boss shouldn't drop gear".
    2 Raid tiers: Normal/Heroic. Gear caps out with Normal in terms of power. Heroic is additional gear currency and cosmetics. Boom. Fixed the power gap problem.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I'm not disagreeing. Hell we have evidence to support this. Back in Cata when the dungeons and raids first came out everyone cried about how hard it was (after a ton of crying about how easy it was in Wrath) and Ghostcrawler made his Get good post. People basically went "fuck this" and left in numbers that would have been WoD level if the additions to LFR and Ghostcrawler apology didn't happen.
    How badly they learnt the wrong lesson from that is breathtaking.

    The problem was they made difficult content easily queue-able by people who were under geared for it.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I'm not disagreeing. Hell we have evidence to support this. Back in Cata when the dungeons and raids first came out everyone cried about how hard it was (after a ton of crying about how easy it was in Wrath) and Ghostcrawler made his Get good post. People basically went "fuck this" and left in numbers that would have been WoD level if the additions to LFR and Ghostcrawler apology didn't happen.
    Part of the issue was Wrath was dogshit, face roll easy. Like you literally just ran straight to the end bosses and aoed shit as you were running.

    And Cata dungeons were completely different and required CC, etc.

    I liked it, but it's like going from hello kitty island to dark souls. It was a different game.

    The Cata dungeons and overall vibe of the expansion weren't good either. Everything felt half baked and bland, which factors into people leaving.

    Not to mention its the first expansion to start with LFG, which killed server communities.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2022-01-05 at 08:36 PM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    Raiding has always been been their top priority since vanilla.

    I mean, pretty much all the new content added in vanilla was raid content.

    The game had gotten a bit more to do beside that since then, but raiding is still baby #1 to them.

    And it's not hard to see when you look at how dead and neglected the rest of the game (maybe less so M+) and the world is.
    Mara
    Dire Maul
    Three Battlegrounds (and the battleground system itself)
    Epic class quests
    Six world bosses

    And you think all they added was raids?
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #112
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Reps used to very regularly reward exceptional pieces of gear or tradeskill recipes to craft exceptional pieces of gear.
    so reps are no longer progressive because they don’t give gear even if they give something just as relevant to power progression like with the gem sockets on SL?



    Non-M+ dungeons are no longer a progression source.
    dungeons are still a progression source changing it from heroic to M+ Really doesn’t matter it’s just nit picking.


    No, this is like me saying "I like the tires on my old car so I'm going to swap them with my new car" and you keep insisting that because my new car is red and the old car is blue that my idea is crazy and can't be possible.
    I’m comparing the two cars as they are/were. Your pining over the old care and trying to come up with what it could be in a ideal world.



    It wouldn't require any new content be added. This is just a change in organization. The idea that it would be prohibitively expensive is just weird.
    it’s not at all a change in organizing you’d need hubs, new quest text, multiple areas with multiple sets of quest ect.

    At the moment I think any given area has 2/3 quest which isn’t even close to how many daily hubs gave normally.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-01-05 at 08:38 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Mara
    Dire Maul
    Three Battlegrounds (and the battleground system itself)
    Epic class quests
    Six world bosses

    And you think all they added was raids?
    "pretty much"

    miss that part?

    Also 6 world bosses = raiding

    Class quests = you really felt this was strong enough to add to the list?

  14. #114
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That's not the problem. The problem is when they make those activities mandatory for power. Allowing them to be power progression paths would be great, as long as they aren't mandatory.
    It doesn’t matter if they are actually mandatory or not people will treat them as they are making them a chore. If you can get High end power from easy content people will do that easy content none stop to get it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    You're probably not wrong about LFR which is why I always specify organized raiding when we talk about stuff like this. I like having LFR around but have never been convinced that it should be counted as raiding although I can understand why others disagree with this.
    Would be amazed if LFR participation is that high these days. Seem totally pointless since all that seems to drop is the Shards of Blahblahblah. I only do Sylvanas on my hunters to try get the quiver tmog. Done it since you could on my ally hunter and few weeks after on my horde and the only loot i have even seen is the shards. The few full runs i did had the same story. No actual loot 99% of the time just shards. I doubt many people go back. Even today when i think most people get it done the ally que was just over a hour and the horde one was 40 mins. Guess it could just be my realm but even on the weekends the wait times are insane.

  16. #116
    this opinion is simply factualy wrong,raiding has never been less important....back in vanila/tbc it was all that mattered for character progression,now you can get similar progression with m+,pvp and in legion even world quests could randomly give you mythic raiding ilvl

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    so reps are no longer progressive because they don’t give gear even if they give something just as relevant to power progression like with the gem sockets on SL?
    Reps used to often give BiS gear.

    dungeons are still a progression source changing it from heroic to M+ Really doesn’t matter it’s just nit picking.
    It matters because M+ is an entirely different gameplay mode based on challenge and scaling. It's not a casual gameplay mode. It's more comparable to raiding.

    I’m comparing the two cars as they are/were. Your pining over the old care and trying to come up with what it could be in a ideal world.
    it’s not at all a change in organizing you’d need hubs, new quest text, multiple areas with multiple sets of quest ect.

    At the moment I think any given area has 2/3 quest which isn’t even close to how many daily hubs gave normally.[/QUOTE]

    I didn't say to convert SL to this. I'm saying this is how they should design it going forward, and should have done it in the first place.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It doesn’t matter if they are actually mandatory or not people will treat them as they are making them a chore. If you can get High end power from easy content people will do that easy content none stop to get it.
    This is a trivial problem to solve in game design. It's amazing to me how wow-brain has made so many people think this is some unsolvable timeless mystery.

    1. Make all content give a currency that lets you upgrade gear.
    2. Make hard content reward tons of that currency.
    3. Give the currency a weekly cap.

    Problem solved.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    "pretty much"

    miss that part?

    Also 6 world bosses = raiding

    Class quests = you really felt this was strong enough to add to the list?
    The class quest chains were huge. Nothing like that ever happened again until legion, or did you whine that legion advertised class halls and artifacts and class quests are primary features?

    If you think the entire battleground system, more dungeons than any expansion ever added post-launch, etc. is just trivial content, I don't really know what to tell you except "grow up and learn to admit when you are wrong".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This is a trivial problem to solve in game design. It's amazing to me how wow-brain has made so many people think this is some unsolvable timeless mystery.

    1. Make all content give a currency that lets you upgrade gear.
    2. Make hard content reward tons of that currency.
    3. Give the currency a weekly cap.

    Problem solved.
    You forgot a step:

    4. Game dies because players with higher than room temperature IQ are not able to challenge themselves since the game has effectively been made fully wheelchair accessible.

  19. #119
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Reps used to often give BiS gear.
    So is it not progress unless its BIS? But even if you want to say yes they more or less still do as you can make a piece BIS with sockets and the like.


    It matters because M+ is an entirely different gameplay mode based on challenge and scaling. It's not a casual gameplay mode. It's more comparable to raiding.
    gonna have to fully reject this notion mythic plus isn’t comparable to raiding and you can progress it casually even if you might not hit the tippy top.




    I didn't say to convert SL to this. I'm saying this is how they should design it going forward, and should have done it in the first place.
    then it’s more time/money then what we have/had and I don’t think they’d invest in it.

    This is a trivial problem to solve in game design. It's amazing to me how wow-brain has made so many people think this is some unsolvable timeless mystery.

    1. Make all content give a currency that lets you upgrade gear.
    2. Make hard content reward tons of that currency.
    3. Give the currency a weekly cap.

    Problem solved.
    Mabye in a different game with a different fan base it’s a easy solution but something like this wouldn’t work with how people play wow, it would just be the maw of souls in legion all over again but with far more rage.

    Blizzard could do it of course but I don’t think they’d have the guts or if they tied they would give in to fan back lash and revert it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    Casual, by every sense of the word is, like I said, time commitment. There are many highly skilled casual players who defy the mindset that you lay out. It's why casual doesn't work when it correlates to skill. Yes, there is a causal relationship between time spent and player skill, but not everyone needs the same amount of time spent to reach a high level of skilled play. Anecdotally, there are non-WoW MMOs that I play casually, and that is to say, every so often whenever new content drops or I feel inclined to play it. My time spent in these other games is minimal, but as I play, I actively try to figure out how to get better and better. I'm a casual in those games, and I'm pushing the hardest content I can within that framework. So your casual mindset piece doesn't pan out.
    My problem with this is that time is only a tool used for measurement. So if time is your how you determine casual you need a to explain how it does that. It may not be a fixed amount of for all players but it needs to have some measurable quantity ie % of free time spent or time running actual content. Also skill has nothing to do with my proposal to how to define casual, the worst player in the world can be hardcore and the best can be casual.

    I'd also say if you are pushing yourself into doing things that aren't fun in order to to grow, you are not treating those other mmos with a casual mindset but actually a hardcore(if this is the word we want to use thats opposite of casual) one. A casual's only goal should be enjoyment of the game they are playing and for different players that will be different levels of content. But as soon as they start doing content they don't want to obtain a longer goal of growth its no longer casual play. I point back to my previous posts about 1 night a week mythic raiders and 10+ hour a week players that only herb and talk in trade chat. Assuming same irl schedules which of these play styles is hardcore or casual. I'm currently playing about 2.5 hours of wow a week but I'm full clearing mythic SoD while its on farm am I a casual?

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