M+ Needs a Queue

[Berndorf]

I just find it funny that people are arguing against a queue up tool for M+ as though they would be bound to use it. Its like arguing against allowing people to pug raids while already being in a raiding guild that you raid with. Its about giving people more options to form groups.

[Evolixe]

And how exactly do you know that?

Because I am part of that clique. And yes, some people do have more direct lines to blizzard than the audience at large. But unlike what you believe it isn't all some conspiracy to make the game worse for "casual" players. The things they talk about in those channels are about the games intricacies like how some spells are behaving, how much damage they do from one pull to the next and all that technical mumbo jumbo. It isn't about how many grinds there should be in the game or anything like that.

This isn't about competition. See this is where this all falls apart because in your head we're competing. I don't really compete in co-op games. I actively avoid games now that have competition because my real life job has enough competition in it. The problem we're talking about here is how one group of players consistently has content developed for them then the rest of the game is built around that content. That's an issue.

And I agree. But the solution to that issue is not to make less content. The solution would be to make content that satisfies the audience that doesn't interact with the current features of the game and the expansion.

Yep and I remember what happened when Torg first launched. The solo activity not tied to player power? Oh ya Ion launched it saying you needed gear to complete wing 8. Bruh. These are the inclinations of a player (speaking of Ion) who designs a game he wants to play and be from and it's very painfully obvious that when activision reminds him of the larger market he comes up with some weak system and then forces Mythic raiders to do it because he has to make it because Activision is asking why are you losing casual players and Ion goes I don't know it's a skill issue!

We don't like a lot of Ions ideas either. And torghast not the least of all.

[Kokolums]

I believe players resolved this by creating a discord to find people to run m+ Instead of using in-game tools. The advantage is that it is an extra step. Idiots are much less likely to have the social skills and wherewithal to find the discord, and filtering tools are more robust. So, you get a higher quality team. The downside is that its not an in-game community which is an issue that rots the entire game out from within.

[chorx]

Absolutely not. I'm not going to carry subpar players that I get put with through a que. No. You'll be vetted beforehand and won't get an invite if you aren't up to snuff. Don't like it? Make your own group.

Nobody is telling you to take advantage of the queue system and nobody is asking for the group finder to be replaced. All you’re doing — actually, is giving casuals more room to work with without interacting with people like you, to be blunt.

[Sucralose]

Maybe you could for mythic 0? Even that sounds unpleasant

[Miffinat0r]

Because I am part of that clique. And yes, some people do have more direct lines to blizzard than the audience at large. But unlike what you believe it isn't all some conspiracy to make the game worse for "casual" players. The things they talk about in those channels are about the games intricacies like how some spells are behaving, how much damage they do from one pull to the next and all that technical mumbo jumbo. It isn't about how many grinds there should be in the game or anything like that.

I used to work in politics, thats a lot of learning on human realtionships. I know it's not a conspiracy of malicious intent. It's rarely, ever that at all. However in politics much like here there are competing interests. The interests of Mythic level raiders are not the same interest as the population as a whole. Who's more likely to have their concerns addressed? The people who you talk to regularly, or the masses with whom you have no connection? That's the issue. It access and who can discuss things across the table. Casual players don't have that same seat.

And I agree. But the solution to that issue is not to make less content. The solution would be to make content that satisfies the audience that doesn't interact with the current features of the game and the expansion.

And if we go into what I originally opted for which is a queue that's adding something and not reducing anything. The fear I get from a lot of you is now bads will be carried but again ya'll said you ain't using it so what's the harm? I think truthfully it's 2 things:

1: People are afraid their gameplay right now will change because there's no control over their groups.
2: This could open the door to more players, which would reduce the perceived "value" of their achievements

We don't like a lot of Ions ideas either. And torghast not the least of all.

I'm aware of this, but at the end of the day who's Ion more likely to talk to about WoW? A mythic raider or a causal player? That's the problem because we know the answer.

[Evolixe]

ITT: The key system is social! No we need this because it's a social game!

Also ITT: Bads, I don't want to carry people, I want to vet people beforehand because I don't want to play with bads!


Remind me again how this is social? Seems exclusionary.

Everyone has problems with this. Which is why people have advocated for other ways of connecting with people in the game before.
The truth of the matter is that nobody wants to play with people that are a burden for them to play with. Thats natural.
Because it slows you down or hinders you from progressing in a manner or tempo that would otherwise be fine for you.

At the same time there are people that try to take advantage of others and advertise themselves to be more capable than they really are.
That happens both in good (I really believe I'm better than I really am) and in bad (I know im not that good but im gonna say I am anyway to get a spot) faith.

And people have grown very very weary over the years. I'm outdpsing fully geared characters in 250 itemlevel on a 223 alt with no enchants and half a domination setbonus. But the truth is that I'm a far and few between exception to the rule so when I apply to heroic raids with that character I often get declined without any second guessing. Even with a 10/10 on my rio page and all that jazz.


That is a problem of the playerbase that blizzard just can't fix. People need to stop being dishonest about their abilities (gl with that) and maybe we need to devise new ways of connecting people with oneanother. But again system automation really doesn't help with any of this at all. How many people in the Groupfinder or LFR do you really end up as friends with? Because I can't remember the last one if there was ever any.

[LanToaster]

Typically if you're 25+ you're running in a premade group or you have a pool of players you know who do that. You even go on to admit that. Not sure how a queue would harm you. Largely this problem of group finding exists for players who are in M2-10 usually.

If you keep the Ability of making PreMade groups for the Content, you run into the Problem that you still wont find groups for Keys higher than 8/10, because People who can Manage them, wont be using the GroupFinder.

Because this is kinda the breaking Point for alot of Players. Sure, you would probably get an Influx of players who want to participate in M+ dungeons. But on the same time you get a mass of Players who want to play far above what they are capable off.

There will always people Boosting others, be it Paid or just helping a Friend. That means the way you would determine the Level a player is able to Queue up is already flawed from the beginning.

The system probably wont Harm people running Higher Keys, because as you said Premade Groups. On the Other hand, i´m inclined to think it will harm the players you want the feature to Help. Because an Automated system for harder content, will most likely lead to alot more "Failed" runs, which in turn creates alot more negativity. Especially in these Groups.

As an Example, while LFR is alot easier than Normal or Heroic raiding. I´ve seen alot more Toxicity in LFR groups than in Normal or Heroic Groups.
The Idea of beeing able to "Just press a Button, and get a Group", somehow brings out the worst in some people.

[Garymorilix]

You're not even willing to put the time in to do keys yourself.
What should indicate to me that if a queue system were put in you wouldn't just leave at the slightest inconvenience because "oh, I'm a casual I don't wanna do skips and interrupt, bye".

M+ is not designed to be casual content. The exact opposite.

If you don't do M+ now (even just one 15 weekly) then you simply don't need to anyways because you wouldn't use the dropped gear for anything other than... standing around I guess?

Also, why would you want to just NOT be able to choose who you wanna play with in a content where choosing the right teammates are the core of the run?
Totally rando team comps is not what M+ is built around. You need some CC, some skip, some burst, some AoE, some this some that.
Nah, fuck that, you don't want to do the bare minimum of queueing up (not even talking cuz almost nobody talks) but somehow you want to push for higher keys?
Alrite fam.

[NineSpine]

Yeah right here

You think that you are only allowed to form a 5 man in wow if you have a M+ key?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

There should be severe consequences when you leave someone's key if something like that were to exist - even if it means you d/c'd. Like you can only queue for ToP for the rest of the week or you have to run with a full group of feral druids or you queue with other leavers.

That will never fly though.

[Evolixe]

I used to work in politics, thats a lot of learning on human realtionships. I know it's not a conspiracy of malicious intent. It's rarely, ever that at all. However in politics much like here there are competing interests. The interests of Mythic level raiders are not the same interest as the population as a whole. Who's more likely to have their concerns addressed? The people who you talk to regularly, or the masses with whom you have no connection? That's the issue. It access and who can discuss things across the table. Casual players don't have that same seat.

You just got it with the community council though. It has yet to prove itself but they're trying /shrug

And if we go into what I originally opted for which is a queue that's adding something and not reducing anything. The fear I get from a lot of you is now bads will be carried but again ya'll said you ain't using it so what's the harm? I think truthfully it's 2 things:

1: People are afraid their gameplay right now will change because there's no control over their groups.
2: This could open the door to more players, which would reduce the perceived "value" of their achievements

There isn't any harm as long as the system is an addition and not a replacement like you said multiple times it would be. (and then came back on it to clarify it wasnt)

I'm aware of this, but at the end of the day who's Ion more likely to talk to about WoW? A mythic raider or a causal player? That's the problem because we know the answer.

They aren't more likely to talk to the one or the other. There's just so many more "casual" players that the likelyness of you talking to a dev compared to a high level mythic raider is many times smaller. That should be to nobodies surprise. But its not like every mythic raider has a direct line to blizzard either. Thats really only the MDI/RWF/AWC people. Because that is a natural happenstance of playing at the top level in those tournaments.

When you'd look at blizzards internal communications however you seem to believe that the only thing that plays in blizzard HQ is how CE raiders think about the game. And I can assure you that is definitely not the case.

You think that you are only allowed to form a 5 man in wow if you have a M+ key?

No but thats what the argument was about.. sigh

[Alroxas]

Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen.

Plenty of logical reasons from composition to utility to DPS profiles. Just because you don't know them or don't agree with them doesn't mean they don't exist.

I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

Technically speaking all specs/classes are viable but in general there are some factors that help contribute to M+ success.

Here's an example: Most (if not all) classes/specs have an interrupt or some way to interrupt a spell cast. YET they all have different amount of cooldown times. Melee are favored with shorter interrupt cooldowns but require melee range while ranged interrupts (including AoE interrupt) often have longer cooldowns.

This is balanced because ranged players don't have nearly the same constrictive melee requirements to interrupt. However a group comprised of only melee interrupters or only ranged suffers whereas a mix of both is better.

Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically.

You do realize that LFD/LFR systems are incredibly limited in their ability to put players together right? Basically those systems just look and see if there are X tanks, Y healers and Z DPS to be put into a group.

Moreover, what if it's not a comp issue but rather a communication issue? What if through a queued M+ you are placed with a party of folks who don't natively speak/type your language? How much fun would it be when you can't tell your tank that you need to drink for mana? Or that the rest of the group is going to invis this next pack but you didn't understand them so you body pulled the pack instead?

Or let's step further back, how would you fit the different priorities of players in a queue system? Bob only cares about completing the dungeon regardless of timing it but Dan over there is only interested in making the timer. Is the queue system going to allow players to insert their goals?

[Miffinat0r]

You're not even willing to put the time in to do keys yourself.
What should indicate to me that if a queue system were put in you wouldn't just leave at the slightest inconvenience because "oh, I'm a casual I don't wanna do skips and interrupt, bye".

Seems to be a hypothetical you're worried about, when you even make it clear you wouldn't be using it. Sooo why does this impact you?

M+ is not designed to be casual content. The exact opposite.

If it's not casual content; then where is casual content that allows people to keep progressing if they're not doing grouped content? There is none, and that's the whole central theme of this game. So again I ask why is it okay to lose a few million casual players, but the second mythic players threaten to stop the presses!

If you don't do M+ now (even just one 15 weekly) then you simply don't need to anyways because you wouldn't use the dropped gear for anything other than... standing around I guess?

The need for gear is irrelevant. Needs aren't applicable anything you do in-game by definition is not a need, it's a want, just like this is a want. The difference here is I'm advocating for an avenue of more inclusivity and from this thread so far the only demonstrable point I can see is ya'll want exclusivity.

Also, why would you want to just NOT be able to choose who you wanna play with in a content where choosing the right teammates are the core of the run?
Totally rando team comps is not what M+ is built around. You need some CC, some skip, some burst, some AoE, some this some that.
Nah, fuck that, you don't want to do the bare minimum of queueing up (not even talking cuz almost nobody talks) but somehow you want to push for higher keys?
Alrite fam.

When I play MP games today I don't pick my team. I let the MM pick my team. Why? It's easy I can play for 2 hours on my time and move on. This other way is designed around the idea there's a community, and hate to say this what killed the WoW community? Facebook, Twitter, and Snapchat. Social media killed it because MMORPGs used to be a unique game experience, but now technology has moved past that point and the market has moved past it as well.

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There should be severe consequences when you leave someone's key if something like that were to exist - even if it means you d/c'd. Like you can only queue for ToP for the rest of the week or you have to run with a full group of feral druids or you queue with other leavers.

Leavers could get a leaver pentalty because all the queued content to my knowledge has this feature.

[Alroxas]

The key system is a very very bad idea and it's built toward abuse of players on players.

How so? We've had M+ now for like 3 expansions (Legion, BFA, and SL) and it seems fine. Especially for the original intended audience of small groups of players who know each other (i.e. friends, guildmates, etc).

The only issues that do stem from player quitting are from PuGs. And since this is player organized content that responsibility (of pick good players) falls on the party/group leader in making good choices.

[Zoibert the Bear]

ITT: The key system is social! No we need this because it's a social game!

Also ITT: Bads, I don't want to carry people, I want to vet people beforehand because I don't want to play with bads!


Remind me again how this is social? Seems exclusionary.

They are not mutually exclusive, are you literally a communist? It sounds like you are actively looking for others to carry you. Maybe this gamemode is just not for you.

[Miffinat0r]

They are not mutually exclusive, are you literally a communist? It sounds like you are actively looking for others to carry you. Maybe this gamemode is just not for you.

In real life with scarcity? I'm very much a captialist.

In a virtual world where resources are infinite--communist.

But this isn't about being carried. It's about having a play and go feature at end game that lets you build your gear up just like everyone else without having to meet the approval of someone else. Pretty straightforward. Literally every other game has adopted this, and WoW is losing casual players; but no, you're right, everything is fine. In fact If I had to guess, we should make the game harder and more exclusive because that'll add players I mean Dark Souls is the most perfect game ever, right?

[Garymorilix]

Seems to be a hypothetical you're worried about, when you even make it clear you wouldn't be using it. Sooo why does this impact you?



If it's not casual content; then where is casual content that allows people to keep progressing if they're not doing grouped content? There is none, and that's the whole central theme of this game. So again I ask why is it okay to lose a few million casual players, but the second mythic players threaten to stop the presses!



The need for gear is irrelevant. Needs aren't applicable anything you do in-game by definition is not a need, it's a want, just like this is a want. The difference here is I'm advocating for an avenue of more inclusivity and from this thread so far the only demonstrable point I can see is ya'll want exclusivity.



When I play MP games today I don't pick my team. I let the MM pick my team. Why? It's easy I can play for 2 hours on my time and move on. This other way is designed around the idea there's a community, and hate to say this what killed the WoW community? Facebook, Twitter, and Snapchat. Social media killed it because MMORPGs used to be a unique game experience, but now technology has moved past that point and the market has moved past it as well.

- - - Updated - - -



Leavers could get a leaver pentalty because all the queued content to my knowledge has this feature.

How is it a hypothetical?
If you would do it, because lets face it you would, then others would too. Then many people would be fucked by casuals who refuse to actually play the game the way its meant to. Then why even involve them in the first place? Yea, you don't.

But... M+... is... grouped content? What? Did you miss how dungeons work?
And the queue versions of the dungeons (normal/heroic) and the raid (lfr) is meant to be the ultra casual content. That's why it has queues.
M0 or normal raiding is not much harder at all but casuals already don't engage with those.
What makes you think that a casual player who can't even press a rotation correctly would be inclined to even put aside aprox 40minutes to do M2-M10 in the first place?
They wouldn't because they don't now.

The need for gear is the most basic power-curve this game has.
You get gear to do harder content. That's the only reason to get gear. There is no other FUNCTION attached to gear in the first place.
Increase dps, healing, survivability to do HARDER THINGS. That's why people don't do Mythic raiding in heirlooms. That's why we have an option in the group finder to limit the minimum ilvl of players we want to play with. To do harder shit.
Fuck your inclusivity bs mate, your target audience is literally unwilling and incapable to be included in this type of content. Even heroic raiders are mostly incapable of doing +15 dungeons right.

Okay, so what does any of this have to do with anything?
In WoW you do pick your team (or get picked by another actual player). There is nothing to argue here.
In fact, I would be more than happy to have the grouping system we have in WoW in LoL to save myself from the headache of being matched with braindead inters.
Social media has nothing to do with this conversation. It's not about community.
It's about having a CR, a BL, 1-2 ranged, good interrupts and CC, good cooldown synergy and class buffs etc. What would a queueing system do? Group you with 3 shadow priests and good luck? Alright.

[Alroxas]

People say this won't work, but what are you doing now, other than doing this manually? You don't know those randoms.

Correct, in PuG scenario we don't know the randoms but some inferences can be made based on their history and M+ score. For instance, someone with a 2k+ score with over 50+ M+15 keys done in time, I would say has a good chance of doing a +15. They know the dungeon and its mechanics plus has enough history that it's unlikely that they got boosted (so knowledge and skill are both there).

And with no timer, you can use CC if you've bitten off more than you can chew.

First that's a slippery slope. As with no timer, CC usage becomes waiting for personal DPS CD to come back to the extreme of waiting for exhaustion to fall off.

Second, no amount of CC will help for a group that can't overcome the DPS requirements for a boss. Especially on Tyrannical weeks.

[Moggers1990]

I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.

Literally the worst idea I've seen in a while.

M+ isn't the reason the game is "bleeding players". If anything, running M+ with friends/guildies is one of the only things keeping some people in the game. Making it just a "queue and forget" thing like Heroic dungeons is just horrible and will ruin the ENTIRE system. And yes, the system works. The key system is not bad nor the issue.

Just sounds like you don't have anyone to run M+ with, and you're tilted by queueing for ages and just getting declined. It's not the system that's the problem, YOU'RE the problem, just because you don't have the time anymore, or want to actually put the effort into the game.

I know plenty of people who just PUG their own keys, have gotten all +20's completed and made numerous friends along the way. That's the whole point of an MMO. As someone said before, we need more social interaction within this game. It's not an MMO anymore (or close to not being one). If you want a game where you can just queue up and play without interacting with anyone then go play something like League or any number of the alternatives.