M+ Needs a Queue

[azka]

I said it. When I was playing WoW I first experienced M+ when I joined a M0. Didn't think it was that bad but then once I got up around 8-10 I noticed finding groups became painful. Bare in mind I was a frost mage and at the start of 9.0 after pre-launch nerfs Frost Mages were dookie. Fire wasn't but man I really really hate twitchy gameplay.

Being honest here--there's no good logical reason from my perspective as to why this doesn't happen. I know people will all say comp comp comp--my response is that the burden of responsibility for balancing the game so that all specs, and all classes are viable with one another is a dev issue, and any deviation from that statement is you as a paying customer being okay with a subpar product.

Hire some actuaries to balance your numbers and let players connect with one another automatically. The insistence on Premade grouping is so dated and not helpful to anyone.

All classes are viable for a +10. A queue won't solve anything. People will leave groups just as they do now or even more.

[Berndorf]

I've been playing blizzard games since the late 1990s. All I ever see on forums is an endless stream of people coming in and asking for god mode to one shot everything. They either ask for it directly, or hide it in some sort of plea to nerf everything. So yeah, I expect the worst.

I've been playing them since the 90's also going back to D1. Expecting the worst is your own choice but I don't think adding an automated grouping tool is the end of the world. I think a lot of people would use it and be fine with it. It would be for people who just want to complete an m+ for the week without having to stress out about their dungeon score or having the right spec to get an invite or people to join their group.

[Miffinat0r]

I've been playing them since the 90's also going back to D1. Expecting the worst is your own choice but I don't think adding an automated grouping tool is the end of the world. I think a lot of people would use it and be fine with it. It would be for people who just want to complete an m+ for the week without having to stress out about their dungeon score or having the right spec to get an invite or people to join their group.

This is pretty much it. It's about trying to figure out how to attract casual players back. Which honestly I've yet to see any solutions given from a lot of players. It's always more of the same--which is just it's not a big deal they left. But the second mythic raiders threaten to leave---STOP EVERYTHING WE CANNOT LOSE OUR MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS! I'm literally laughing at the lack of imagination here.

[NineSpine]

This is pretty much it. It's about trying to figure out how to attract casual players back. Which honestly I've yet to see any solutions given from a lot of players. It's always more of the same--which is just it's not a big deal they left. But the second mythic raiders threaten to leave---STOP EVERYTHING WE CANNOT LOSE OUR MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS! I'm literally laughing at the lack of imagination here.

Their entire self-worth is wrapped up on accomplishments in a game with talking cow ladies in it. You can't reach them. They actually think they are important and valuable. They think they are pro athletes. They actually think we should be thanking them for playing the game.

[Miffinat0r]

Their entire self-worth is wrapped up on accomplishments in a game with talking cow ladies in it. You can't reach them. They actually think they are important and valuable. They think they are pro athletes. They actually think we should be thanking them for playing the game.

Literally if you go back in the thread you can see people worship these players for some reason. I'm sitting here going, why? All I'm asking for is a play and go feature that lets me continually build gear for my character. It's like there's some kind of sacred cow, and this is why I'm posting these threads because it exposes how people think about others. So far the only takeaway I have is people want to exclude people because they think they're more valuable, and don't want to be associated with others.

Furthermore I want to stress this; My brother-in-law is a Actuary. I told him about this, that dude literally balances predictive models based on over 10K lives and tries to tie the chances of getting sick based on age, zip, and what not. I mentioned there's 36 specs and his response was: Any actuarial assistant could do that in a day or two. The math isn't the issue; it's the will.

[NineSpine]

Literally if you go back in the thread you can see people worship these players for some reason. I'm sitting here going, why? All I'm asking for is a play and go feature that lets me continually build gear for my character. It's like there's some kind of sacred cow, and this is why I'm posting these threads because it exposes how people think about others. So far the only takeaway I have is people want to exclude people because they think they're more valuable, and don't want to be associated with others.

They've invented this whole mythology where the entire game relies on mythic raiders and without them the whole thing comes crashing down. It's really funny to anyone who has played other MMOs in particular, because the idea is laughable when no other game relies on this egomaniac freak show to stay alive. They could delete mythic tier entirely tomorrow and the impact on the game would be negligible.

[hollafame]

Oh boy, I'd like for you to go read the numerous threads on why that's a bad idea.

Short version: Leaving by not really leaving but forcing someone else to leave first to get that "consequence".

Can be as simple as being passive = no longer attacking/tanking/healing but still moving around to prevent AFK timer to remove you.

Can be as "evil" as being "sloppy" = body pulling extra packs, pulling aggro on boss before everyone is ready, "purposely" screwing up mechanics, etc.

Sorry I was being facetious, I thought the part about running with nothing but feral druids made it apparent.

[czarek]

Oh yes we do need more toxic behavior lol. I see qqing about trolls that they dooming run or tons od leavers. With actual grp making like there is none just pick random 3dps tank n heal wouldnt work well. Rating system and leaving counter maybe yes.

[Ssateneth]

Yea...if you're a tank or healer lol.

bruh. its an mmo. go make some friends and find a set of friends that you can spam m+ with. be social. its not a single player game. get over it

[Sucralose]

So go play those other games then.

Isn't how class war works. It isn't that they want mythic destroyed it is that they want to be the mythic raiders or what they perceive being a mythic raider is like.

[MoanaLisa]

The key system is a very very bad idea and it's built toward abuse of players on players.

I'm agnostic about keys but whether or not the key system is a bad idea this is worse. I suppose it would have to be implemented to demonstrate how bad it would be but the multiple range of difficulties available would make the system extremely messy. I don't see how it's even workable. Saying "technology" and "they could figure it out" is tantamount to admitting that there is no apparent solution for this.

Besides, automated matchmaking for difficult content is not a tenable thing.

As always, the easiest most direct solution is to start your own group and find the sweet spot where you can easily admit people to a group that a lot of people would want to sign up for. Alternately, be in a guild or start up/find a community of like-minded people that you could trust a bit.

[Etoo]

Anything up to about +5 should be queueable, with a dependence on gear/rating/M+ key in your bags (ie, if they have a +6 key but don't meet the ilevel for some reason, they can still queue). Beyond +5 would still require making a custom group.

Or maybe keep the difficulty for everything up to +5, but get rid of the timers until +6.

If anything, though, we'll likely only get a queue for M0, at the most.

[Miffinat0r]

I have not had one single leaver or troll in a run during the entirety of SL season 2. I know they do exist but theyre really not common at all and just an easy excuse for hardcore casuals to bring up as to why they should be able to watch Netflix while pushing a 23.

Majority of people here aren't talking about 20+ here. The only people worried about that have demonstrated they would not use it. So what's the foul there?

It's like you have this idea that the exclusivity keeps players, but it actually drives players away.

[Alroxas]

Rating system and leaving counter maybe yes.

We already have a rating system in terms of r.io and M+ score. But if you mean players grading other players, no that's a bad idea. Just look at the various review scandals on other websites. Or how about those instances of review bombing that we've seen on e-commerce stores?

Also a leave counter (like other punishment systems) just encourages degenerate behavior. As mentioned in other threads, all this would do is make it so that instead of leaving (as folks do now anyway for whatever reason), players would just passively (or actively) sabotage the group until someone else leaves. As the leave counter would go on them (the leaver) instead of the player who wanted to leave in the first place.

Think about the various ways players would attempt to get around this: From just standing at the entrance and shuffling enough to prevent AFK timer to body pulling other packs, standing in fire, not doing mechanics, getting killed over and over while over pulling, etc.

[mizeri]

i'd be ok with normal mythics to have LFD feature after you get to certain ilvl

[Alroxas]

So what's the foul there?

It's like you have this idea that the exclusivity keeps players, but it actually drives players away.

The foul is that the idea is bad period. There's no positive upside when you compare an automated grouping system to letting players decide their own groups especially in content that is "challenging".

By your logic we should have a queue system for Normal, Heroic and Mythic raids (once CRZ is available) yet we don't.

Again it's not exclusivity but rather players want to play with other players at or above their skill/knowledge level. Nobody really wants to play with players who are less skilled and/or less knowledgeable. Especially when we're looking at PuGs, there's so many unknowns variables about the other players that the quick and reliable information about a player's skill and knowledge is their history of successfully completed dungeons in time and frequency of those dungeons.

[Miffinat0r]

I dont care that it drives them away? I said that earlier. I think a smaller playerbase is healthier for the game.

WoW is the hardcore end game content mmo. FFXIV is the storyline MMO. ESO is the immersive world MMO. Etc. Etc.

Blizzard bowing over for the massively overpopulated community in the past is why the design is so bi-polar. Because it is impossible to please a playerbase of that size. The only reason it managed to get to 12m in WotLK/Cata era was because there was no real competition or alternative approaches to content and world design. We have that now. Which means WoW should focus in on its niche instead of making dumb design choices to please some mythical casual player that doesnt actually exist.

Same thing as people that try and claim 95% of the playerbase doesnt just google something like "BM hunter best covenant" and go with that. The playerbase as a whole has proven time and again that it wants high end content to aspire to. It doesnt want XIV style scaling of content.

I mean I'll give ya credit at least you're saying you want a smaller playerbase. Which to me tells me you're talking about this in good faith. While I may disagree that's all there is to us on this point.

I think a queue would be good for the game as it would increase more players entry into endgame and could potentially keep them.

I'll end with this; If Ion came out tomorrow and said this is what the devs wanted, I think I'd drop it and move on. But right now they're not they keep trying to do this dance and not comitting.

[Deadite]

I push 20s and I dont even have a guild. M+ is beyond puggable. Its the same thing with LFR vs Norm in that because of the queue LFR attracts the degens and is harder than Normal as a result.

Confused as to why you would care how bad people are in a system you would never use. I say make everything queueable. The old 'if you don't like then make your own groups' works both ways.

[Miffinat0r]

Confused as to why you would care how bad people are in a system you would never use. I say make everything queueable. The old 'if you don't like then make your own groups' works both ways.

The fear is they're worried about nerfs I think.

All the other arguments are basically hero worship and basic human nature around scarcity.

[Deadite]

Because I dont see why they should change a core piece of content to appease people that can easily get the fix theyre asking for in a different MMO. Theyve done that over and over and destroyed what makes WoW unique in the genre as a result.

Like Cata Heroic dungeons being completely neutered because they didnt just stick to their guns.

It is more like adding to a core piece of content. They could cap it at +15 or something. I guess the more accessible all content is the better imho.