Poll: Steve Danuser's writing in & for WoW?

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  1. #401
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    You're missing the point; we all know they work in two expansions at the same time, so they knew what they were going to do with Sylvanas next expansion. Two different teams might have different characterizations that might lead to some oddness in portrayal, but the level of disconnect here is incredible to the point it comes across as self sabotage.
    i think by now we already know that is just a myth/lie from the devs, at least, not the way you are thinking.

    They have the overall aproach and theme of the expansion, what happens there isn't set in stone and things change all the time between patches and even the end can change. Like characters whow ere not supposed to be relevant or appear at all became relevant because the fans liked.

    Sylvanas portrayal was straight up something changed for the expansionw, and it was adapted to fit it, the proff is how she was build with a common sense of continuinty since wtlk, including the books that pre-date shadowlands, but then, it was everything changed.

    It's way too easy to just blame Danuser when it was BfA the one that hard left with Sylvanas, who up until Legion had that big question mark. That's the huge red flag with BfA, it removed all the nuance necessary to carry Sylvanas from Legion to Shadowlands, cause, again, by BfA they already knew what the next expansion the other team was working on.
    Legion had all the necessary "nuances" to show why Sylvanus went full loco in BfA, she fucked up her deal with heylia, her valkyrs were dying out, she wanted power and to conquer easter kingdoms, she even said she aimed for stormwind, conquering the humans and bend then to her as shields against mortality made 100% sense with the character, and tacking account how undeads can go wild like that.

    The problem isn't that BfA made her a villain, the problem is that BfA made her a villain without consideration of the story the next expansion was going to tell.

    Or, you know, the most logical thing, it was how things were uspposed to be, she being villain and still being a villain in shadowlands, and someone else take the spot of protagonist, like bolvar, the players, or anything else, but Danuser assumed and decided to gave a enw direction to Sylvanus, cause her portray right now goes against the entire trajectory of the character, from cataclysm to Legion, enven if you excluse BfA anyway.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Exactly. Once again, the crux of the issue is BfA's portrayal of her that used her as a plot device for Saurfang's arc, without caring about any prior set up, nor worrying about the next expansion that was SO heavily tied to Sylvanas.

    It was just such a dumb decision, they kneecapped any resonance Shadowlands might have, and it's hard to see it as anything but sabotage, because how the hell do you make ostensibly the *protagonist* of your next expansion so unlikeable in the current one? That's just hating the guy that has to write that, and as much as I don't like certain aspects of Danuser's writing, the guy got such a raw deal.

    Doesn't make me like his penchant of going all in on the cosmic stuff any more in any case, but yeah, it's the difference between being perceived as "flawed" and "unsalvageable".

    And to make it clear, this is not about being against Sylvanas being made evil, a villain turn would have been fine, but it is SO damn evident that wasn't the intention of Shadowlands, so whomever wrote her arc on BfA didn't care one single bit about any repercussions.
    Afrasiabi wanted to turn Sylvanas into Satan to get back at Kosak and he succeeded. Danuser went the other direction with it, but he was still stuck with the BFA continuity and his direction also wasn't very good to begin with. Legion's cinematic wherein Sylvanas takes over was not framed as a villainous beat and the way SL frames it follows up far more from that version of Sylvanas. However in between Legion and SL there was a whole other expansion where she wasn't a character at all, and even if Danuser was an exponentially better writer than he was, he would not be able to wrap it up.

    Neither what he was left with nor the reduced expansion runtime that squeezed the story he meant to tell to its bare bones are his fault. The fact that his story was ill-considered in the first place was, as are the failures of storytelling, like hinging his entire Sylvanas plot on two equally as unstable pillars. The first being a villain he'd not even visually settled on before the expansion was out, let alone having any clear personality or even archetype to follow and then tying Sylvanas' decision retroactively to him, the second is hinging Sylvanas' interiority on an iteration of the character none but he care about, that being herself as Ranger-General.

    @Syegfryed

    BFA and BTS were not made in common continuity with previous appearances by Sylvanas. They turned the character into a caricature to service Sadfang's story, among others, and wrecked the entire Forsaken race to do so in the case of BTS and the whole of the Horde faction in the case of BFA. SL's error isn't in making Sylvanas a character again after she was a plot device to service other wastes of space, it's that that character turn was poorly executed and doomed to failure by default.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  3. #403
    Danuser needs to repair all the damage done by the one sided alliance bias from Afrasiabi. No Horde player has fun anymore of the game because the alliane is the favored faction.

  4. #404
    They did completely cut warlords of draenor midway through, end of bfa and now at least a patch of shadowlands. Writing the story without knowing that cant be easy and Danuser clearly has not been the man for the job to fix that. Not saying the story would have made sense for sure without those things happening but i do feel like pandaria and legion did make more sense.

    Now we're at a point where something close to a clean slate needs to happen if i'd ever give a single shit about the lore anymore. The previous expansion events jumpstarting the next one like they've been doing would suck so much when shadowlands story has been what it's been.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    Yes. Everything including the Antorus end cinematic to now has been shit. Sargeras had no reason to NOT be killed.
    Actually 7.0 work was really good, and then it just went down hill, 7.1 seemed a bit off.. but okay, it finished a storyline, but then it kept getting more disconnected and less intuitiive. I wonder where were the order of Elune at their very capital temple, just after Tyrande had declared her goddesses lands and temples were more important than her husband's life.


    I later found out, they cut a full Tyrande arc and replaced it with the order halls, when a more diligent operative would have woven in the Order of Elune to enlist the order halls.
    I also found out they re-wrote the entire broken shore because the initial design, complete with ruins and the works looked too elven, and not legion enough.

    Well given how legion ended up, we had more than enough of legion and very little of night elven, that seemed forgotten past the opening scene

    Total disconnect.. and the night elves ofc who have lived 10,000 years constantly on watch for this legion, all their lives disrupted by it, for so long, everything changed, play little to no role in it's downfall.. only Illidan.

    the orcs, also greatly corrupted by said legion, now free, don't even get up.

    Tbh, we should have seen Draenei, Night elves, Orcs and Illidari as the main groups facing up the legion in the final push... but that's my opinion. I was disappointed that the changes they made weren't done with the attention to detail to make them work..so they feel disjointed to anyone who thinks.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Even Tolstoy would throw his hands up in disbelief, give Anduin an axe and have him kill Sylvanas, then have him turn himself in to the police.
    And to think we had posters trying to claim no one here knows good writing, nope, we're all just sheep following a streamer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Danuser needs to repair all the damage done by the one sided alliance bias from Afrasiabi. No Horde player has fun anymore of the game because the alliane is the favored faction.
    That must be why every single measurement of game participation like the Hall of Fame or WoWprogress is so packed full of Alliance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    And to think we had posters trying to claim no one here knows good writing, nope, we're all just sheep following a streamer.

    "Nathanos took a ride home in a carriage with Sylvanas, with the carriage running a farmer over near Hillsbrad. The man died right then and there. Nathanos paid for the civilian's funeral with 200 gold and Sylvanas fell in love with him ever since."

    Danuser - probably
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2022-01-07 at 05:09 PM.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    "Nathanos took a ride home in a carriage with Sylvanas, with the carriage running a farmer over near Hillsbrad. The man died right then and there. Nathanos paid for the civilian's funeral with 200 gold and Sylvanas fell in love with him ever since."

    Danuser - probably
    And everyone clapped

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Danuser needs to repair all the damage done by the one sided alliance bias from Afrasiabi. No Horde player has fun anymore of the game because the alliane is the favored faction.
    As someone who started as a Horde player, what ruined the faction for me was the use of the Horde as a "bin" for groups of people or races they can't find a fitting place for. This lead to the errosion of the Horde as we knew it from Warcraft III. In the end, these appendages ended up running the show.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Afrasiabi wanted to turn Sylvanas into Satan to get back at Kosak and he succeeded.
    can i get some cotext there i'm intrigued

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    As someone who started as a Horde player, what ruined the faction for me was the use of the Horde as a "bin" for groups of people or races they can't find a fitting place for. This lead to the errosion of the Horde as we knew it from Warcraft III. In the end, these appendages ended up running the show.
    Rare based take.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    And to think we had posters trying to claim no one here knows good writing, nope, we're all just sheep following a streamer.

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    That must be why every single measurement of game participation like the Hall of Fame or WoWprogress is so packed full of Alliance.
    Allianc ebias controls this game. Due to people like Golden and Afrasiabi. That ruins the lore and kills all the fun for Horde players. And admins like AUclad manifest that even harder with their one sided ban strategy of people who like the Horde and don't fall on their knees whenever the alliance flexess their muscle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    As someone who started as a Horde player, what ruined the faction for me was the use of the Horde as a "bin" for groups of people or races they can't find a fitting place for. This lead to the errosion of the Horde as we knew it from Warcraft III. In the end, these appendages ended up running the show.
    What ruined the Horde in bfa was that the alliance wins every battle while the Horde loses at every front. Alliance bias is the problem. That needs to be dismantled.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    As someone who started as a Horde player, what ruined the faction for me was the use of the Horde as a "bin" for groups of people or races they can't find a fitting place for. This lead to the errosion of the Horde as we knew it from Warcraft III. In the end, these appendages ended up running the show.
    Given the narrative cul de sac Thrall's Horde was, the best thing to happen to it was for it to end. The worst thing has been the attempts to breathe life into increasingly shambolic versions of its corpse, beginning with Mists's "The Orcish Horde isn't Orcish" and concluding with BFA's "The Orcish Horde isn't the Horde". The Cataclysm setup was the goldmine that they'd hit where every race short of the leprous limb that were the post-TBC blood elves were both proactive and distinct and it's all been downhill since. We're now at the nadir of the faction with no way out, where all the main institutions and big names have been vacated short of Green Jesus and where we've reverted to the Horde as tag-alongs to the main story which the post-WC3 material, parts of Vanilla aside (Go save the dwarf princess, we've no story of our own lol) did well to step away from.

    @bowlink

    Afrasiabi was the guy who wrote the (very good) Horde Stonetalon Mountains questline, which is the version of Garrosh who is inspired by Saurfang and kills Krom'gar for dishonor. He's also the guy who wrote at least some of the (very good) Silverpine Forsaken story and the (50/50) Horde Western Plaguelands story. The latter of which featured the version of Sylvanas that's the closest to the BFA version, from smarmy oneliners to the fixation on hope and also staying away from fighting on the front herself, which every version of Sylvanas up to then does, in favor of scheming in the background, which isn't much like her, but it is a lot like what BFA Sylvanas would be like. It was later said that Stonetalon was a 'miscommunication', but Afrasiabi spoke during Cataclysm that Garrosh would find his footing, which of course he never did. Kosak meanwhile both wrote Edge of Night, the Sylvanas story that set her and the Forsaken's route from Cataclysm on and likely was the guy who rewrote large parts of Silverpine. Silverpine during the earliest Beta was a lot closer to WPL, complete with the Forsaken raising explicitly mindcontrolled undead and lacking many of the bigger beats, such as Sylvanas expounding on the Forsaken's ancestral claim to Lordaeron or going after the dogtags of fallen soldiers, or even the contrast between her treatment of her troops and Godfrey.

    Kosak was the biggest weight on Mists, which veered sharply away from Garrosh's humanization, be it Afrasiabi's kind where he's Saurfang Lite or the versions in Pine and Golden's stories which are distinct from Sadfang but driven by the benefit of the orcs and cast as a positive figure with valid reasons to disagree with Thrall's leadership. Instead, Garrosh would have been a caricature if not for some stellar voice acting and individual quest writing and the damage to the main universe orcs speaks for itself. Saurfang meanwhile got to bleed out in a corridor fighting fodder, never making good on either his words to Garrosh in Wrath or his implied weight to Garrosh in Stonetalon. When Afrasiabi was the lead in BFA, he veered Sylvanas steeply back towards how he characterized her in WPL and turned a story sold as something very different into his own take on Mists, combined with an increased focus on Saurfang, who was also the tool used to signal that his version of Garrosh in Stonetalon was good.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-07 at 06:27 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Given the narrative cul de sac Thrall's Horde was, the best thing to happen to it was for it to end. The worst thing has been the attempts to breathe life into increasingly shambolic versions of its corpse, beginning with Mists's "The Orcish Horde isn't Orcish" and concluding with BFA's "The Orcish Horde isn't the Horde". The Cataclysm setup was the goldmine that they'd hit where every race short of the leprous limb that were the post-TBC blood elves were both proactive and distinct and it's all been downhill since. We're now at the nadir of the faction with no way out, where all the main institutions and big names have been vacated short of Green Jesus and where we've reverted to the Horde as tag-alongs to the main story which the post-WC3 material, parts of Vanilla aside (Go save the dwarf princess, we've no story of our own lol) did well to step away from.
    A shamanistic and tribal Horde that also revolves around a warrior culture is what I liked the most about it and it didn't necessarily have to revolve around Thrall. I always imagined it would lead to seeking out all the various clans and bringing them into the fold, inter-clan turmoil, finding a purpose for the ogres to rejoin the Horde, reuniting the troll tribes to the biggest possible extent under the Horde banner and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post

    What ruined the Horde in bfa was that the alliance wins every battle while the Horde loses at every front. Alliance bias is the problem. That needs to be dismantled.
    The Alliance victories you are refering to are meaningless. They serve no purpose in the overarching story and have no impact on the power balance as shown within the game and as written in every future source of lore.

    The only Alliance assault I found to be meaningful and impactful was the siege of Lordaeron, where the Alliance tried to retake its "capital in spirit", but even that ended up being a byproduct of a - as it would turn out - juiceless plan by Sylvanas. An explanation the likes of "we'll torch Teldrassil because our enemies are up in that tree" would have been more impactful and senseful than the whole "sending souls to the maw for Zovaal to feed on" business.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2022-01-07 at 07:16 PM.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    A shamanistic and tribal Horde that also revolves around a warrior culture is what I liked the most about it and it didn't necessarily have to revolve around Thrall. I always imagined it would lead to seeking out all the various clans and bringing them into the fold, inter-clan turmoil, finding a purpose for the ogres to rejoin the Horde, reuniting the troll tribes to the biggest possible extent under the Horde banner and so on.
    The issue with that reading is that the Thrall setup wasn't that. The Thrall-era orcs didn't have distinct clans in any sense that the story acknowledged. The only ones at the time of Vanilla were the Frostwolves - which were added in WC3 and essentially the generic Thrall orc anyway, the Shattered Hand, which were some weird multiracial rogue organisation that badly wanted to be SI:7 but didn't go anywhere and the Warsong, which were solid. Reuniting the clans would require the clans to be pertinent to the Horde, but the narrative never pretended this to be the case. Most of the Clans are absent in WC3, the Blackrock are always hostile and there's no actual weight to the Horde quests going after the Dark Horde - you're just killing some random dude in Rend, making no effort to go after his clan and the like. In trying to escape the stereotype of a fantasy orc it was neutered and weak, functional in the RTS because of its limited screentime and clear arc but incapable of serving a long-term two faction narrative. Slowly readding the earlier orcish elements and recontextualizing everything from Thrall's relation to the orcish people to Durotar as an actual livable area breathed life into the main Horde race where before it was the third wheel to WC3's SC1 reenactment.

    The other issue with the WC3 Horde as a long-term storytelling basis is in your last sentence. Yes, trolls are great, I love trolls, but the Darkspear's founding gimmick, their only distinguishing gimmick in fact is that they're not like those other girls trolls. They don't practice cannibalism or blood sacrifice, their appeasement of spirits is long term. Sen'jin wasn't a character and neither was Vol'jin until Cataclysm, because then he was opposite Garrosh and the Darkspear and orcish goals were finally apart. The trolls and tauren in WC3 were never more than an addendum to the Thrall-era orcs as what was essentially underdeveloped versions of them with a different aesthetic and so unsuited to carrying on any kind of narrative on their own. They became their own players in Cataclysm when the orcs regained enough of their cumulative WC2 era characterization that they could exist apart from the orcs.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2022-01-07 at 08:35 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Legion had all the necessary "nuances" to show why Sylvanus went full loco in BfA, she fucked up her deal with heylia, her valkyrs were dying out, she wanted power and to conquer easter kingdoms, she even said she aimed for stormwind, conquering the humans and bend then to her as shields against mortality made 100% sense with the character, and tacking account how undeads can go wild like that.
    And she also was shown to be regretful in calling the retreat, and she didn't want to be warchief.

    Come on, the whole point of Sylvanas is that she could have gone either way, and BfA bulldozed any nuance and went straight for cartoon villainy.

    Again, Sylvanas could have worked 100% as a full on villain, but let's not pretend for a second that she was anywhere close to a compelling villain in BfA.


    Or, you know, the most logical thing, it was how things were uspposed to be, she being villain and still being a villain in shadowlands, and someone else take the spot of protagonist, like bolvar, the players, or anything else, but Danuser assumed and decided to gave a enw direction to Sylvanus, cause her portray right now goes against the entire trajectory of the character, from cataclysm to Legion, enven if you excluse BfA anyway.
    You say logical, but that's just what you'd like to have happened.

    Look, my criticism is how BfA narrative takes a hard and unearned left on Sylvanas characters, going full cartoon villain after she was made Warchief, forcing the Horde into yet another "evil warchief Storyline". That's not logical, that's just crappy writting, and you're so hard with your Sylvanas hater boner that you can excuse bad writing -erasing any nuance on Sylvanas- when it suits your narrative of "Sylvanas always being evil". That's literally bias.

    And again, the idea that Sylvanas was "always evil" just doesn't freaking track, the whole point of her character was that she was a little more complex than that, that's why people liked her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Afrasiabi wanted to turn Sylvanas into Satan to get back at Kosak and he succeeded. Danuser went the other direction with it, but he was still stuck with the BFA continuity and his direction also wasn't very good to begin with. Legion's cinematic wherein Sylvanas takes over was not framed as a villainous beat and the way SL frames it follows up far more from that version of Sylvanas. However in between Legion and SL there was a whole other expansion where she wasn't a character at all, and even if Danuser was an exponentially better writer than he was, he would not be able to wrap it up.

    Neither what he was left with nor the reduced expansion runtime that squeezed the story he meant to tell to its bare bones are his fault. The fact that his story was ill-considered in the first place was, as are the failures of storytelling, like hinging his entire Sylvanas plot on two equally as unstable pillars. The first being a villain he'd not even visually settled on before the expansion was out, let alone having any clear personality or even archetype to follow and then tying Sylvanas' decision retroactively to him, the second is hinging Sylvanas' interiority on an iteration of the character none but he care about, that being herself as Ranger-General.
    Honestly all of this.

    Personally I don't think Danuser "cares" for Ranger-General Sylvanas, it's just one of the tools he's using to try to course correct Sylvanas.

    To a degree this feels like an ego struggle, with one writer basically destroying Sylvanas, and the other refusing to accept that and still wanting to frame her on a sympathetic light.

    Part of me wishes that Danuser just hit the bullet and made Sylvanas just wholly evil but more complex, but there's so little that can be done with her characterization from BfA (cause again @Syegfryed the problem isn't that she was made a villain, but how badly she was written as a character, she deserved to be a waaaaaay cooler villain even if you don't like her, which is evident) but it would have been easier than trying to completely course correct the way Danuser did.

    But either way the core of the issee is that BfA makes no goddamned sense. The whole Burning of Teldrassil was a pure act of spite and a middle finger to the franchise. Sylvanas had no real in character reason to do it, one had to be retconned, the Horde had no reason to stand by her, the Night Elves were completely screwed.

    There's no up side to Teldrassil, because whomever decided to do it had no plan to deal with the fallout of any of it.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Allianc ebias controls this game. Due to people like Golden and Afrasiabi. That ruins the lore and kills all the fun for Horde players. And admins like AUclad manifest that even harder with their one sided ban strategy of people who like the Horde and don't fall on their knees whenever the alliance flexess their muscle.

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    What ruined the Horde in bfa was that the alliance wins every battle while the Horde loses at every front. Alliance bias is the problem. That needs to be dismantled.
    Alliance bias controls the game ?

    Even tho they have died or gone bad, its the horde that has had any type of story.

    Mop was Garrosh, BfA and Shadowland was Sylvanas, sure people might not like the story she have had so far, but atleast she have one.

    Name any alliance that have had any type of character progression, even in BfA where they had all the chances in the world for any type of real story for Jaina nothing happened.

    And even in Shadowlands with so many chances to do something cool with Tyrande and her hunt for Sylvanas nothing happened, Tyrande pretty much gained awesome powers and then lost them.

  18. #418
    as many people say, Danuser has been a terrible lead for the narrative of Warcraft. Not just from his awful work on BFA and SL, but also with how wasted the story of legion was.

    Now yes, this is part before Danuser took over, but boy legion should have ended with us cleaning Azeroth of all Legion invasions and the next expansion being us going on the offensive against the legion for the first time. Have the stories of Alleria/Turalyon, Argus/Draenei, Titan revivals, army of the light, Sargeras, legion homebase/raid and so on in a full expansion, not a freaking single patch. There was so much that could have been done with the Army of the Light, instead of them being just a bunch of random draenei... Xe'ra could have had much more involvement and her fight against Sargeras. Sargeras should have been more direct with us, like Arthas was in Wrath, with taunts and all that instead of just showing up randomly at the end.

    Then after the legion's end, have the expansion focus on Azshara and doing a full proper Naga arc, sprinkle in Nzoth manipulating Alliance vs Horde fights and end with a full on Nzoth revival and invasion. Nzoth then gets his proper expansion

    Instead we get all this stuff rushed into single patches so Danuser can redeem his stupid waifu -_-

  19. #419
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And she also was shown to be regretful in calling the retreat, and she didn't want to be warchief.
    Yeah, she didn't want to, because all focus was on her, doesn't mean she can't change ehr mind later seeing the pwoer in her grasp.
    Come on, the whole point of Sylvanas is that she could have gone either way, and BfA bulldozed any nuance and went straight for cartoon villainy.
    If she could go both ways, then whats the problem going one of those?

    yeah it was faster than usual, but so did Garry, wow isn't rly good at pacing.

    cause again @Syegfryed the problem isn't that she was made a villain, but how badly she was written as a character,
    But that is another problem to be talking about, bad characterization, that had a lot in BfA

    and the bigger problem is taking a character who was 120% villain and spinning a redemption as good guy because your are fanboy at it.

    Any decent writer would see sylvanas in BfA and continue the path of a villain, and, maybe make the villain more compeling, not trying to make a shyamalan plottwist

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Alliance bias controls the game ?

    Even tho they have died or gone bad, its the horde that has had any type of story.

    "you get you lore raped, your characters destroyed and killed, turn bad and wasted, you get all the focus /s"


    Its better to have no story than getting your faction ruined, Alliance people don't know how luck they are, i wish iw as a dwarf fan, no story but my race isn't fucked over the years.

    And even in Shadowlands with so many chances to do something cool with Tyrande and her hunt for Sylvanas nothing happened, Tyrande pretty much gained awesome powers and then lost them.
    This is whats happens when you get story in wow, this is the horde life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    BFA and BTS were not made in common continuity with previous appearances by Sylvanas. They turned the character into a caricature to service Sadfang's story, among others, and wrecked the entire Forsaken race to do so in the case of BTS and the whole of the Horde faction in the case of BFA. SL's error isn't in making Sylvanas a character again after she was a plot device to service other wastes of space, it's that that character turn was poorly executed and doomed to failure by default.
    Seems like it is a decent continuity, the only difference is how they went the maddening spiral too quickly, but that is a problem for almost everything in wow, like Grom from villain to draenor is free because they cut all of his development.

    But don't get me wrong, BfA sucked hairy balls, and its prob the worst wow expansion to date, but Sylvanas becoming villain made sense.

    But she becoming fangirl of a bald man, since wtlk, then suddenly "i will never serve" then, haiving two sylvani, then she is pain regret, and now is good with a lame redemption arc? this don't make any sense.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-01-08 at 02:30 AM.

  20. #420
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    I don't know the guy. I am not going to insult the guy personally, but I am also not going to say I enjoy the lead direction this lore is going in. I quit WoW because of this expansion and for the first time in 16 years unsubbed and tis mainly due to the theme of the expansion and it having no connection with me. Also the gameplay and anxiety inducing systems didn't help either.

    I'll maybe come back next expansion but if its also not good I will remain unsubbed. The storytelling is so bad, like really bad, it has potential, all the pieces are there but its so disjoined and messy and badly incorporated into the game.
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

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