When did WoW convince itself Raiding is the only thing that's important?

[scubi666stacy]

"Casual"
"Challenge"

my dude... thats like saying

"The biggest smallest"
They are literally counter to eachother...

casual content is not challenging, its casual, thats literally the point of casual. if you make casual content hard, its not longer casual its hard. so then you end up with pvp, M+, and raiding like we already have.

Or content which can be played without a schedule or fixed group.

[Kyriani]

So it is identical to wow with non raiders having roughly heroic level raid gear?

Something like that. But the gear ilvl gap between the raiders and non-raiders is smaller and gets even smaller as time goes on.

The current best gear in FFXIV is ilvl 600 for armor and 605 for weapons.

Raiders can get ivl 600 armor and ilvl 605 weapons right away, and non-raiders can get ilvl 590 armor that can eventually be upgraded to ivl 600. Non-raiders can get an ilvl 590 weapon that can eventually be upgraded to 600 but they take longer to get it because they need 7 weeks of tokens from the final lfr-esque raid boss to get it. Non-raiders also have to wait till the items to upgrade their armor and weapons are available outside of the raid. So raiders get geared faster, but non-raiders can eventually catch up before a new tier comes out.

Raiders get to spend more time geared out, but even non-raiders get a decent amount of time being max geared before a new tier comes out so everyone gets to take a breather from the treadmill and enjoy the fruits of their labors. In the next major content patch we'll probably see the relic weapon questline for Endwalker begin. Relic weapons are expansion spanning weapons that get better via a questline throughout an expansion, often having unique appearances at various stages, and being comparable or even slightly superior to the raider weapons by the end of an expansion.

And just to not leave crafting out of the equation, crafters can currently make 580 ilvl weapons and armor, which will eventually be upgradeable to 590. Crafting maxing at 590 compared to the max 600 armor 600/605 weapons isn't a huge gap in FFXIV terms.

[potis]

I have to wonder about the sincerity of that given that you've decided 80-90% of the people in the game don't belong there. That's an argument that I believe you will eventually lose. The game was never meant to be hard-core. It just crept in as the developing staff changed. For the business health of the game I'm expecting to see that change sometime in the next couple of expansions. It's far easier and more profitable up front to attempt to satisfy that 80% than to lose them and make up the difference with services. That's a simple calculation that if Ion won't make it himself then someone in Santa Monica will do it for him at some point.

Meanwhile, if you don't care what the casual 80-90% are doing, stop saying they shouldn't be a part of the game. If they leave it won't be good for you.

Why do we repeat this? I dont care what they are doing, i havent played outside my circle which now has e-friends too for the last 7 years, and before that, i had a bigger circle of IRL people, this is a personal thing, what others do, is irrelevant cause i have many people, either friends or familiars of higher gaming skill if i wanna play computer games with.

That covers that, i dont care how many people WoW has, as long as those 15-40 people averagely that still play WoW on and off, are around, cause i never bother outside those people, i have better things to do if they arent online.

On the % of the game, of course the 90% doesnt belong there, i am not saying they cant play or shouldnt or they dont have fun but it doesnt mean they are anything else than victims of a bad choice, its the same people that buy a yearly gym membership for new years resolution and go 3 times and paid x 50 what they should have paid if they simply went 3 times because everyone else is doing it.

They just played another game, they read on the internet something, and they played WoW, 0 research, 0 anything, its the same as every AAA game has insane profit despite what people think "everyone is", warning before hand, the dumb consumers dont care, thats what the 90%, dumb consumers, nothing else.

This is the problem that 90% doesnt belong in the game, but also - doesnt care cause it doesnt know better and has fun-, the problem is the other 9% that thinks they are the representatives of the 90%, like people like Ninetales do.

He isnt part of the 90%, he thinks he is, he the part where he played too long, he knows how to progress fast and what to do, but he is not skilled enough to do so or do the content he is supposed to be doing for someone playing so much, therefor he can only complain.

[Tyris Flare]

Something like that. But the gear ilvl gap between the raiders and non-raiders is smaller and gets even smaller as time goes on.

The current best gear in FFXIV is ilvl 600 for armor and 605 for weapons.

Raiders can get ivl 600 armor and ilvl 605 weapons right away, and non-raiders can get ilvl 590 armor that can eventually be upgraded to ivl 600. Non-raiders can get an ilvl 590 weapon that can eventually be upgraded to 600 but they take longer to get it because they need 7 weeks of tokens from the final lfr-esque raid boss to get it. Non-raiders also have to wait till the items to upgrade their armor and weapons are available outside of the raid. So raiders get geared faster, but non-raiders can eventually catch up before a new tier comes out.

Raiders get to spend more time geared out, but even non-raiders get a decent amount of time being max geared before a new tier comes out so everyone gets to take a breather from the treadmill and enjoy the fruits of their labors. .

Seems to be true in basically every other major game at this point, at least that I'm familiar with. Elite players getting gear that's 20%+ better than everyone else definitely feels like a relic of a past era.

[TBCCLOL]

So it is identical to wow with non raiders having roughly heroic level raid gear?

590 vs 600

- - - Updated - - -

Seems to be true in basically every other major game at this point, at least that I'm familiar with. Elite players getting gear that's 20%+ better than everyone else definitely feels like a relic of a past era.

Because if you make more content outside Raids people will be ok with that even if they have no insane endgame content.


This is why games like FF and LA have a lot of non pve content to do

[GreenJesus]

unfortunately that’s kinda how trying to make content outside of raids(and to a lesser extent dungeons) relevant always plays out.

The mop scenarios are a perfect example blizzard made a bunch of them for people to have fun with friends and get some story tid bits and next to no one did them. So they then made heroics scenarios that gave valor so you could upgrade your raid gear and they became a chore people complained about instead.

Pet battles and mage tower might be the only content that’s ever avoided this problem.

as some one who had done every daily rep to exalted multiple times gotta hard disagree. Doing the same quest (in mop mabye 3 batch’s of different quest) every day got old super fast and the world quest having a lot more variation is just better in pretty much every way rather your doing all the quest available to maximize rep or are just doing the chest for slower but steady progress.

Shadowlands loterally just copy pasted leveling quests as "world quests". I also remember there was just the same quests nearly every single day or at least every other day. And its just some talking head telling me to fill a bar or kill 8 dudes. At least dailies were usually in different areas than leveling and had interactions with different NPCs or had different themed mechanics. I.e. shadowpan followers giving you different benefits or the theme of a reputation being to raise a serpent dragon.

There was also the klaxxi where you unlocked new Paragons each with their own buffs by advancing the reputation. World quests have none of that. Its just keep whack a mole the map icons and eventually you hit exalted so you can buy a piece of gear you outgeared on day 1 of hitting max level.

[MoanaLisa]

Citation please.

Wait, you can't, but it feeeels right, doesn't it?

MMO-C used to run regular regular graphs from the API data about how much participation there was in active raiding. We haven't done that in some years but, discounting LFR, raiding past the first boss of any raid never got much above 20%, usually much lower. That's why LFR exists per their own statements. Not enough people raid to make it worth the development cost without an LFR around to raise the return-on-investment. Even though it's been a while there's nothing to suggest that anything has changed. If anything it's likely that the advent of M+ pulled raiding participation down even further.

[EbaumsTipster]

Shadowlands loterally just copy pasted leveling quests as "world quests". I remember there was just the same quests nearly every single day. And its just some talking head telling me to fill a bar or kill 8 dudes. At least dailies were usually in different areas than leveling and had interactions with different NPCs or had different themed mechanics. I.e. shadowpan followers giving you different benefits or the theme of a reputation being to raise a serpent dragon.

There was also the klaxxi where you unlocked new Paragons each with their own buffs by advancing the reputation. World quests have none of that. Its just keep whack a mole the map icons and eventually you hit exalted so you can buy a piece of gear you outgeared on day 1 of hitting max level.

Reputations are mostly done these days for cosmetics. Would you rather they were tied to player power?

People would kill themselves if they had to grind bear asses for BIS like in the old days.

[GreenJesus]

Reputations are probably done these days for cosmetics. Would you rather they were tied to player power?

You are missing my point. Reputations used to tell a story. I was excited to hit honored/revered so that I could unlock the next story or unearth a new Paragon of the klaxxi and with it a new batch of world quests I could do and buffs to choose from. World quests are just shallow and predictable mechanics that exist for the sake of grinding and maybe buy a mount for 50k from a vendor.

[EbaumsTipster]

You are missing my point. Reputations used to tell a story. I was excited to hit honored/revered so that I could unlock the next story or unearth a new Paragon of the klaxxi and with it a new batch of world quests I could do and buffs to choose from. World quests are just shallow and predictable mechanics that exist for the sake of grinding and maybe buy a mount for 50k from a vendor.

I liked the Klaxxi too but you are describing maybe five reputations out of 100+. Outside of the Lorewalkers, Cloud Serpent gang and Hyjal avengers I can’t even remember the last one like that... besides the main BFA reps which people hated.

I would like more story reps too but they are a luxury, not at all a staple of old WoW.

[Toppy]

It didn't, players did. WOW has things to do that don't focus on raiding but the more vocal part of the playerbase is too busy chasing gear to notice those activities.

You do realize that many of the early wow devs were hardcore raiders from other games right? They ALWAYS had an over inflated raid focus. They just at the same time came from games that had a big adventuring and world focus so they did both.

Its not a question of "What did raiding become important" its "When did they decide they would stop putting effort into anything else".

[Tyris Flare]

MMO-C used to run regular regular graphs from the API data about how much participation there was in active raiding. We haven't done that in some years but, discounting LFR, raiding past the first boss of any raid never got much above 20%, usually much lower. That's why LFR exists per their own statements. Not enough people raid to make it worth the development cost without an LFR around to raise the return-on-investment. Even though it's been a while there's nothing to suggest that anything has changed. If anything it's likely that the advent of M+ pulled raiding participation down even further.

We have no idea if that is true or not anymore, or how to measure what an "active character" is. Ultimately we just use logic and handwave, which is completely fine for a conversation between reasonable people. But a lot of folks like NS here infamously (and disingenuously) ask for data they know doesn't exist while simultaneously spitting out precise numbers as if they are facts.

In any event, multiple things can be true at the same time:
-This game has pretty much always been "raid focused," in the sense that raiding has the best gear and most prestige
-WoW has been successful beyond anyone's imagination doing this
-The modern game treats casual players pretty badly and it is long past time to fix that
-Lots of people here should just play other games and stop worrying about it

[Toppy]

I liked the Klaxxi too but you are describing maybe five reputations out of 100+. Outside of the Lorewalkers, Cloud Serpent gang and Hyjal avengers I can’t even remember the last one like that... besides the main BFA reps which people hated.

I would like more story reps too but they are a luxury, not at all a staple of old WoW.

You're right.

MoP really was the pinnacle of WoW. Great raiding. Great casual content. Even did more world building than past expansions via the lore walkers and archaology.

Now I wonder what happened after MoP that changed everything.

Hmmmmmm

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Shadowlands loterally just copy pasted leveling quests as "world quests". I also remember there was just the same quests nearly every single day or at least every other day. And its just some talking head telling me to fill a bar or kill 8 dudes. At least dailies were usually in different areas than leveling and had interactions with different NPCs or had different themed mechanics. I.e. shadowpan followers giving you different benefits or the theme of a reputation being to raise a serpent dragon.

There was also the klaxxi where you unlocked new Paragons each with their own buffs by advancing the reputation. World quests have none of that. Its just keep whack a mole the map icons and eventually you hit exalted so you can buy a piece of gear you outgeared on day 1 of hitting max level.

I can't say I can remember ever getting the same world quest every other day mabye one's in the same area but always different quest.

and ya mop had alot moore going for the daily's but tbc-cata mostly just followed the world quest in having the daily's be lvling quest in lvling areas.

[GreenJesus]

I liked the Klaxxi too but you are describing maybe five reputations out of 100+. Outside of the Lorewalkers, Cloud Serpent gang and Hyjal avengers I can’t even remember the last one like that... besides the main BFA reps which people hated.

I would like more story reps too but they are a luxury, not at all a staple of old WoW.

All of the MoP reps in general had unique mechanics or NPC interactions and had story advancement by earning reputation. WoD they just swung the pendulum the other way with just "fill this bar". Blizzard always listens to feedback in nearly the worst possible way. People said "too many dailies required for me to do every day" and they just went "fine we'll just remove them all then."

[Toppy]

We have no idea if that is true or not anymore, or how to measure what an "active character" is. Ultimately we just use logic and handwave, which is completely fine for a conversation between reasonable people. But a lot of folks like NS here infamously (and disingenuously) ask for data they know doesn't exist while simultaneously spitting out precise numbers as if they are facts.

In any event, multiple things can be true at the same time:
-This game has pretty much always been "raid focused," in the sense that raiding has the best gear and most prestige
-WoW has been successful beyond anyone's imagination doing this
-The modern game treats casual players pretty badly and it is long past time to fix that
-Lots of people here should just play other games and stop worrying about it

There is NO QUESTION that raiders have always been a massive minority in WoW. About the only time they ever got into double digit percentages of the player base was in WotLK, which severely reduced raid difficulty compared to the past.

WoW became wildly succesful by being the most accesible MMO on the market. Again, there is NO question of this. Compared to EQ or FFXI, WoW was a casual wonderland. You could actually adventure and solo ON YOUR OWN, which was unheard of in other mainstream MMO.

WoW's entire fortune is built upon casual content. Hardcore has always been a thing a huge minority have done. And the more focus they put on hardcore, the more its hurt the game.,

[Osmeric]

That's because raiders proved to be the most reliable subscribers. Casuals come and go.

If you cater to raiders, then of course they will be the most reliable subscribers.

This reminds me of the joke about the boy who killed his parents, then asked the court for mercy because he's an orphan.

[GreenJesus]

I can't say I can remember ever getting the same world quest every other day mabye one's in the same area but always different quest.

and ya mop had alot moore going for the daily's but tbc-cata mostly just followed the world quest in having the daily's be lvling quest in lvling areas.

MoP was the last expansion that used the daily system so ill compare it to that. Each expansion SHOULD be improvements compared to previous. They set that expectation and I hold them to it.

[Ezyah]

When exactly was there something in WoW so great that it was worth playing outside of raid (pvp aside) ? Please, dont talk to me about timeless isles ...

[Toppy]

If you cater to raiders, then of course they will be the most reliable subscribers.

This reminds me of the joke about the boy who killed his parents, then asked the court for mercy because he's an orphan.

Funny thing. The hardcore crowd are the most FICKLE crowd in any game.

The casuals are ussually the last to go. The raiders are the first to stop and quit.