Equality

[Syegfryed]

So basically, you can't back it up. Too bad canon and all the facts and proofs disagree with you, but Lord knows that's pretty normal.

nothing you said had any back it up, lmao, you literally lying saying night elves are nearly extinct.

They haven't settled on a number, but every statement in game and out supports the idea that the majority of the population is gone.

Where is the proof on that? you are calling for proofs and are nto giving any yourself, only over dramatic posts appealing to pity.

Loss of multiple cities - Southshore, Darnassus, Dolanaar, Silverwind Refuge, Theramore off the top of my head

ah yes, Silverwind refuge, you know, the palce that night elves took again after BfA , southshore also, retaken by the alliance,

since those were horde, can we consider this as horde losing cities? they also took Mor'shan Ramparts in ashenvale and another palce in azshara that i forget the name

Tlking like only alliance lose something, when after the fourth war alliance is taking back their lands as well horde lands with alliance once again invading the barrens and durotar..

a core race turned into a nearly extinct humiliated punching bag - Night Elves have been the Horde's punching bag since Cata and every official statement makes clear they lost the majority of their people with Teldrassil

they are not nearly extinct, and all races get killed, stop being dramatic, Forsaken lost as much or even more than night elves, other races lost characters leaders and didn't evne get a replacement for years.

Alliance leaders rushing to comfort and console the enemy - Anduin acts as a pallbearer and delivers a eulogy for Saurfang, the general who led the Teldrassil campaign. Not one damn word of comfort to the Night Elves, who are his people's allies

Ah yes, making an alliance character being the hero who teach the other faction things

Imagine having your faction being demeaned by the enemy and someone saying that is something good for you lmao

the entire faction rendered into NPCs only reacting to the Horde, the story has been almost exclusively Horde led since TBC

Factually wrong, Horde only got spotlight in the story in cataclysm, BFA and MOP, the rest they just standby, plus, in 2 of those expansions they made then villains with character assassination

but that is still somehow good, then you coimplaint when they do the same with night elves

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Despite a small minority on the forum trying to deny that but there is a lot of Horde bias inside Blizzard from the start.

Yeah, like almost all devs playing alliance.

The whole game from Warcraft 3 and after was made with the Horde in mind. Elite Tauren Chieftain with the power of the Horde with no Alliance counterpart,

Yeah, the game was amde with wow in mind because some devs made a metal band for a joke based on horde

he rigged competition regarding the Alliance and the Horde chopper, Racial skills that favor the Horde which leads to the result Feanoro mentioned above regarding PVE and PVP in Horde vs Alliance Ratio, story that favors the Horde survival by bending all the rules, equalizing victims and killers, justifying murder and destruction with no consequences.

>Completely ignoring the fact that before, alliance was the majority of the game, had better racials, more and better quests and things only change in cataclysm.

[Taarna]

Why are the Horde always written as the "bad guys"?

Because you need a good guy and a bad guy in a story, and in a world that is based on "orcs and humans" guess who it's gonna be. Orcs invaded Azeroth. They'll always be the villains.

[Feanoro]

@Syegfryed So now you're adding to your resume of headcanon every post with historical revisionism, cool. The Horde story took center stage in TBC with events like Thrall "going home", the introduction of Garrosh, and things like the nature of Naaru in one of the Auchindoun dungeons. Naturally, you'll blow that all off with more of your "pity the orc" shtick.

We have blue statements from AMAs and books stating there was a management directive to "incentivize" more players to go Horde. They did so with massively imbalanced racials, which began the avalanche of players and entire guilds going Horde. Any advantage the Alliance had in vanilla went bye bye with Horde paladins, or would you like to claim that Horde didn't get world firsts in every raid? If so, Nihilum must have been a mass delusion we all had back then.

I'm starting to agree with @MyWholeLifeIsThunder, you're not here to discuss a damn thing.

[Syegfryed]

@Syegfryed So now you're adding to your resume of headcanon

says the guy who keep repeating the night elves are, verbatim, nearly extinct, despite having no proof and game lore saying otherwise.

you'll blow that all off with more of your "pity the orc" shtick

I don't think its me who keep constantly mourning the night elves and attempting the appeal to pity fallacy to win over arguments, like saying night elves got "nearly extinct" and are "punching bag" so we feel bad for then, while ignoring every race is a punching bag in this game.

We have blue statements from AMAs and books stating there was a management directive to "incentivize" more players to go Horde.

Yeah, why do you think had to incentive people to play horde? because alliance was the majority of the playerbase, just like what i said

They did so with massively imbalanced racials, which began the avalanche of players and entire guilds going Horde.

Nope, as leaderboards were all humans, they did so by adding blood elves.

Any advantage the Alliance had in vanilla went bye bye with Horde paladins

then you admit the alliance had advantage when the game was created then?refuuting your argument that the game was amde with hord ein mind?

I'm starting to agree with @MyWholeLifeIsThunder, you're not here to discuss a damn thing.

Guess i should do like you guys, deflect and appeal to fallacies.

[Darth-Piekus]

That is all good and all but we are dealing with facts here,things that happened.

1)Have you seen an Alliance equivalent to Elite Tauren Chieftain or a Power of the Alliance song?
2)Have you heard the NPC guards from both the Alliance and the Horde chanting the For the Alliance or For the Horde? Dare to tell me that they sound similar in passion cause I don't see this at all.
3)What about that Blizzcon event with a Singer who was trashtalking all of the Alliance guests in there? I think it was when they introduced Mists of Pandaria.
4)The fact that instead of creating new questlines and adding hubs for the Horde as there was enough space they decided to reduce the Alliance hubs with the worst way possible by making them look like idiots and they claimed equality and bullshit.
5)The fact that devs themselves claim that they prefer writing the Horde than the Alliance.
6)As Feanoro said above they took a dump to the whole Paladin lore by giving them with the worst way possible to the Blood Elves by letting them experimenting with a Naruu despite that is now how using the Light works.

[Feanoro]

says the guy who keep repeating the night elves are, verbatim, nearly extinct, despite having no proof and game lore saying otherwise.

You can quit lying about my posts any time you like.

then you admit the alliance had advantage when the game was created then?

Go read what I've actually said, not the strawmen you keep making of my posts, and you'll see I never said a word about vanilla, just that the game has been about the Horde for the majority of its lifetime.

refuuting your argument that the game was amde with hord ein mind?

Best case, you're confusing me with another poster. Far more likely, you're making shit up and putting those words in my mouth. So yes, you're not here to discuss, you're here to push headcanon, your creepy hatred of real world people who enjoy elves in fantasy (how the hell that isn't considered violating forum rules I don't know), and half-assed Horde apologism. Got it.

@Darth-Piekus I think we should remember we're talking to the president of the "Garrosh did nothing wrong" fanclub and find a better way to spend our time. Blizzard has favored one side in a two faction game since TBC, and it's no small part of the decline. Let them reap what they sowed.

[Syegfryed]

You can quit lying about my posts any time you like.

Thats literally what you said

a core race turned into a nearly extinct humiliated punching bag.

Go read what I've actually said, not the strawmen you keep making of my posts, and you'll see I never said a word about vanilla, just that the game has been about the Horde for the majority of its lifetime.

and that is not true as things only changed rly in cataclysm, you said the game was amde in horde in mind, and that is not true.

Far more likely, you're making shit up and putting those words in my mouth

a core race turned into a nearly extinct humiliated punching bag.

Isn't this you?

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That is all good and all but we are dealing with facts here,things that happened.

1)Have you seen an Alliance equivalent to Elite Tauren Chieftain or a Power of the Alliance song?

You can't force someone to make another thematic band, why alliance players don't do it? and even tauren cheiftain have songs about the alliance and other things like rogues and murlocs,, lmao

2)Have you heard the NPC guards from both the Alliance and the Horde chanting the For the Alliance or For the Horde? Dare to tell me that they sound similar in passion cause I don't see this at all.

that is just stretching, lol, now youa re checking the tone too, of two different words.

3)What about that Blizzcon event with a Singer who was trashtalking all of the Alliance guests in there? I think it was when they introduced Mists of Pandaria.

That is a case of growing thick skin and getting in as sportive, maybe if there was a similar artist that play alliance tot rashtalk horde too, you would not see complains.

This however isn't showing that "blizzard favours horde" isn't like the devs order him to say that lol. Next the argument is that since horde races are more colorful, its clearly horde favoritism.

4)The fact that instead of creating new questlines and adding hubs for the Horde as there was enough space they decided to reduce the Alliance hubs with the worst way possible by making them look like idiots and they claimed equality and bullshit.

if they have the same quantity still is equality, just not the way you liked.

5)The fact that devs themselves claim that they prefer writing the Horde than the Alliance.

yeah, and see the reasons why, that explains all

6)As Feanoro said above they took a dump to the whole Paladin lore by giving them with the worst way possible to the Blood Elves by letting them experimenting with a Naruu despite that is now how using the Light works.

and not to shaman? just paladin, nothing new in the alliance fields, its only bad if done to then.

[Feanoro]

you said the game was amde in horde in mind

Then you won't mind quoting where I said anything like that about vanilla.

Love too how you deliberately broke context for "Far more likely, you're making shit up and putting those words in my mouth." which was in reference to your bullshit lie about me saying one word about vanilla.

So headcanon, historical revisionism, "if you disagree with me, you're biased", lying, twisting words, quoting out of context, strawmen... Yeah, you're a shining example of a Horde player, all right. You can spew more BS if you like, but I'm done reading it.

[Hctaz]

You are conveniently leaving out that Garrosh went into business for himself and became an enemy of both the Alliance and the Horde. Even if it was in the name of the Horde ("True Horde" as he was calling it, his vision of it)... the actual Horde faction rebelled against him. Adding him to the list of "losing important figures" of the Horde is just silly


The Zanadari trolls were not even officially apart of the Horde at the time of Rastakhan's death, so he doesn't really count as an "important figure" in the Horde.

Because it's the same situation. He was a horde leader in Cataclysm that felt decent yet flawed. Then they did some stupid shit with his character and killed him off for it. That's what OP is saying might happen with Sylvanas.

[Rozz]

I think it's because the Alliancce can't afford to.
1) They have the the most overpowered characters that are hard to kill
2) If those characters are removed, the entire driving force for their race stalls (see Sylvanas' effect on Forsaken identity). Anduin is still frequently rejected as a replacement for Varian and human lore is just Anduin and Jaina sticking their hands in stuff.

Meanwhile the Horde races have more going on thematically in their culture than in their leadership. The current leaders (and the past ones) are generally detached from how the race is viewed, just enough that you can replace them or give them independent stories that define them outside their faction.(again outside of the Forsaken)

I also think that most of the Horde races fit the rule of cool vibe the original devs were going for with the franchise. So they'll be the driving force of the plot, because that's who the writers want to work with.

[Jackstraw]

Oh boy what a field day.

1)Have you seen an Alliance equivalent to Elite Tauren Chieftain or a Power of the Alliance song?

The Nightsong, Daughter of the Sea.

2)Have you heard the NPC guards from both the Alliance and the Horde chanting the For the Alliance or For the Horde? Dare to tell me that they sound similar in passion cause I don't see this at all.

How can you blame communities rallying behind a catchphrase on the devs?

3)What about that Blizzcon event with a Singer who was trashtalking all of the Alliance guests in there? I think it was when they introduced Mists of Pandaria.

Are we talking about Bonegrinder of Cannibal Corpse, interviewed backstage during one of the band tours?
Can we go even with Vin Diesel and Rhonda Rousey going public playing Night Elf Druids during Fast and Furious shootings? Or Cavill playing Human Priest?
Where's the Horde star power dude. Why no AAA actors play Horde!

4)The fact that instead of creating new questlines and adding hubs for the Horde as there was enough space they decided to reduce the Alliance hubs with the worst way possible by making them look like idiots and they claimed equality and bullshit.

So the solution proper was to keep the Alliance with more quests? Gotcha.
But zingers aside, when has this ever happened?
And while we're in the whataboutisms, what about the Garrisons and the astonishing difference in quality between the two.

5)The fact that devs themselves claim that they prefer writing the Horde than the Alliance.

Could you imagine not being inspired by a faction of do-gooder demigods who can do no wrong ever because the Alliance base rallies up in arms every time some edge is introduced?
The Horde proved to be overall better receiving of inputs in the story of the game. The Horde has basically been told that Vol'jin dying to an NPC was a cutscene equivalent to Varian Wrynn bestowing Shalamayne to Anduin and so there would be no "compensation". The Horde kind of ate it up, alongside with the whole touting of Sylvanas' plan being a great surprise.

Not to mention that, as much as writers like writing Horde stuff, the faction was embarassingly absent during the entire final stretch of Legion, with literally no NPCs contributing anything meaningful starting from Tomb of Sargeras onwards, and despite having the Orcs as the race with one of the largest bones to pick, even if just to redeem their legacy of corruption.

6)As Feanoro said above they took a dump to the whole Paladin lore by giving them with the worst way possible to the Blood Elves by letting them experimenting with a Naruu despite that is now how using the Light works.

Cosmic powers work as writers need them to work, similarly to power levels and other intangibles.
Aside from that, siphoning a Naaru, a being of pure light, and using it as proxy for the Blood Knights was the edgiest take possible on how Paladins worked. The Paladin lore was mostly intact and instantly framed the dire straits the entirety of the Blood Elves was, and how determined they were, adding a much needed difference with the Alliance Paladins or Paladins proper, and another element of distinction between the factions.

the game has been about the Horde for the majority of its lifetime.

Blizzard has favored one side in a two faction game since TBC, and it's no small part of the decline. Let them reap what they sowed.

The decline has mostly been in gameplay quality. By and large, people do not care about the lore.
This being said, the Horde being front and center is maybe true in Cataclysm where Thrall is the chosen one to ultimately shoot down Deathwing. Aside from that, MoP starts the Anduin character arc and WoD wears Yrel on a sleeve whenever it can. Whatever is there to be said about Orcs is immediately neutered by the fact that the Iron Horde is there to be slain, and Legion isn't a Draenei expansion by any stretch of the imagination despite the Eredar.

In no way shape or form we can talk about Horde favoritism in a world where Jaina exists, Orgrimmar has been basically sacked two times and the entire Argus campaign is in the state it's presented, led from a flying Alliance capital, with prominent Alliance NPCs arguing between themselves without any counterpart.

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On topic, the Horde has been the featured bad guy, nobody can say why really.
Anecdotally, a vocal and sizable part of the player base absolutely pushes back any kind of involvement in anything that's not a classic heroic fantasy spotlight, whereas the other is overall more willing to see how things unfold.

[Dancaris]

You want some equality, ye? With this writting team we will have as much of blue preference (and that what you want, and not equality, total dominance of blue stories) as they can put in game.
See modern expansions - Legion was all about Alliance. 1 place where Horde characters was present - shaman class hall. Others are neurtal at best, or Alliance flawored. Highmountain story with Baine was cutted bc ITS TOO HORDECENTRIC, while Valshara M LOVE, TYRAYNDE stays. Or Stormheim, when Genn start war, but ITS HORDE BAD, WE ARE VICTIMS.
ToS - no Horde characters, Argus - no Horde characters (Ethas afking in basement not counting ofc) and with such crying about helping nightborne and such silence about helping Lightforged and Alleria. Same with class hall stories. Human weapons, human weapons, NE weapons, panda weapons, human weapons again and 1 Doomhummer. Total equality yes?
Then we have glorious BFA HORDECENTRISM, when horde races got slaughtered by Alliance demigods, while Horde characters just moroned to fascists or dumb sticks. While only thing that faction have is 1 sad old orc. When most powerful fleet of trolls just get mined and exploded, when Jaina by herself kills armies. When all warfronts, all land that contested belongs to Alliance now. Or when in books leaders of blue team torturing civils and its now a right thing to do? When Alliance spies get permission to go to all Horde lands and Horde zappiboi and Rexxar just afraid to come to NE woods, while Horde cant defend even Durotar and Barrens from expedition from like 20years ago?
Or when we have SL, that is all about EVIL SYLVANAS and good Jaina (Alliance), Bolvar (Alliance), Anduin (soon will be good), while Baine and Thrall still afking in Oribos, you know.
NIGHT ELVES THAT TOOK SO MUCH DAMAGE, WE WILL RESSURECT THEM. What? Horde troops and civils stays in Maw? Who cares really, POOR NIGHT ELVES.

And that equality you want? Sure, you can have that. All you can manage. And before you start your excuses - name just one true Horde moment from you know, end of Pandaria? Like Ga'nar death cinematic, that give you chills? Or Thrall wants to finish Garrosh head for good?

[Raxacorico]

What's wrong about it? I play horde because I want to be the bad guy, I want to play as a bad guy and I want to have bad guy motives. That said, Sylvanas' head should still be impaled on a spike, she betrayed the horde for her own interest.

[Syegfryed]

Then you won't mind quoting where I said anything like that about vanilla.

How the game was "made with horde in mind" if, the game in their release - vanilla - was heavy alliance focused? you make no sense

Love too how you deliberately broke context for "Far more likely, you're making shit up and putting those words in my mouth." which was in reference to your bullshit lie about me saying one word about vanilla.

So headcanon, historical revisionism, "if you disagree with me, you're biased", lying, twisting words, quoting out of context, strawmen... Yeah, you're a shining example of a Horde player, all right. You can spew more BS if you like, but I'm done reading it.

This is literally you said a headcanon and you are saying you didn't:

a core race turned into a nearly extinct humiliated punching bag.

im not ''putting words in your mouth" im literally quoting what you said

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Meanwhile the Horde races have more going on thematically in their culture than in their leadership. The current leaders (and the past ones) are generally detached from how the race is viewed, just enough that you can replace them or give them independent stories that define them outside their faction.(again outside of the Forsaken)

Except when you kill all of their characters and there is none to replace then cause you didn't build then.

Like orcs and trolls passing years, without a leader

I also think that most of the Horde races fit the rule of cool vibe the original devs were going for with the franchise. So they'll be the driving force of the plot, because that's who the writers want to work with.

in one of the interviews(i think it was when they talk about why they put blood elves on horde) they said its easier to write for horde because anything they did was saw as something good, because when you barely have shit, anything new is exciting.

While in the alliance is working like you are stepping on eggs, because the fanbase never liked what they did or where never happy, this lead to the story being more of the same, not killing their characters, not being bold, etc.

[geco]

There's a theme to all of this Alliance vs Horde stuff.
And it is that the Alliance even at this point exists only by Mechanics.

Kaldorei Fans more than once made it clear that they are not part of the Alliance and are half of the Alliance.
Dwarves and Genomes are tiny humans.
The Dranei are truly Neutral.

At the end of the day the Alliance is only Humans and friends. The Kaldorei forced into it and the occasional neutral race that has to have a side to be playable.

In other Words while the Horde is a unit. The alliance is several nations that do not have a common identity Allied by a treaty only.
And their unity is so weak that if the Alliance helps one of their races it is usually considered that it is a bad ending or that the problem is not solved.

While in the alliance is working like you are stepping on eggs, because the fanbase never liked what they did or where never happy, this lead to the story being more of the same, not killing their characters, not being bold, etc.

Look at the lore of any race of the Alliance and you will realize that it is not really that the fans get angry, it is that they come to destroy anything and put in its place the "AMAZING HUMANS LEADED BY ANDUIN THE HOLY SAVIOR" .

I mean literally I imagine that there are several within WoW who say "Oh shit the Fans of the Kaldorei are not satisfied that the souls of their race were destroyed and that Elune ORDERED them not to seek revenge. They are not happy with anything".

[Jackstraw]

Like orcs and trolls passing years, without a leader

The website sports new Race splash pages (really clean by the way, a little more game friendly and a little less RPG manual, which I dig).
Orc leader is To Be Determined with some blurb about Thrall, and Orcs have no mount displayed.
Also, according to their page Forsaken leader is - following design principles - the Skeletal Warhorse. The Forsaken have no leader card at all.

It really cracked me up.

There's also the factor that Darnassus, placed as Kaldorei capital, is acknowledged in its bodycopy as being destroyed. Undercity is not.

[Feanoro]

How can you blame communities rallying behind a catchphrase on the devs?

Are we talking about Bonegrinder of Cannibal Corpse, interviewed backstage during one of the band tours?

Yes, the guy who cursed out Alliance players including homophobic slurs who wasn't instantly fired, like you'd expect from hired entertainment that insulted half your customers.

So the solution proper was to keep the Alliance with more quests? Gotcha.

Reading is hard. The stated solution was to add more Horde quests and hubs.

Could you imagine not being inspired by a faction of do-gooder demigods who can do no wrong ever because the Alliance base rallies up in arms every time some edge is introduced?

Gosh, who is responsible for turning the Alliance into that? Couldn't possibly be the paid employees.

The decline has mostly been in gameplay quality. By and large, people do not care about the lore.

Again, reading is hard. I didn't limit it to lore.

Orgrimmar has been basically sacked two times

Orgrimmar has been taken from Garrosh by Vol'jin's Horde and the Alliance was allowed to tag along. What's the second time, when Anduin acted as a pallbearer and delivered the eulogy for the orc who led the Ashenvale and Darkshore campaigns?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Nowadays their philosophy is horde and alliance band together to defeat another threat.As i saw some videos of them they even consider cross faction raids or battlegrounds.

That was the plot of Warcraft 3 over 2 decades ago.

[Loreth88]

Kaldorei Fans more than once made it clear that they are not part of the Alliance and are half of the Alliance.
Dwarves and Genomes are tiny humans.
The Dranei are truly Neutral.

At the end of the day the Alliance is only Humans and friends. The Kaldorei forced into it and the occasional neutral race that has to have a side to be playable.

Why n elves wanna be stay with Anduin alliance? He didin't even give a f... about them, he even mention anything about Teldrassil, the loss lives of his allies? No, but he have a nice hearth warming speech about poor poor old Saurfang....

[AtomR]

Although I do agree that in terms of loosing big name beloved characters the horde had it way worse than alliance don't forget that until BFA Jaína was nowhere to be found after her falling out with the alliance in cataclysm so we did lose her. Whatever happens to Silvanas now maybe only temporary. Although we technically lost Silvanas in BFA not Shadowlands.

But another way to look at it is this. In storytelling there is this "rule" for drama and gravitas to "kill your darlings". They killed characters they knew were beloved and important. Exactly to get the visceral feeling you are getting right now. That means no one gives a crap about alliance lol