[TV] The Wheel of Time

[rhorle]

I disagree with the logic that using a cheap sword that's less intricate and doesn't come close to matching the description of the sword in the books is acceptable.

I have said it would have been nice to be closer to the books. So it is weird for you to continually interject your own arguments just to state you disagree with your own inventions. Just because a show has $10 million an episode in the budget doesn't mean they have to spend excessively. They still have to budget and find ways to cut costs. Spending less in some areas, like a sword that is rarely unsheathed, means they could spend more in other areas.

It plays a significant role in the books. Not the show. It has already been established that the show is not a faithful adaptation so continuing to apply "faithful adaptation logic" to things is silly at this point.

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At this point it's safe to say spoilers can't matter since it no longer resembles any plot points in the book.

The rule has always been if you're discussing things from books that haven't happened in a TV series based on that book, it is considered a spoiler to be tagged.

Discussing book events can still spoil the books. If it is something that happened on the show it doesn't need a spoiler tag because the show would have spoiled it already. Since the show diverges it means that a lot of stuff referenced from the books should be spoiler tagged.

[Surfd]

Just because a show has $10 million an episode in the budget doesn't mean they have to spend excessively. They still have to budget and find ways to cut costs. Spending less in some areas, like a sword that is rarely unsheathed, means they could spend more in other areas.

And yet you just got done telling us that they spent a million bucks building a complete fake village that they then burned down which literally appears in like 1 episode. We are supposed to believe both that they have the budget to literally light shitloads of money on fire for dramatic effect AND that they somehow couldn't "afford" to make a properly book accurate sword prop (they would have needed to prop out probably HUNDREDS of weapons for the show, so I HIGHLY doubt making one specific prop match a specific description would have been even a drop in the bucket) because "they need to cut corners somewhere to save money due to budget constraints". There is no way both of those things make sense in any sane context.

The choice to go with the shit they went with was intentional, and I guarantee you it had nothing to do with "cost" by any stretch of the imagination.

[rhorle]

And yet you just got done telling us that they spent a million bucks building a complete fake village that they then burned down which literally appears in like 1 episode. We are supposed to believe both that they have the budget to literally light shitloads of money on fire for dramatic effect AND that they somehow couldn't "afford" to make a properly book accurate sword prop (they would have needed to prop out probably HUNDREDS of weapons for the show, so I HIGHLY doubt making one specific prop match a specific description would have been even a drop in the bucket) because "they need to cut corners somewhere to save money due to budget constraints". There is no way both of those things make sense in any sane context.

Did you literally just argue that they wouldn't have to cut the budget for X after over spending on Y? Lol. Have you ever had to budget in your life? Cost is a very reasonable possibility for why they went so cheap, or "Bog standard" with the weapon. And of course the choice was intentional. Every choice they made was intentional.

[Majestic12]

I don't want to spoil anything but... this finale is awful. The changes they made for the battle don't make sense whatsoever.

[Surfd]

Did you literally just argue that they wouldn't have to cut the budget for X after over spending on Y? Lol. Have you ever had to budget in your life? Cost is a very reasonable possibility for why they went so cheap, or "Bog standard" with the weapon. And of course the choice was intentional. Every choice they made was intentional.

"We just lit multiple millions of dollars on literal fire for dramatic effect, guess we better tighten up the budget by saving fifteen to twenty bucks on our multi thousand dollar weapons budget by going with a generic katana prop for arguably one of the most important weapons in the first two books instead of asking the propmaster to see if he can make something a little more book accurate".

You do realize how insane that sounds, right.

Oh, right, I forgot that book accuracy is literally meaningless since nothing matters any more because "adaption" and "reasons".

[rhorle]

You do realize how literally insane that sounds, right.

So if they spent X amount of budget to do Y you think it is possible they have an infinite amount left over for Z? Or that they might have cut Z to spend on Y. Any numbers you bring up is just you making up stuff. You don't have any idea of their budget or the cost it took for them to create Rands sword or anything else. If you want to be taken serious with your "guarantees" at least provide some proof rather then pulling numbers out of thin air because of what you feel it should be.

[Surfd]

If you want to be taken serious with your "guarantees" at least provide some proof rather then pulling numbers out of thin air because of what you feel it should be.

So you are just going to straight up ignore the reply I made on the previous page eh. Not exactly surprising.

Let me summarize it again for you then:
- I can buy a custom made, hand crafted, blacksmith forged katana made with premium materials for about 240 bucks American. That's 240 American AFTER RETAIL MARKUP. Remove the sales markup and it's likely less than 200 bucks.
- Logic dictates that a prop sword (ie, a fake sword made with the most basic materials possible to save costs), even a "display type" piece meant to look good, should not cost anything even CLOSE to what a real sword does.
- Basic extrapolation from that point should tell you that if you are spending more than a 100 bucks to make a "decent" quality prop, you are probably spending too much.
- That means that the difference between a "good" prop and a "cheap" one shouldn't be more than 20-30 bucks.

Taking all that into account, there is absolutely no logical reason why a show with a multimillion dollar budget that they clearly have demonstrated they are willing to piss away for effect is going to cut corners on one of the more important weapons in the series by using a cheap prop just to save what literally amounts to pennies out of their expenses.

[jdbond]

They wasted useless money on CGI. Episode 1 likely had cost 2-3 times more than most episodes. And to what end? CGI looked cheap, magic looked without any logic and it came at cost of character development. These people went out of their way to "dazzle" and this is what came out. I mean look at the last scene. Amalisa only channels lightning (don't ask how she learned it since she didn't have power to do it on her own) and wham, everything is dead. Even in books, lightning wasn't that effective. You can't kill all of them like this! Some of them will reach you for sure! Only time we have scene lightning as a force is when Rand, with aid of external power, was going all out and even then, many survived.

And yet, in Aes Sedai battle against Logain's forces, NO ONE CHANNELED LIGHTNING! Rafe did say that episode 8 will shock you. I guess he was referring to all those lightning bolts. And all this came at cost of "cheap LARP level" weapons.

[rhorle]

So you are just going to straight up ignore the reply I made on the previous page eh. Not exactly surprising.

I didn't ask for a random page with a weapon you can buy. I am asking you for proof of their numbers. Your random company is also suspect because you said you could get them to do a free custom upgrade for by being nice to them. What company does that for free? You are also ignoring the game of thrones link I posted where it isn't as simple as just creating one cheap blade and "perfection".

The sword also isn't all that important. The heron marks on it are what is important to the story because of prophecy in the books that I don't believe have been talked about on the show. So if they don't believe the blade is important to the story they are telling why wouldn't they give it a lower priority in the budget?

[Katchii]

- I can buy a custom made, hand crafted, blacksmith forged katana made with premium materials for about 240 bucks American. That's 240 American AFTER RETAIL MARKUP. Remove the sales markup and it's likely less than 200 bucks.

I don't disagree with the rest of your logic, but this here is....HIGHLY questionable. You can barely find a piece of shit stainless steel, cookie cutter katana with decent fittings that costs $200, let alone an actual custom made, blacksmith forged katana using premium materials.

https://katanasforsale.com/product/custom-katana/

This is the cheapest site I can find that uses actual steel and is not a super custom job from a specific blacksmith or supplier and allows some customization. Even then, the blade alone is over $200 (for just plain steel, the actual PREMIUM steel that's traditionally used for katanas is over $2000), with an actual custom job costing significantly more than that.

Where are you finding custom made, blacksmith forged, ACTUAL katanas for $240?

[Biomega]

Doesn't matter if it's $200 or $240. Doesn't matter if it's $2,000. Those are not amounts that would make a dent in a budget like that, and there's about fifteen hundred places they would save on first before an actual plot-central prop. Which means it didn't come down to money, it came down to them making a terrible creative decision by deeming that toy good enough.

[Surfd]

Your random company is also suspect because you said you could get them to do a free custom upgrade for by being nice to them.

Nothing "suspect" about it:
- The page lists "free blade engraving" as part of their sales offer. Not entirely sure what is involved in that, as the details aren't explicitly enumerated, but I would assume they could just as easily engrave a heron mark on it as a name or anything else.
- They also specifically offer "customized" swords, with the image on the relevant page indicating that they have a range of decorative elements to chose from.
- Stands to fair reason that if you are ordering a custom made "customizable" blade from them, there would be no reason they couldn't make it with a Heron decoration on the hilt (assuming they have something like that in their range of available options) instead of the Dragon used in the promotional picture at no additional cost provided both decorations are roughly the same price in terms of materials costs. Like, literally all it would take is asking them "Do you have a heron hilt decoration instead of a Dragon as a customization option".
- So no, I wasn't talking about "free custom upgrades", I was specifically talking about choosing the properties of a customizable element on something intended to be customized that way if it was available.

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Where are you finding custom made, blacksmith forged, ACTUAL katanas for $240?

The one I was using for my estimate was this website, where their more basic sword with a High Carbon steel blade was retailing at 300 Canadian (roughly 240 American at current exchange rate). They also offered a more high spec Damascus Steel Blade for 400.

Seemed like a reasonable range for something that is properly crafted but not a masterwork or the like.

[rhorle]

Nothing "suspect" about it:

The part I was referencing was where you originally stated you could get them to change the dragon to a heron for free by asking nicely. You edited it to "minimum charge" at some point after your initial post.

[Xath]

Of course, and I'm personally on board with that (cutting Baerlon is for example understandable to me) but Verin specifically has the biggest "mind = kaboom" moment in the entire series for me, so she's ABSOLUTELY someone they want to keep around.

The second someone claims Verin is a minor throw away character you know they didn't read the book and should just stick them on ignore.

[Aphrel]

As a book fan the final episode was the nail in the coffin for me.
If they manage to make a climatic book ending like that this fucking anti-climatic then theres no hope.

The most dissapointing part is the "man bad, woman good" is really driven home. In the books Rand Uses the stored power at the eye of the world and kills one forsaken (what the fuck are their plan with Aginor now?) and wound another, then proceed to travel to Tarwins gap and destroy the trolloc army there.

They took away both the defeat of Aginor and the destruction of the trolloc army from him. And wtf how does Moirane have an access key to choedan kal which she gives to him?! Where did she find it and how does she even know what it is?! Thats basically the equivalent of a Nuclear bomb in this universe.

Also, wtf are they thinking with the decision to change how they find the Horn of Valere? Instead of moirane uncovering it at the eye of the world after rand saved them all are you gonna tell me that a country that has been fighting for survival against the trolloc armies for 3000 years has been sitting on it all this time and never used it?

AHAHHAHAAHAHA

Its like if the Nigthwatch in Game of Thrones had a horde of dragons hidden away from the start but didnt want to use it because "reasons"...

And what was the thinking when introducing the Seanchan? like... Fuck this empty beach in particular? Do they always go around making bigass tsunami waves at uninhabited places for no reason? ah well, rip one adolescent girl i guess? Victory for the empress Ramadan, may she live forever!

[rhorle]

The second someone claims Verin is a minor throw away character you know they didn't read the book and should just stick them on ignore.

Who said they were a minor throw away character?

[Surfd]

The second someone claims Verin is a minor throw away character you know they didn't read the book and should just stick them on ignore.

"but she is clearly not important to "the adaption" because the galaxy brains running the show can just mash her reveal into some other character's space in the script and it will totally be just as earth shatteringly significant so nothing will be lost"

Knowing Rafe, they will somehow try to stick it into Moraines character arc or something in season 4 (assuming they ever get that far).

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Also, wtf are they thinking with the decision to change how they find the Horn of Valere? Instead of moirane uncovering it at the eye of the world after rand saved them all are you gonna tell me that a country that has been fighting for survival against the trolloc armies for 3000 years has been sitting on it all this time and never used it?

This bit is just absolutely mindboggling to anyone familiar with the Horn and it's importance in the books. Like, the Horn is a freaking World Class Legendary Artifact. It's the Holy Grail cranked up to 11. Legend and myth says that the simple act of FINDING it is a literal sign that the Last Battle is coming, and coming soon. There have been multiple "legendary" quests about people hunting for the Horn over the centuries since it was "lost". The idea that it was just sitting practically in the Shinearian's laps for generations and nobody knew is absolutely moronic.

That would be like King Arthur sending all the knights of the Round Table on a grand epic quest all across England and Europe to find the Grail while the king of Scotland giggles like a little girl because the Grail has been sitting on a shelf in his bathroom the whole time and nobody from Arthur's court ever noticed despite the fact that they regularly visit Scotland.......

[Rennadrel]

Bigger question; will those who seem to be "Rafesworn" such as rhorl or kenn disappear after the show receives its already overdue cancellation notice?

It's a shame it got funded for a second season. But hopefully Amazon studios management takes a long hard look at the ratings and reviews before deciding to renew. Netflix shitcanned their Cowboy Bebop adaptation a few days after the first season released because it was shit and got absolutely demolished by reviewers and the audience.

[Katchii]

The one I was using for my estimate was this website, where their more basic sword with a High Carbon steel blade was retailing at 300 Canadian (roughly 240 American at current exchange rate). They also offered a more high spec Damascus Steel Blade for 400.

Seemed like a reasonable range for something that is properly crafted but not a masterwork or the like.

That almost sounds to good to be true.

Materials alone would cost that much. But, it's seems legit based on reviews. /shrug

Thank you for sharing.

[Shadowferal]

That's...yea.. That's a nice sword. And at that price...a really nice sword.