How much has Shadowlands fundamently changed Arthas's story?

[angrywithmygod]

So First post here but really wanted to get some peoples opinions on how much Shadowlands has screwed with Arthas even though he isn't really present in the story.

We have to go all the way back to Warcraft 3 Human campaign to see where the shadowlands story starts to affect Arthas. It also starts to makes me start to question how much agency Arthas actually had as they have given so many other characters the same excuses.

- Kelthuzad Arguably one of the best villains of Warcraft only to be killed off in a raid. He first comes up in the campaign quite early as a protagonist to Arthas. He is seen leading the cult of the damned and is spreading the plague through lordearon. Shadowlands however has changed this story however as apparently Kelthuzad was always aware of the Jailer and been working for him. He also comes up again the undead campaign as Arthas is tasked with bringing him back from the dead at the behest of the lich king(again possibly the jailer) which lead to the invasion of Silvermoon.

-Malganis Next up is is the dreadlord who seem to target Arthas and torture him by actively taunting the young prince and putting him in no win situations like stratholme. Even Uther admits in the latest cinematic they released that inaction damns them all yet that was his solution for stratholme and the scourge when they first showed up. Malganis drove the prince into a corner and isolated him from his closest friends. Again Shadowlands has rephrased the as the Dreadlords are Also agents of the Jailer and working for him. These are the same beings that managed to corrupted a Titan and seemed to have been directed by the Jailer to target Arthas.

-Frostmourne was a Runeblade initially created by the legion now we are told it was also created by the Jailer which had apparently took Arthas Soul as its first Victim when he picked it up. We have seen the new "kingsmourne" completely dominated Anduin to the point he had no free will of his own. So how much Influence did the Jailer have over Arthas, if both the mourne blades were created to be similar make did Arthas have any control or free will? Also considering how much the whole "split soul" thing the Blade inflicted trauma on both Sylvanas and Uther to taint them into falling to the Dark side, so did it also affect Arthas the same?

-Helm of Domination we know based on the death knight campaign quests in Legion and the story in shadowlands that the Helm had a dark presence that affected the wearer and it needed someone with a strong will to resist. Even Bolvar during the legion campaign was being affected by this and was committing acts of cruelty by sending the DK to slaughter the dragon flight and raising Alliance and horde champions. Again how much free will did arthas have during Wrath when he wore the hlem?

So with all these factors coming into play and even in Wrath we have evidence that there was a small portion of Arthas's Humanity holding out and preventing the Jailer from unleashing the scourge or simply destroying the helm as Sylvanas had. Is Arthas now a sympathetic charcter who simply had everything stacked against him as he was targeted by a being far beyond his understanding and turned into a tool for the Jailer?

Seems like if Blizzard manage to leave Arthas out of the story but failed utterly at not changing his story.

[Wyattbw09]

I don't think this changes anything about Arthas. Other then the fact he got screwed out of a chance at redemption in the afterlife by going to Revendreth.

It's not clear that he was targeting by the Jailer. It's not clear at all that the Dreadlords were acting in the Jailer's best interest when they created the helm or pushed Arthas. They worked for the Legion, and did the Legion's bidding. If that happened to benefit the Jailer that was great if not that was too bad because they had to do what the Legion told them to do. Arthas for better or worse still made all the same choices himself.

[shoc]

Arthas is one of the rare stories in WoW that has a coherent beginning, middle and an end. To fuck with it would be sacrilege.

[cparle87]

I don't think this changes anything about Arthas. Other then the fact he got screwed out of a chance at redemption in the afterlife by going to Revendreth.

It's not clear that he was targeting by the Jailer. It's not clear at all that the Dreadlords were acting in the Jailer's best interest when they created the helm or pushed Arthas. They worked for the Legion, and did the Legion's bidding. If that happened to benefit the Jailer that was great if not that was too bad because they had to do what the Legion told them to do. Arthas for better or worse still made all the same choices himself.

We have to consider whether he's responsible for most of what he did. Can a person's soul be held responsible for things their body does while their soul is trapped inside a sword unable to have a say in things? If not then just looking at Arthas' history the worst thing he did would be the Culling. Would that be enough to earn Revendreth?

[Khaza-R]

I don't think they really ruined Arthas's character per say, solely because they haven't touched it yet. But will have to see the Anduin SoFO cutscene before this is confirmed.

I think the larger issue is that these rEcoNtExtUaLiZaTiOnS were wholly unnecessary. The WarCraft 3 story made sense and was completely fine on its own. Ner'zhul being created by the Legion and sabotaging them as revenge made perfect sense. Ner'zhul wanting Arthas because he saw him as the key to his freedom made perfect sense. Now inserting the Jailer into these events messes with the motivations of these characters and for no pay-off.

Because nothing about the Jailer makes the original story more interesting. So you logically have to ask, why even change it in the first place?

[Maljinwo]

Arthas, the most recognizable villain in Warcraft is now someone's failed attempt at a minion

[Myradin]

Arthas, the most recognizable villain in Warcraft is now someone's failed attempt at a minion

He was always a failed attempt at a minion. Just the legion's before.

Arthas is one of the rare stories in WoW that has a coherent beginning, middle and an end. To fuck with it would be sacrilege.

I'd say the ending was a bit confusing due to them killing his humanity twice but in the end his humanity was still there holding back the scourge.

[ArenaDk]

Arthas, the most recognizable villain in Warcraft is now someone's failed attempt at a minion

Arthas always was a minor player in the whole sceme of wow. He was always human level threat while in wc3 we already saw cosmic level threats

[shimerra]

Arthas always was a minor player in the whole sceme of wow. He was always human level threat while in wc3 we already saw cosmic level threats

Major faction leader/involvement in multiple battles with threats spawned by those cosmic things and then the basically second i command to another one of those cosmic threats(nerzhul lich king) leading a rebellion against the other cosmic threat (Burning legion) and then in WoW it being confirmed that Arthas was the dominant personality of the lich king in an entire expansion devoted to his endeavors is a minor character according to you?

God knows what you consider a main player.

Arthas, the most recognizable villain in Warcraft is now someone's failed attempt at a minion

Not that I find the jailer's whole I was secretly behind everything schtick appealing, but I don't think resisting/ignoring the will of a major cosmic force that was so threatening his peers had to seal him away in the most horrible place their realm and possibly all realms to do what you want to do is quite the put down you think it is.

[shoc]

Arthas is the most significant contribution to Warcraft lore and I'll fight anyone who thinks otherwise. No other character comes even close to the cultural impact made by Lich King.

[kranur]

Didn't really change anything about Arthas but did fuck up a lot of the logic ... KT and dreadlords both being sided with the Jailer but KT working behind their back in WC3 ... control of the scourge must be maintained or else ... Sylvanas breaks the helm and nothing runs rampant

[Eazy]

I did replay Wc3:RoC and there's Kel'Thuzad saying that he don't trust dreadlords.

Funny thing is that Kel'Thuzad and Dreadlords were pawns in the hand of Jailer.

[Soikona]

Didn't really change anything about Arthas but did fuck up a lot of the logic ... KT and dreadlords both being sided with the Jailer but KT working behind their back in WC3 ... control of the scourge must be maintained or else ... Sylvanas breaks the helm and nothing runs rampant

Nothing rampant yet, could be some time before they reach a civil place. I dunno how long, lore wise, we have been in shadowlands for.

[Khaza-R]

I did replay Wc3:RoC and there's Kel'Thuzad saying that he don't trust dreadlords.

Funny thing is that Kel'Thuzad and Dreadlords were pawns in the hand of Jailer.

I mean, his entire personality was basically him being fanatically devoted to Arthas and the Lich King.

I don't know why they would make such a stupid change when they could of just as easily added some new reason why he was compelled to side with the Jailer post demise of the LK.

[ArenaDk]

Major faction leader/involvement in multiple battles with threats spawned by those cosmic things and then the basically second i command to another one of those cosmic threats(nerzhul lich king) leading a rebellion against the other cosmic threat (Burning legion) and then in WoW it being confirmed that Arthas was the dominant personality of the lich king in an entire expansion devoted to his endeavors is a minor character according to you?

God knows what you consider a main player.



Not that I find the jailer's whole I was secretly behind everything schtick appealing, but I don't think resisting/ignoring the will of a major cosmic force that was so threatening his peers had to seal him away in the most horrible place their realm and possibly all realms to do what you want to do is quite the put down you think it is.

Where was Nerzul a cosmic threat ?

And Arthas was such a threat that alliance and horde had time to fight an old god, help in the nexus war , fight each other , have a tournament , help the locals with unreleated problems and than dropped by the lichking and stomped him without any mayor help. No titan relict, no dragons no wildgods, just mortals walking in and killing him.

And later we get to know that deathwing was about to wake up, which basically would have ended arthas world invasion in a heartbeat.

Arthas was a human level threat and nothing more, the moment any mayor lore character would have cared about him he would have been removed from the story.

[Makorus]

I mean, Arthas being somehow the pet of the Burning legion was always incredibly stupid.

[Khaza-R]

Where was Nerzul a cosmic threat ?

And Arthas was such a threat that alliance and horde had time to fight an old god, help in the nexus war , fight each other , have a tournament , help the locals with unreleated problems and than dropped by the lichking and stomped him without any mayor help. No titan relict, no dragons no wildgods, just mortals walking in and killing him.

And later we get to know that deathwing was about to wake up, which basically would have ended arthas world invasion in a heartbeat.

Arthas was a human level threat and nothing more, the moment any mayor lore character would have cared about him he would have been removed from the story.

To be fair, a lot of that is just conflating game design and mechanics with lore. The same logic can be applied to the infinite legion or the inescapable Maw as well.

[Super Dickmann]

Only in so far as it skullfucked Kel'thuzad. Past that, the story goes at great lengths to emphasize both that he's still culpable and that both he and Ner'zhul resisted the Bald Man's influence. Whether Dreadlords made the helm and Frostmourne on behalf of KJ or the Jailer has no bearing on the rest of his story. The worst damage to Arthas was in Rise of the Lich King.

[Aresk]

Ultimately little changed. Kel'thuzad cites that he preteneded to serve false masters (implying his loyalty to Ner'zhul and Arthas was not as it seemed), which is the most egregious change made. Mal'ganis didn't really change other than having an underlying motivation beyond what we knew of, which didn't really change any of his previous interactions that we were privy to. Frostmourne was always said to be cursed, and the idea that it claimed Arthas' soul first goes back to WotLK, if I'm not mistaken. Similarly, the Helm of Domination changed little in Shadowlands, with the only real clarification being the Jailer was the influence felt through the Helm.

Given all of this, Arthas' trajectory largely remains untouched. While Kel'thuzad may not have been a loyal friend, that doesn't change Arthas' perceptions that he was. While Mal'ganis may have been serving Denathrius ultimately, it doesn't change any of his actions regarding grooming Arthas to be an agent of Ner'zhul. While the blade may have taken Arthas' soul, that doesn't change the fact he was warned that it was a cursed blade and still chose to pick it up, stating his willingness to pay any price (which by definition would include paying his soul) to have his revenge. The note on the Helm doesn't even affect his WC3 persona, since he didn't don it until the end of TFT, and there really isn't anything to his WotLK characterization beyond some overconfident, taunting villain who ultimately loses even when he thinks he's on the cusp of victory.

Arthas, the most recognizable villain in Warcraft is now someone's failed attempt at a minion

That's literally the central conceit of Illidan's backstory, and people still hold him up as one of Warcraft's great characters. I don't see why Arthas being the same makes him any better or worse.

[angrywithmygod]

Ultimately little changed. Kel'thuzad cites that he preteneded to serve false masters (implying his loyalty to Ner'zhul and Arthas was not as it seemed), which is the most egregious change made. Mal'ganis didn't really change other than having an underlying motivation beyond what we knew of, which didn't really change any of his previous interactions that we were privy to. Frostmourne was always said to be cursed, and the idea that it claimed Arthas' soul first goes back to WotLK, if I'm not mistaken. Similarly, the Helm of Domination changed little in Shadowlands, with the only real clarification being the Jailer was the influence felt through the Helm.

Given all of this, Arthas' trajectory largely remains untouched. While Kel'thuzad may not have been a loyal friend, that doesn't change Arthas' perceptions that he was. While Mal'ganis may have been serving Denathrius ultimately, it doesn't change any of his actions regarding grooming Arthas to be an agent of Ner'zhul. While the blade may have taken Arthas' soul, that doesn't change the fact he was warned that it was a cursed blade and still chose to pick it up, stating his willingness to pay any price (which by definition would include paying his soul) to have his revenge. The note on the Helm doesn't even affect his WC3 persona, since he didn't don it until the end of TFT, and there really isn't anything to his WotLK characterization beyond some overconfident, taunting villain who ultimately loses even when he thinks he's on the cusp of victory.



That's literally the central conceit of Illidan's backstory, and people still hold him up as one of Warcraft's great characters. I don't see why Arthas being the same makes him any better or worse.

The issue lies in that everything in his story tied to his downfall is now tied back to the jailer. its has fundamentally changed how much agency he had during the course of his downfall. We have seen the same effects on other characters like Anduin, Bolvar, Uther and Sylvanas only suffering one of these effects and having fallen to the darkside only to have those actions waived off as not their fault due to the jailers influence. Yet Arthas who suffered the effects of all these factors is still a villain?