Should WoW adopt a tougher stance on Toxicity in-game?

[Garymorilix]

You would be dead wrong. I have worked in sales and performance-centric roles before. The rare times I saw toxic behaviour in the work place, it was reported and swiftly dealt with.

This is not about weak people doing weak jobs. This is about what we know about mental health that we didn't know before. The name calling, demeaning, the berating, it does considerable harm, and most companies now (admittedly not out of the kindness of their heart, but fear of law suits) are adapting to it. Maybe decades ago your assessment would be accurate, but not any longer.

Would I?
Or maybe you were talked about behind your back then?
Take a guess.

Good intentions do not give you the right to silence me, mate.
Especially when what you do directly affects me in some way. You're gonna get called out.
I am from eastern europe, I can assure you, you're gonna get called out and called out hard.

It is all about being weak, unable to handle raw conflict because you were sheltered.

And online it is entirely avoidable also, you can ignore and leave. You can't do that irl.
So where is the problem here?

[NineSpine]

Would I?
Or maybe you were talked about behind your back then?
Take a guess.

Good intentions do not give you the right to silence me, mate.
Especially when what you do directly affects me in some way. You're gonna get called out.
I am from eastern europe, I can assure you, you're gonna get called out and called out hard.

It is all about being weak, unable to handle raw conflict because you were sheltered.

And online it is entirely avoidable also, you can ignore and leave. You can't do that irl.
So where is the problem here?

Can you go into the street and scream racial slurs at children without having issues? No, so why do you expect to be able to do that online?

[Garymorilix]

Can you go into the street and scream racial slurs at children without having issues? No, so why do you expect to be able to do that online?

There is no correlation between the two, mate.

Tell me how many times you were called racial slurs walking around in Oribos, mate.
When you are receiving heat, it's because you did something, not just walked around in Oribos.
For example if that kid was throwing footballs at moving cars, I think they could expect heat. Not racial slurs necessarily, ofc (idk why people always wanna play the racism card it's boring).
Also, idk why racial slurs is where you draw the line. I could say much worse things to anyone without using a racial slur.

[NineSpine]

There is no correlation between the two, mate.

Tell me how many times you were called racial slurs walking around in Oribos, mate.
When you are receiving heat, it's because you did something, not just walked around in Oribos.
For example if that kid was throwing footballs at moving cars, I think they could expect heat. Not racial slurs necessarily, ofc (idk why people always wanna play the racism card it's boring).
Also, idk why racial slurs is where you draw the line. I could say much worse things to anyone without using a racial slur.

My wife quit WoW after the third rape threat. She didn't even make it to max level.

I have seen racial slurs, ableist slurs, sexist slurs, etc. many times. The way people act in WoW would get you thrown out of most places, if not arrested. This snowflake idea that if you can't be a complete piece of shit and face no consequences then you are being oppressed is ridiculous.

WoW is rated for players 12 and older. The things people regularly say to others in game, with no idea how old they are, would legitimately get the police called on you IRL. If you saw a 12 year old make a mistake in a public park and someone started screaming "RETARD! LEARN TO PLAY YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT!" someone would call 9/11 and say that a disturbed and dangerous person is in the park. The problem is that we have created an environment where those same disturbed, mentally sick people think that they have found an online space where their actions shouldn't have consequences.

[Garymorilix]

My wife quit WoW after the third rape threat. She didn't even make it to max level.

I have seen racial slurs, ableist slurs, sexist slurs, etc. many times. The way people act in WoW would get you thrown out of most places, if not arrested. This snowflake idea that if you can't be a complete piece of shit and face no consequences then you are being oppressed is ridiculous.

WoW is rated for players 12 and older. The things people regularly say to others in game, with no idea how old they are, would legitimately get the police called on you IRL. If you saw a 12 year old make a mistake in a public park and started screaming "RETARD! LEARN TO PLAY YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT!" someone would call 9/11 and say that a disturbed and dangerous person is in the park. The problem is that we have created an environment where those same disturbed, mentally sick people think that they have found an online space where their actions shouldn't have consequences.

People would call 911 on people for saying that and police would take it seriously?
Geez, soceity is indeed down the drain.
What if a 12y old said it to a 12y old? How do you know how old anyone is, especially in-game? Do we just blanket treat everyone as a 12y old?

For the rape thing, ignore and report, this is actually the kind of language that Blizzard DOES ban.
Whatever anyone says to you in WoW is literally impossible for them to carry out in real life.
Not that I can imagine how anyone could receive 3 separate rape threats during leveling while I haven't even been asked what my gender was since WotLK.
So this would be another extreme outlier, ignore, report, move on.

[Triceron]

you can't really enforce good behaviour.

To be frank, much of the bad behavior and toxicity stems from how people perceive others being unable to 'play the game properly' and having a reason to lash out for the sake of lashing out. A part of this is personal expectations that can never be fully satisfied, another the convenience of anonymity. Toxicity will always be a thing so long as we all maintain our anonymity.

Any automated 'judgement' system is abusable since the system is never going to be a fair one if it's somehow automated in any way. And if we're talking about them actually hiring people to enforce the rules, then that's just a waste of resources and manpower since they've already been making staff cuts since even before this whole pandemic happened.

[NineSpine]

People would call 911 on people for saying that and police would take it seriously?
Geez, soceity is indeed down the drain.
What if a 12y old said it to a 12y old? How do you know how old anyone is, especially in-game? Do we just blanket treat everyone as a 12y old?

If a a grown person said that to a 12 year old, yes someone would call the police.

If a 12 year old was doing that and wouldn't stop, they'd be asked to leave activities or places as well. Do you think that if we are in a school and one twelve year old is screaming at and belittling another one, the teachers stand there and nobody does anything because... freedom? What are you even talking about? This is the exact kind of terminally online the-rules-dont-apply-to-me sociopathy I'm talking about.

If it's something you wouldn't be allowed to say to a mentally handicapped 12 year old in real life, it should be permanently bannable in the game. Period.

For the rape thing, ignore and report, this is actually the kind of language that Blizzard DOES ban.

We kept track. Guess how many of them got banned. Zero.

Whatever anyone says to you in WoW is literally impossible for them to carry out in real life.

My wife uses a very specific screen name, and one person used that to find her and start harassing her on social media. He sent her our home address.

]Not that I can imagine how anyone could receive 3 separate rape threats during leveling while I haven't even been asked what my gender was since WotLK.
So this would be another extreme outlier, ignore, report, move on.

It's not an outlier. "I don't experience it so it doesn't happen" isn't how grown ups deal with the real world.

[|Dexter|]

People would call 911 on people for saying that and police would take it seriously?
Geez, soceity is indeed down the drain.
What if a 12y old said it to a 12y old? How do you know how old anyone is, especially in-game? Do we just blanket treat everyone as a 12y old?

For the rape thing, ignore and report, this is actually the kind of language that Blizzard DOES ban.
Whatever anyone says to you in WoW is literally impossible for them to carry out in real life.
Not that I can imagine how anyone could receive 3 separate rape threats during leveling while I haven't even been asked what my gender was since WotLK.
So this would be another extreme outlier, ignore, report, move on.

To be fair: It's rated T for teens, Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB (MAC, PC)

That last part is really important!

[NineSpine]

you can't really enforce good behaviour.

To be frank, much of the bad behavior and toxicity stems from how people perceive others being unable to 'play the game properly' and having a reason to lash out for the sake of lashing out. A part of this is personal expectations that can never be fully satisfied, another the convenience of anonymity. Toxicity will always be a thing so long as we all maintain our anonymity.

Any automated 'judgement' system is abusable since the system is never going to be a fair one if it's somehow automated in any way. And if we're talking about them actually hiring people to enforce the rules, then that's just a waste of resources and manpower since they've already been making staff cuts since even before this whole pandemic happened.

They aren't anonymous. Blizzard knows exactly who they are and controls their account.

[Denso]

My wife quit WoW after the third rape threat. She didn't even make it to max level.

I have seen racial slurs, ableist slurs, sexist slurs, etc. many times. The way people act in WoW would get you thrown out of most places, if not arrested. This snowflake idea that if you can't be a complete piece of shit and face no consequences then you are being oppressed is ridiculous.

WoW is rated for players 12 and older. The things people regularly say to others in game, with no idea how old they are, would legitimately get the police called on you IRL. If you saw a 12 year old make a mistake in a public park and started screaming "RETARD! LEARN TO PLAY YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT!" someone would call 9/11 and say that a disturbed and dangerous person is in the park. The problem is that we have created an environment where those same disturbed, mentally sick people think that they have found an online space where their actions shouldn't have consequences.

What? No, you'd chuckle. What country is this? Oh, 9/11. I get it now.

[NineSpine]

What? No, you'd chuckle. What country is this? Oh, 9/11. I get it now.

That was supposed to be "someone started screaming", not the 12 year old screaming. If you saw a 40 year old man berating a random child like that, you'd call the police hopefully.

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The fact that some people are trying sooooo hard to make excuses for why calling children retards and screaming at them might be acceptable in real life, as a way to justify doing so online, is truly telling about the type of people drawn to wow.

[Garymorilix]

If a a grown person said that to a 12 year old, yes someone would call the police.

If a 12 year old was doing that and wouldn't stop, they'd be asked to leave activities or places as well. Do you think that if we are in a school and one twelve year old is screaming at and belittling another one, the teachers stand there and nobody does anything because... freedom? What are you even talking about? This is the exact kind of terminally online the-rules-dont-apply-to-me sociopathy I'm talking about.

If it's something you wouldn't be allowed to say to a mentally handicapped 12 year old in real life, it should be permanently bannable in the game. Period.



We kept track. Guess how many of them got banned. Zero.



My wife uses a very specific screen name, and one person used that to find her and start harassing her on social media. He sent her our home address.



It's not an outlier. "I don't experience it so it doesn't happen" isn't how grown ups deal with the real world.

You are just coming up with new scenarios to prove a point.
Mate, location, activity, participants, and many other details make this more and more and more hard to evaluate.

I could tell you if any conflict is actually just banter or a serious issue when it comes to real life examples.
But you just keep inventing all these scenarios that have nothing to do with each other.
And no, when one 12y old is screaming at another one there probably isn't a teacher standing there in the first place. But that is besides the point. I have no interest in arguing with your made-up scenarios any longer.

A mentally handicapped 12 y old would freak out from a stranger saying 'Hi'.
Idk where this over-protection is coming from, mate, but you gotta let loose a little.

Kept track of what exactly.
There ain't a full story here. Go ahead and threaten someone in-game right now with that (the exact words) and see how fast you'll be actioned.

Why is it Blizzard's responsibility to track and action real-life stalkers?
Turn to the police.

Do you honestly think this happens to every 2 out of 3 players?

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What? No, you'd chuckle. What country is this? Oh, 9/11. I get it now.

Yea, it's crazy out there.

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They aren't anonymous. Blizzard knows exactly who they are and controls their account.

No, they don't.

While the more stand up citizens like you probably type in real-life info during account creation, you can literally type in anything.
Guess what most people do.

[Triceron]

They aren't anonymous. Blizzard knows exactly who they are and controls their account.

It's their anonymity to other players that makes it so easy to not feel accountable for their actions.


And whether Blizzard controls their account or not, the fear or consequence doesn't really stop people from being toxic. Look at other games that have strict enforcement. There's always gonna be people who still act toxic, or find alternative ways to game the system by doing passive-aggressive toxic things like (un)intentionally fucking up the run or 'accidentally' ninjaing some loot or having their buddies vote-kick from party, etc.

That's why there's a squelch button in the game. It's the most practical way to deal with the verbal side of things. Player attitude is something else completely, because there's no way to really enforce anyone to be on their best behaviour. And I doubt Blizzard will go the route of banning, since these are still legitimate paying customers that Blizzard would be risking alienating. WoW isn't exactly in the top position right now where they can afford massive banwaves to their playerbase.

We'd have to consider what's in it for Blizzard to even make this happen if it were. Otherwise, the system would already be here.

[LordVargK]

No. But it should make it harder to play with random players. Guilds and communities solve the toxicity issue but are completely ignored by Blizzard.

[Otaka]

Why? The Ignore feature is a thing. If you're that sensitive that you get your feelings hurt online, you should probably stay away from the internet.

The ignore feature is very limited and i dont know if you know but dungeons are cross-realm so you end up playing with completely new players pretty much everytime. So even if you ignore everyone youll always face new toxic players... it will never end. Something like that cannot be fixed on individual level.

And its not about sensitivity, its about basic behaviour which is rare online... the reason why you say something like that is probably because youre drowned in toxicity and dont know a life without it so you think the only way is the "grow a thicker skin"-attitude.
Even you arent immune to toxicity, you can say anything you want about how it doesnt affect you but it does... you just dont realize it.

Its in human nature to be oblivious to what youre missing... only experiencing something better will help you understand how much better life can be without that one thing youre so used to. And we are slaves to our habits which makes it very hard for anyone to change... ask any smoker or alcoholic. :P

I think kids these days have a word for situations where people are reluctant to change: Copium.

[Sluvs]

IMHO, they should take a stronger stance with this sort of behavior.

It makes the game very hostile to new players. It makes the entire community completely unsufferable and honestly I truly believe that part of why WoW is where it is now its because its IMMENSE toxicity.

Comparing to FFXIV, the community is incredibly more welcoming and I crossed with like, 2 toxic players in almost 2 years of playing it. Of course it is a way more casual gaming experience. But still.

There is a caveat though, it cannot be automated at all. It needs GMs and a better consumer support. So basically, a pipe dream with the current game direction.

[NineSpine]

It's their anonymity to other players that makes it so easy to not feel accountable for their actions.


And whether Blizzard controls their account or not, the fear or consequence doesn't really stop people from being toxic. Look at other games that have strict enforcement. There's always gonna be people who still act toxic, or find alternative ways to game the system by doing passive-aggressive toxic things like (un)intentionally fucking up the run or 'accidentally' ninjaing some loot or having their buddies vote-kick from party, etc.

That's why there's a squelch button in the game. It's the most practical way to deal with the verbal side of things. Player attitude is something else completely, because there's no way to really enforce anyone to be on their best behaviour. And I doubt Blizzard will go the route of banning, since these are still legitimate paying customers that Blizzard would be risking alienating. WoW isn't exactly in the top position right now where they can afford massive banwaves to their playerbase.

We'd have to consider what's in it for Blizzard to even make this happen if it were. Otherwise, the system would already be here.

There are other games that don’t have this problem. The defense that this is some mystical unsolvable problem is just not in line with reality.

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You are just coming up with new scenarios to prove a point.
Mate, location, activity, participants, and many other details make this more and more and more hard to evaluate.

I could tell you if any conflict is actually just banter or a serious issue when it comes to real life examples.
But you just keep inventing all these scenarios that have nothing to do with each other.
And no, when one 12y old is screaming at another one there probably isn't a teacher standing there in the first place. But that is besides the point. I have no interest in arguing with your made-up scenarios any longer.

A mentally handicapped 12 y old would freak out from a stranger saying 'Hi'.
Idk where this over-protection is coming from, mate, but you gotta let loose a little.

Kept track of what exactly.
There ain't a full story here. Go ahead and threaten someone in-game right now with that (the exact words) and see how fast you'll be actioned.

Why is it Blizzard's responsibility to track and action real-life stalkers?
Turn to the police.

Do you honestly think this happens to every 2 out of 3 players?

- - - Updated - - -



Yea, it's crazy out there.

- - - Updated - - -



No, they don't.

While the more stand up citizens like you probably type in real-life info during account creation, you can literally type in anything.
Guess what most people do.

If all you’ve got is that it is “overprotective” to think that we shouldn’t let strangers verbally abuse children, I think I’ll just take my win here and move on.

[Garymorilix]

There are other games that don’t have this problem. The defense that this is some mystical unsolvable problem is just not in line with reality.

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If all you’ve got is that it is “overprotective” to think that we shouldn’t let strangers verbally abuse children, I think I’ll just take my win here and move on.

Yes, because that is the only thing we are talking about here.

GG, mate, you're promoted to Iron III now.

[Tyris Flare]

There are other games that don’t have this problem. The defense that this is some mystical unsolvable problem is just not in line with reality

Didn't you just say this:
I don't experience it so it doesn't happen" isn't how grown ups deal with the real world.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I've faced toxicity in a lot of games, I'm sure plenty of people have. WoW is no exception and it's probably worse than average, but still nothing compared to FPS games and LoL (the most popular PC games by a wide margin).

I'm not sure I would trust any company to hire competent people to actually police this stuff though. They are low-paying miserable jobs and even the major tech companies with infinite money suck at it.

[Garymorilix]

The ignore feature is very limited and i dont know if you know but dungeons are cross-realm so you end up playing with completely new players pretty much everytime. So even if you ignore everyone youll always face new toxic players... it will never end. Something like that cannot be fixed on individual level.

And its not about sensitivity, its about basic behaviour which is rare online... the reason why you say something like that is probably because youre drowned in toxicity and dont know a life without it so you think the only way is the "grow a thicker skin"-attitude.
Even you arent immune to toxicity, you can say anything you want about how it doesnt affect you but it does... you just dont realize it.

Its in human nature to be oblivious to what youre missing... only experiencing something better will help you understand how much better life can be without that one thing youre so used to. And we are slaves to our habits which makes it very hard for anyone to change... ask any smoker or alcoholic. :P

I think kids these days have a word for situations where people are reluctant to change: Copium.

Don't mix habits and actually physically addictive substances in the same argument. It makes the argument weaker.
"Oh bro, I stopped biting my nails easy, you can get off of heroin easy."

It is in fact much easier for you to ignore every single person, before they say a word, if you're that sensitive than for Blizzard to start policing people manually and ban them before they even say anything bad.