When did WoW convince itself Raiding is the only thing that's important?

[Sucralose]

100%. The gearing path is so short for mid game players. It’s over in a week.

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The game absolutely forces that on you. If you don’t want to do high end content, the game pummels you with gear and progress so fast that the game is over in a few days.

The trick is to somehow convince daily quests they can't have instant raid gear to make mid game viable again.

[NineSpine]

The trick is to somehow convince daily quests they can't have instant raid gear to make mid game viable again.

I think a better solution is to flatten the gear curve, get rid of so many unnecessary difficulty settings, and just give people ways to continually upgrade gear until it is BiS or at least close.

[Sucralose]

I think a better solution is to flatten the gear curve, get rid of so many unnecessary difficulty settings, and just give people ways to continually upgrade gear until it is BiS or at least close.

So...how does a mid game survive in that scenario? You completely invalidate their gearing path.

[NineSpine]

So...how does a mid game survive in that scenario? You completely invalidate their gearing path.

Because you could keep playing and upgrading your gear.

[Soon-TM]

I think a better solution is to flatten the gear curve, get rid of so many unnecessary difficulty settings, and just give people ways to continually upgrade gear until it is BiS or at least close.

Commendable as it may be, I simply can't picture the self-styled MMOC "pros" learning to live with their gear being only a few ilvl above that of the unwashed, filthy casual masses (cosmetics aside).

[NineSpine]

Commendable as it may be, I simply can't picture the self-styled MMOC "pros" learning to live with their gear being only a few ilvl above that of the unwashed, filthy casual masses (cosmetics aside).

That's the exact problem isn't it? Blizzard keeps making the game for these lunatics.

[RoKPaNda]

100%. The gearing path is so short for mid game players. It’s over in a week.

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The game absolutely forces that on you. If you don’t want to do high end content, the game pummels you with gear and progress so fast that the game is over in a few days.

Stop, lol, you're not outgearing your desired content level in a week unless your desired content level is like LFR or something and if that's the case you're probably not doing the no-lifing required to invalidate even that.

Are you aware of how small of a percentage of the playerbase the Mythic raiding community is? Particularly when the game isn't at the end of the content cycle? If the game forced that on you, the % would be much higher. The overwhelmingly vast majority of players don't raid Mythic and are generally happy with whatever their end game content is. The average player has zero interest in Mythic raiding and isn't pressured into doing it. You're not even pressured into doing Heroic even though that's generally faceroll. Please, I implore you, before you take some random outrage streamer's view of things actually think about it rationally and understand why it's not a rational take. Your average WoW player doesn't give a singular fuck about Mythic raiding, they might not even know that it exists, let alone be pressured into doing it.

You or I might invalidate a normal or Heroic raider's progression path very quickly because our goal is higher than that and we have a guild that will help us get there, funnel gear to us, carry us through M+, etc, but for someone who actually sets out with normal or heroic raiding as their goal it's going to take them substantially longer. And even for me, with one of the top guilds in my region at my back, it's going to take significantly longer than "a few days."

[NineSpine]

Stop, lol, you're not outgearing your desired content level in a week unless your desired content level is like LFR or something and if that's the case you're probably not doing the no-lifing required to invalidate even that.

Are you aware of how small of a percentage of the playerbase the Mythic raiding community is? Particularly when the game isn't at the end of the content cycle? If the game forced that on you, the % would be much higher. The overwhelmingly vast majority of players don't raid Mythic and are generally happy with whatever their end game content is. The average player has zero interest in Mythic raiding and isn't pressured into doing it. You're not even pressured into doing Heroic even though that's generally faceroll. Please, I implore you, before you take some random outrage streamer's view of things actually think about it rationally and understand why it's not a rational take. Your average WoW player doesn't give a singular fuck about Mythic raiding, they might not even know that it exists, let alone be pressured into doing it.

You or I might invalidate a normal or Heroic raider's progression path very quickly because our goal is higher than that and we have a guild that will help us get there, funnel gear to us, carry us through M+, etc, but for someone who actually sets out with normal or heroic raiding as their goal it's going to take them substantially longer. And even for me, with one of the top guilds in my region at my back, it's going to take significantly longer than "a few days."

You severely underestimate how fast you finish gearing if you aren't going to do M+, organized raids, or rated pvp.

When you run out of progress to make so quickly, you are pressured to move into the next level of content.

[RoKPaNda]

You severely underestimate how fast you finish gearing if you aren't going to do M+, organized raids, or rated pvp.

When you run out of progress to make so quickly, you are pressured to move into the next level of content.

So now your argument is that if you don't actually do any content outside of the initial leveling content static dungeons you don't have anything to do? Is there a game where that ISN'T the case?

If you set out to just be an LFR hero you can successfully do that for months without running out of content. Same if you choose to cap out at normal or heroic. You're never actually pressured into doing more difficult content. That's a choice that you make based on what you're comfortable with and whether you're satisfied with the difficulty of your content that you are running. Nothing in this game forces or even encourages you to do anything more than that. Even if you're running Mythic you're eventually going to run out of upgrades to chase. Did you want gear upgrades for pet battles or what?

[potis]

Stop, lol, you're not outgearing your desired content level in a week unless your desired content level is like LFR or something and if that's the case you're probably not doing the no-lifing required to invalidate even that.

Dont take him seriously, took him 3 months to do his first M0 and he calls that "Outgearing too fast", the stuff you are supposed to do the first day the expansion launches, he is just trolling at this point and repeats how FFXIV is the best game ever and will now quote me about the irrelevant savage raids and WoW world first raiders that goofed around for 1 month in his shit game.

[Soon-TM]

Dont take him seriously, took him 3 months to do his first M0 and he calls that "Outgearing too fast", the stuff you are supposed to do the first day the expansion launches, he is just trolling at this point and repeats how FFXIV is the best game ever and will now quote me about the irrelevant savage raids and WoW world first raiders that goofed around for 1 month in his shit game.

I mean, strawmen are fun and all, but they don't really make your point any stronger.

[NineSpine]

=RoKPaNda;53547031]So now your argument is that if you don't actually do any content outside of the initial leveling content static dungeons you don't have anything to do? Is there a game where that ISN'T the case?

FF14, Guild Wars 2, SWTOR, Destiny 2.... I mean I can keep going...

If you set out to just be an LFR hero you can successfully do that for months without running out of content. Same if you choose to cap out at normal or heroic. You're never actually pressured into doing more difficult content. That's a choice that you make based on what you're comfortable with and whether you're satisfied with the difficulty of your content that you are running. Nothing in this game forces or even encourages you to do anything more than that. Even if you're running Mythic you're eventually going to run out of upgrades to chase. Did you want gear upgrades for pet battles or what?

LFR drops 213. That's a whopping 3 ilvls higher than regular mythic dungeons. Once you have mythic dungeon gear, which takes very little time especially if you supplement with a world boss piece and a handful of other easy things to grab quickly like a legendary, world quests are going to drop higher gear than LFR.

Again, you wildly underestimate how fast the gearing is.

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Dont take him seriously, took him 3 months to do his first M0 and he calls that "Outgearing too fast", the stuff you are supposed to do the first day the expansion launches, he is just trolling at this point and repeats how FFXIV is the best game ever and will now quote me about the irrelevant savage raids and WoW world first raiders that goofed around for 1 month in his shit game.

For the eightieth time, you think my argument is that gearing is too fast because I geared too slow. It is nonsensical on its face.

[potis]

I mean, strawmen are fun and all, but they don't really make your point any stronger.

Well, it is his thing the last 2 months i respond to anything, he cant accept his experience isnt the correct one no matter how much he tries to make it, that isnt my problem.

Does the game have problems ? Yes it does, but only if you cant accept its not what it is and you are trying to play Skyrim in it.

Has the game changed into a seasonal game if you dont push content? Yes it has.

How is that bad exactly? How is it better to repeat the same 3 dungeons for 400 days to farm irrelevant gear thats 2 patches behind, better than the new system, especially if you call yourself "Casual" and you want to pretend you have a life, to feel superior for not having pixels, and calling others names for having pixels, like it even fucking matters who has the pixels.

[Sucralose]

Because you could keep playing and upgrading your gear.

See that won't ever happen though people will just farm then get caught in difficulty above their skill level.

[NineSpine]

See that won't ever happen though people will just farm then get caught in difficulty above their skill level.

Not if they can do the content they are comfortable with and continue making progress.

This is also known as "How damn near every other similar game works".

[Tyris Flare]

A big unmentioned part of this is that they need to come up with better nerfing mechanisms over time. Some of these conversation feel like 2006 where your guild would reclear something and see a notable dps increase because of the gear they got in that run. in 2022, anyone outside of Hall of Fame guilds who puts in a reasonable amount of effort is effectively capped or near capped on gear long before they even get to the progression boss.

Like think about Sludgefist, who was basically the Patchwerk of Nathria. For HoF guilds, reclears and stuff really mattered just like in the old days, because they were on him in the first month. By the time most guilds who killed him did kill him, gear wasn't even a factor. They had probably already been extending their lockout for weeks if not months at that point.

imo that's a big issue that never really comes up here. People talk all the time about mythic raiders and gear yet never mention that most mid-tier + guilds end up extending non-stop for literally months, never even rekilling many of the bosses because it's not worth the time. No one is playing for "gear" for a huge portion of the patch.

[Soon-TM]

See that won't ever happen though people will just farm then get caught in difficulty above their skill level.

That's OK. It would be their skill, not their gear which is cockblocking their progression - but at least they would have a carrot to chase. Something akin to Korthia, but (hopefully) less grindy and less monotonous.

[Sucralose]

That's OK. It would be their skill, not their gear which is cockblocking their progression - but at least they would have a carrot to chase. Something akin to Korthia, but (hopefully) less grindy and less monotonous.

I can't see how that is better then having to the two go hand in hand rather then annoying everyone else in the group as they flounder and fail.

[Soon-TM]

I can't see how that is better then having to the two go hand in hand rather then annoying everyone else in the group as they flounder and fail.

One of those venues gives the less skilled players something to strive for, the other doesn't. Guess what happens in the latter case.

[Sucralose]

One of those venues gives the less skilled players something to strive for, the other doesn't. Guess what happens in the latter case.

I have grown weary of being told I should concern myself with people playing a video game they don't enjoy and should actively destroy said game in hopes they might force themselves to play longer.

I would rather a less insane idea if you could please.