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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanaku View Post
    What Would Bring You Back to WoW?
    MoP class design. This is all I want.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Not really. People generally just don’t like putting the time into raiding (finding a guild, scheduling play time, farming gold or mats for consumables, repeating the same bosses over and over again to incrementally gear out the group, climb the gear ladder to have the numbers necessary to balance out the increases to boss health and damage). The core of raiding is very very simple. Design is super linear and basically comes down to have X amount of heals to allow everyone to do Y amount of damage. No think-outside-the-box solutions, just learn the strat and execute until it works. Being a mythic vs normal raider is a lot more a difference in mentality than skill, and certainly has nothing to do with the ability to understand complex problem solving.
    Again, if it was just a matter of pressing buttons in the right order, the number of active raiders who can get these titles would be higher. The fact that higher tier guilds can go in at far lower ilvls and clear heroic means that yes, there absolutely IS a skill element to the game.

    Hell, you wouldn't even see the wide disparity you do in raid logs if this were the case.

  3. #123
    It would take multiple things to bring me back. Here's my list.

    1) No more borrowed power. If a new progression system is added, it's a system that is carried forward in perpetuity. That should limit the number of progression systems they deign to add. Keep it simple. I want to level up, have my kit, and then focus on gearing. I don't want to level "progression system 6 alpha" until a new patch adds "progression system 7 beta" and then have to level that, just for it to all be flushed down the toilet when a new xpac launches. It's a waste of time and resources constantly developing, tweaking, and then throwing these systems away.

    2) Multiple paths to the same player power potential. I stopped raiding in MoP. I don't even do LFR more than once for the story because it's largely a pain in the ass and the gear is worthless. No matter how "easy" people say LFR is, it's not easy enough to get through with a bunch of strangers without wipes in many cases. That's too much of a headache for me to put up with number one. And the fact that the gear is almost never an upgrade make LFR a waste of my time past the first story run. Bottom line on LFR? It isn't "easy mode" enough and has little incentive to engage with reward-wise. I need paths to high ilvl gear that don't require me to raid, run high mythic+ keys, or engage in a soul crushing grind that inevitable still leaves my ilvl in second-class citizen territory (looking at you Korthia research).

    I miss the days of running heroic dungeons for valor that I could spend at a vendor for high ilvl gear. I'd like to see valor go back to be an earnable currency from multiple sources. Heroic & mythic dungeons, all levels of raiding, daily quests/world quests/callings, all of which reward the same currency at an amount commensurate with the time and/or difficulty involved in the activity. A weekly cap on said currency would also be welcome so I have an endpoint to look forward to. FFXIV does this exceptionally well with their tomestone currency and vendors. I can have the ilvl gear as raiders for the most part, even if I take longer to get it than they do but still within the life of that tier so I "catch up" to the raiders before the next tier comes out and with time enough to enjoy the fruits of my labors.

    3) Relevant craftable gear without the bullshit. No bop mats. Craftedtem level at the top end useable as entry level raid gear for that tier with a slot or two of bop gear equal to top end raid gear and new crafted gear options added each tier. FFXIV again does this exceptionally well. Keep the current "let me pick my stats" options. While this has been done minimally in SL, I'd like to see tertiary stats addable via gems and enchants more liberally. I'd also like to see the return of profession combat perks and for sockets to be addable by crafters and not something you have to rely on rng for or grinded currencies.

    4) More account wide unlocks. All rep related unlocks should be account wide, and if rep itself can't be made account wide, then all rep vendor rewards should be boa. More stuff like threads of fate and the "I've heard this story before" options for alts after you've done the main story on your main.

    5) More character customization options for every race. This was the highlight of SL for me and I'd love to see our character customization continue to become more robust.

    6) Focus more on the player's character rather than "big name" NPC's doing all the important stuff or hogging most of the cutscene screen time. I'd like to see more cutscenes that feature our character doing stuff, preferably uniquely class & spec based stuff. So if there's a cutscene that showcases some combat between my character and an enemy, then I won't just swing my weapon (whatever that might be). Instead I'd use skill animations appropriate to my class and spec. If I'm an arcane mage, my character would do an arcane blast or an arcane explosion, not whack it with my staff which is ridiculous.

    7) No more FOMO bullshit. If you add something to the game, you keep it in the game. Arbitrarily removing things after a time is a transparent attempt at manipulating me into staying subbed and I'd personally rather give you the finger than play into your bullshit false-scarcity narrative. Content is king. Removing content of any kind is asinine when you can't even keep up with player consumption of content.

    8) Bring back removed content. One of my greatest wishes for WoW is to see all of the classic zones/dungeons/raids content copied from classic to modern wow and accessible via Keepers of Time/Chromie. I'd love to be able to level characters through the classic content with modern day gameplay. I'd love to while away days or weeks doing the old content to get previously removed transmogs and such.

    9) New dungeons added with content patches. I miss the days when we would see new dungeons added with content patches. Now we're lucky if we get a single mega-dungeon in an expansion, and it's still no queueable until well after it's relevancy as waned.

    10) Remember the words of Ghostcrawler. "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite." When content is too challenging, too grindy, or just too much of a pain in the ass to engage with, then it may as well not exist for myself and players like me. And if you're relying on that content to be the meat and potatoes of an expansion or content patch, well I won't have much reason to stay subbed. I'm not looking to be challenged. I am looking to be entertained. And while some people find challenges entertaining, I do not. And if you don't want my money, that's fine. But if you do want my money, then you're going to have to design the game with me in mind.

    Ultimately I want more things to do, that I want to do, that feel worth doing, but don't feel obligatory. Tall order I know.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2022-02-28 at 06:18 AM.

  4. #124
    I'd bring back the amazing people i've played with throughout the years, but stopped playing eventually after life caught up with them or stopped playing for whatever reason.

    It's been a long, long road, and even though i still enjoy the game immensely, it just isn't the same without the gang.

    As far as content or features go, i'm not sure i miss anything (as long as raids and dungeons are present, i'm happy), but it would probably be old school legendaries, regardless of how unbalanced they were, or how unfair rng could be (TF, Glaives, that sort).

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Again, if it was just a matter of pressing buttons in the right order, the number of active raiders who can get these titles would be higher. The fact that higher tier guilds can go in at far lower ilvls and clear heroic means that yes, there absolutely IS a skill element to the game.

    Hell, you wouldn't even see the wide disparity you do in raid logs if this were the case.
    You’re overvaluing skill and undervaluing desire. This entire game is just pressing buttons in the right combination. It’s not hard or complicated, and learning the strats can be done by anyone who can read. The reason more people don’t play at the higher difficulties is because they simply don’t care. Most people have no desire to do any research to get better at games. That doesn’t mean they’re incapable of it.

  6. #126
    They could start by either removing the monthly fee or the expansion box price. One or the other would be a huge boon to get players back. I know 4 people in my friend group who do not play wow anymore other than on private servers who would consider playing again if they didn't have to invest in a $60 Box price every single expansion, or they pay the box price only and have unlimited play time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    You’re overvaluing skill and undervaluing desire. This entire game is just pressing buttons in the right combination. It’s not hard or complicated, and learning the strats can be done by anyone who can read. The reason more people don’t play at the higher difficulties is because they simply don’t care. Most people have no desire to do any research to get better at games. That doesn’t mean they’re incapable of it.
    World of Warcraft is and always has been a casual game anyway it's not hard by any stretch of the meaning. They don't force the game to be hard because they know people don't want a game that's constantly punishing them If unless the game is built like that by design like the Souls games. But when you make a decision to play a game like that you know what you're getting into.
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  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Lytrwths View Post
    A time machine.
    It's this. Peak WoW as in Vanilla, TBC, Wrath when subscription numbers were at their highest and WoW was a cultural phenomenon was very much of it's time. The designers, the players, the game have all moved on and nothing will ever capture that feeling for those who have left.

    I had a lot of fun coming back for Warlords, Legion, and BFA but it was a different experience from my first stint which was heavily guild based.

    I think the game is almost too big now, in terms of areas, but suffers because 95% of the world is pretty much meaningless.

  8. #128
    Simple gearing and M+ not being mandatory to high end raiding.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby451 View Post
    So you just want to stand in your garrison and bitch about how the game has nothing to do, gotcha. This expansion has literally not had any "daily chores" you had to do. Maw, Korthia, emissarys. All 100% skippable with little to no effect on player power. So your basically complaining because you had to spend 30 minutes in torghast for a few weeks until you crafted your legendary. Why even bother playing the game if your going to get pissy about being "forced" to play something for such a trivial amount of time? If that is truly upsetting to you, just quit the game already. Your clearly just looking for a reason to be mad and coming up with any excuse you can think of.
    The game didn't have half as much busy work during the earlier expansions, but there was still something to always log on to do. The rampant gold inflation has made the simple task of fishing for your weekly raid food pretty pointless, and leveling professions is something you do once at the beginning of the expansion rather then ignore.

    The game is much more goal orientated now, in earlier days it was far more organic - hell, I once remember around level 30 joining a guild with my girlfriend and we spent 2 hours every weekend in a hall in Stormwind for guild meetings. That kind of stuff just doesn't happen any more.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    World of Warcraft is and always has been a casual game anyway it's not hard by any stretch of the meaning. They don't force the game to be hard because they know people don't want a game that's constantly punishing them If unless the game is built like that by design like the Souls games. But when you make a decision to play a game like that you know what you're getting into.
    Well, I’m sure if WoW’s original box had advertised with “Explore wondrous worlds! Make new friends! If you want to actually get cool gear and enjoy the game to the fullest extent be sure to schedule at least 6 hours across two evenings every week to kill the same handful of bosses with a group of people you barely know and might not even like as well as extra time on the side to browse 3rd party sites for necessary addons, guides, and strats!” it would have attracted far fewer people.

  11. #131
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    40 man raids! Best part of Classic!

    And Reforging!

    And undo the level squish and scaling zones!

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Well, I’m sure if WoW’s original box had advertised with “Explore wondrous worlds! Make new friends! If you want to actually get cool gear and enjoy the game to the fullest extent be sure to schedule at least 6 hours across two evenings every week to kill the same handful of bosses with a group of people you barely know and might not even like as well as extra time on the side to browse 3rd party sites for necessary addons, guides, and strats!” it would have attracted far fewer people.
    I think the reason WoW worked so well back then because they made people part of the development cycle, not really many mmo's did that before WoW with PTR's and what not.
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  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    You’re overvaluing skill and undervaluing desire. This entire game is just pressing buttons in the right combination. It’s not hard or complicated, and learning the strats can be done by anyone who can read. The reason more people don’t play at the higher difficulties is because they simply don’t care. Most people have no desire to do any research to get better at games. That doesn’t mean they’re incapable of it.
    Though there is some truth in what you are saying. It's not always the case. I have done enough raid content to tell you. Some people are just not able to do the content. It's not from a lack of trying or interest. They are just not able to preform under the pressure. You may think it's not a lot of pressure, but it adds up when you have to meet a skill check (regardless of how low you may think) while playing with 9-39 other people.

    As for people not having the desire, sure. Those people generally don't do that content. The ones that are doing it, fail. Repeatedly, till the content is nerfed enough for them to clear it. Meaning, they don't have the skill required. Just as much as they other guy is overvaluing skill, I greatly believe you undervalue it too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    They could start by either removing the monthly fee or the expansion box price. One or the other would be a huge boon to get players back. I know 4 people in my friend group who do not play wow anymore other than on private servers who would consider playing again if they didn't have to invest in a $60 Box price every single expansion, or they pay the box price only and have unlimited play time.
    I see this as a option thrown around a lot. But, I don't think you and everyone else saying it really have thought out the consequences of the game going free to play. They are already trying to milk you of money every chance they can. If you remove that sub fee, they now have an excuse to flood their market with so much crap and paywalls that it would actively kill the game. There is a reason most MMO's don't go anywhere meaningful once they go F2P. Even Swtor despite it's model being okayish, is still flooded with a cashshop of gear, pets, mounts, battlepass nonsense and so on.

    Free 2 Play would do more harm than good. For every person to come back and play, they would lose hundreds more.

  14. #134
    Friends having a renewed interest, game possibly going F2P, game having plenty of casual systems instead of FOMO and gating that requires a major time sink.

    There's so many other F2P games out there and my backlog is pretty big that I have little to no reason to play WoW anyways, so even with the above changes I might not even come back.


    Really wish they made RTS and singleplayer focused content like they did way back when. It was just more enjoyable that way. Or even just come out with a new game that people can make maps with.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Trust me, following guides and pushing the same handful of buttons in the correct sequence over and over doesn’t make you any less mediocre than anyone else. WoW isn’t a complex game, it’s just one built on repetition and working within a very simplistic set of parameters. We aren’t even talking chess vs checkers here, WoW is more akin to something like whack-a-mole.

    Unfortunately, it has created a small chunk of players who find validation in being good at a particular video game when the vast majority of people simply play games for entertainment. Yeah yeah you can say doing challenging content is about entertainment for you as well, but as soon as you start suggesting that other people shouldn’t enjoy a game if they don’t try hard enough to “be the best they can be” you out yourself as one of those gamers who have wrapped too much of their self worth into an essentially worthless endeavor. It’s certainly not unique to WoW, I’m sure there were plenty of kids back in the day who thought being really good at pinball meant they were truly hot shit compared to everyone playing the other games at the arcade.

    Maybe you’re right and it would be best for WoW to strictly cater to those e-peen driven gamers and abandon all the stuff that attracts people who just want to play a game for fun. Then you could all circle jerk each other about how good you are at a game that almost no one cares about.
    1. I have never claimed that WoW is "hard". I am claiming that it is competitive. Competition exists at all skill levels in any human endeavour.

    2. You, as many other here, seem to be unable to understand that people of all skill levels find it fun to compete. That sense of fun isn't solely to be found in "the best".
    There is nothing wrong as such to not want to be good at something, but people that don't want to put in an effort are logically shunned by those that want to.

    3. On a general level I find it quite interesting that we find so many people here that refuse to do their best and demand to be treated in the same way as those that do.
    In real life normal people shun those who are lazy and don't respect the time of others.
    Nobody wants to hire such a person, nobody wants to socialize with such a person.
    And that starts at quite a young age. Even children can distinguish between someone who is bad at something, but is trying and fighting, and someone who doesn't even try.
    Guess which of those two is most likely to have someone to play with...
    And guess which of those two who gets respect and who doesn't.

  16. #136
    Dot snapshotting, MoP demonology, affliction and destro. And of course a good expansion.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanaku View Post
    I'm sure this has been asked before but I didn't see any recent posts about this in my, admittedly, brief search of the forums.
    For those who are no longer playing the game, what would bring you back to the game? What would you like to see in perhaps a new expansion?

    For me I would like them to focus on making the classes fun again and do away with the convoluted temporary power systems. I feel like those systems only serve as a weird grind that makes it less desirable to play alts or even other specs.

    So I think it would be cool to get 4th specs for the non hero classes and just work on class/spec identities and make them fun to play. Take a look at some balancing. Why have Disc priests and Holy Paladins been so dominant for M+ for so many expansions now? (because they provide both the most dps AND the damage reduction Healing CDs) just as an example. I think 4th specs would also allow for other classes to do roles they normally wouldn't be able to do.
    I know a lot of people are against the 4th spec thing but I think it would be cool.

    Secondly, just focus on a system that is fun primarily and design it with the intent that it could stick around as a permanent feature in the game. Torghast had so much potential as an alternate way to play the game. Just turn the powers up to 11, offer more build paths (it really needed like 3 times the amount of powers just to start). I could go on an entire rant about this but I will leave it at that
    In short: a proper power character solo progression, that will NEVER ever happen, so I’ll happily continue playing my beloved Diablo 3.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    1. I have never claimed that WoW is "hard". I am claiming that it is competitive. Competition exists at all skill levels in any human endeavour.

    2. You, as many other here, seem to be unable to understand that people of all skill levels find it fun to compete. That sense of fun isn't solely to be found in "the best".
    There is nothing wrong as such to not want to be good at something, but people that don't want to put in an effort are logically shunned by those that want to.

    3. On a general level I find it quite interesting that we find so many people here that refuse to do their best and demand to be treated in the same way as those that do.
    In real life normal people shun those who are lazy and don't respect the time of others.
    Nobody wants to hire such a person, nobody wants to socialize with such a person.
    And that starts at quite a young age. Even children can distinguish between someone who is bad at something, but is trying and fighting, and someone who doesn't even try.
    Guess which of those two is most likely to have someone to play with...
    And guess which of those two who gets respect and who doesn't.
    You can’t compare a game to real life. The game is an “escape from real life” activity, it has NOT to be competitive by design to be fun.

    Also, apart from specific works, you don’t usually compete against anyone.

    Also people are tired to have to rely on others strangers to succeed, that’s for example why I left the game, probably after 17 years I realized that party games are not for me anymore. It’s sad because I love the world “per se”, but there’s no point in playing the endgame in solo, so time to say goodbye.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    3. On a general level I find it quite interesting that we find so many people here that refuse to do their best and demand to be treated in the same way as those that do.
    In real life normal people shun those who are lazy and don't respect the time of others.
    Nobody wants to hire such a person, nobody wants to socialize with such a person.
    And that starts at quite a young age. Even children can distinguish between someone who is bad at something, but is trying and fighting, and someone who doesn't even try.
    Guess which of those two is most likely to have someone to play with...
    And guess which of those two who gets respect and who doesn't.
    This is the toxic mentality that seems to unfortunately pervade this game. The desire to play a game for fun rather than be fully optimized all the time isn't a sign of laziness. It's how most normal people approach games. You make it seem like people just wanting to play a game for fun are there to actively grief you. I play a variety of games with a group of very intelligent, very successful people and depending on the game some of them just turn up to have some casual, low stress entertainment. All of them are capable of excelling at any of these games but since these are just games and we're not playing professionally with anything real at stake we're not assholes who think any of them don't deserve to have as much fun playing as we do. Everyone sits down wanting to win, but just because someone didn't read up on the optimized strategy to do so doesn't mean they don't deserve play or win.

    I certainly understand that some people like putting a bit more time and effort into their gaming. I'm that guy. The difference is that I recognize that this shouldn't be expected of anyone else and that a good game can offer challenge while also being easily accessible to typical gamers. Back in vanilla I ditched the guild with my IRL friends to play with the second best guild on the server (raiding AQ40 and Naxx on my mage mostly just to get Judgement handed to my alt pally), then in TBC I was the asshole who scolded people for not bringing their A game to raid nights. Fortunately I matured out of that phase. It's not a good way to go about gaming. It's not respectful and it's certainly not admirable.

    If you're playing a game where your enjoyment is contingent on how other people are playing and that isn't worth your time if you're not winning to the fullest extent possible then that's on you, not on the people who are just there to enjoy themselves. If you think dictating to other people how they should play and enjoy a game makes you more worthy or respect then you're dead wrong. You're in the minority, but have unfortunately surrounded yourself with a small group of like minded gamers and now you think it's normal to expect excellence from anyone else who plays your games.

  19. #139
    Wotlk Classic cause I'm sure retail will be fucked up for at least another expansion since they will use the same crappy systems they used in SL.
    Last edited by Schmilblick; 2022-01-15 at 05:11 PM.

  20. #140
    removal of factions

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