Seriously - Are People Actually Fine with SL's Vault System?

[Groundwalker]

No, for the casual player base the vault system is a horrible design.

[kenn9530]

Less than an hour for what? 4 x 15's? Maybe for a top team with mythic gear. But, those people care more about pushing, so it doesn't affect them.

Normal people take half an hour to 45m to clear a mythic+. 4 of those is equivalent to the time it takes to clear the raid on farm.

If it takes an hour to clear a mythic plus gear is the least of your worries, and you only need to do the max if you want more chances at loot so you dont need to do 10 m+ each week or clear the raid.

- - - Updated - - -

No, for the casual player base the vault system is a horrible design.

Its not it rewards you for the current level of content you are doing so if you are not skilled you dont get the highest rewards, do you want to be rewarded max level items and not do at least some work obtaining them.

[Sucralose]

I think keystones are just an outdated design idea. They need to move M+ design forward for sure.

Ideally they just do away with keystones and let people pick the difficulty they want. Make the keystone spire thing just pop up a dial and then your good to go.

[Argorwal]

Ideally they just do away with keystones and let people pick the difficulty they want. Make the keystone spire thing just pop up a dial and then your good to go.

I feel the only “negative” with this is every keystone under +15 is going to be dead.

Why would anyone bother with lower?

Especially since mythic+ isn’t designed with brick wall bosses.

I guess maybe that is ok? I don’t know. It seems like it makes the already massively most easy source of 252 gear even easier.

[Sucralose]

I feel the only “negative” with this is every keystone under +15 is going to be dead.

Why would anyone bother with lower?

Especially since mythic+ isn’t designed with brick wall bosses.

I guess maybe that is ok? I don’t know. It seems like it makes the already massively most easy source of 252 gear even easier.

I honestly think they should just buff heroic and mythic and make the mythic + system kick in after gear more or less making it into CM mode myself.

[Tziva]

I feel the only “negative” with this is every keystone under +15 is going to be dead.

Why would anyone bother with lower?

I mean, the same reason they do now: to gear up new characters who aren't appropriate for 15s, to knock out a quest real quick, or to farm quick valor if they aren't capped. I don't see why that would change.

[Baleful]

Just having a single choice between item X or Y is better than any chest we ever had objectively.

A raid takes like 2-3 hours to clear. 10 mythic+ are gonna take you north of 6 hours to get. Also, pugging is a nightmare in mythic+ cause one person leaving means a wasted run. A bad run can take upwards of 40m, etc.

While this is true, time commitment on progress raiding is waaaaaaaay longer than the one needed for a +15, You can learn how to do any key in max 4-5 runs (except for high keys that are not needed for vault), while every raid tier you will be sitting at hundreds (if not thousands) of pulls before the raid is in an state that you can faceroll it like you do with 15s.

My guild has cleared 10/10 mythic for 11 weeks without seing a single painsmith weapon on 2 DH 1 enhance 1 monk 1 rogue.
that is 11 weeks so 11 painsmith kills + 3 vaults chests x 5 players.

How is this a Vault problem? When Legion was in the NH patch (master loot was still a thing and we didn't had raid vault), my guild did 22 reclears and the caster trinket from anomaly never dropped, even with bonus rolls we got ONE (we were running about 5 casters) Thats 4 items + 5 bonus rolls every week for 22 weeks = 198 chances for the trinket to appear, and it dropped once. This has nothing to do with the Vault, it is gear RNG wich always existed.

And remember: back then even getting the item wasn't even enough because you ALSO needed the titanforge version (gem too if it was possible to roll on that item). It's much easier now: you just need the drop.

[Amariw]

Titanforging sucked, i'm not sad to see it gone.

The fact m+ vault loot is inferior to raid loot is something you didn't really comment on if i read right, but i don't like it. I want m+ players to feel rewarded even if its the same ilvl, especially since they're capped at once a week whereas raiders have multiple bosses, meaning mythic raiders get it much faster. I also feel like it gives m+ pushers who are also mythic raiders an advantage that doesn't feel great over m+ pushers who don't raid, whereas if it was like in Legion/BFA mythic raiders who wanted to push m+ could just use m+ loot.

Admittedly, ussualy some raid pieces are great for m+ regardless of ilevel due to specific weapons or trinkets, but changing that would require m+ specific scaling which might be more trouble then its worth.

Regular end-of-run rewards being nerfed to below heroic ilvl in SL kinda makes sense. Without it heroic raiding loot is kinda dead in the water as m+ loot is so much easier to aquire, and with heroic raid loot being capped to weekly boss kills, end of run chests are still a good way to gear faster, or to get gear if you dont wanna raid.

If your biggest issue is wanting Titanforging back so you could run m+ endlessly for a tiny upgrade, i think you're in a minority who enjoyed that, and truthfully no offense but i can't say i support your wishes.

[Makabreska]

Yes, vastly superior to Seals. Greater choice and rewards each type of endgame content.

[RobertMugabe]

This is more of a question than a rant at this point, as I'm 9 months separated from the game as of writing this. This is also more in regards to how it pertains to M+ for the most part.

But are people really fine with how it currently is? I know people who exclusively play WoW can lose touch with fundamental design as they are sucked into its specific analytic/statistical design, and as they opt to no longer play other games since WoW demands such a heavy time investment, being what it is. I've seen little to no complaints regarding this, so I'm taking the default assumption that nobody in the WoW community cares or in fact actually likes the current setup.

Specifically, I'm talking about the fact that SL's Vault System massively changed how loot is rewarded in M+ dungeons from BfA to now. We went from a system where you could continuously run M+ dungeons for chance at great loot due to Titanforging and M+ loot being competitive to raid loot, to the current system that we have, where running M+ solely exists to add another slot to your Great Vault for increased loot choice quality.

My main issue with this is that I really like killing monsters and watching them drop quality loot. Currently, this is no longer possible with M+ as the mode does not reward competitive loot, but only serves a function of being an aggregator for your Vault rewards.

I would personally like to go back to enjoying seeing competitive loot drop in the dungeons themselves. Removing or redesigning the Vault System, however you go about it is required.

I haven't touched M+ since 9.1, but if I am not mistaken you can now farm M+ for valor points and then use that to upgrade your gear. So you get the same result like with titanforging, except with far less RNG

[ChairmanKaga]

This is more of a question than a rant at this point, as I'm 9 months separated from the game as of writing this. This is also more in regards to how it pertains to M+ for the most part.

But are people really fine with how it currently is?

I'm not a fan but I also didn't really care for the BfA chest/trunk thing either. I can't remember getting anything but like a side-grade from either.

[Sucralose]

I mean, the same reason they do now: to gear up new characters who aren't appropriate for 15s, to knock out a quest real quick, or to farm quick valor if they aren't capped. I don't see why that would change.

It would change slightly... people would simply run affix break points making the unpopular keys 11-13 even more unpopular then they are now.

[Tziva]

It would change slightly... people would simply run affix break points making the unpopular keys 11-13 even more unpopular then they are now.

I'm not really sure that's true since the only people who run them now are people who don't care, but even if it was true... why would it matter? If people really don't want to do those key ranges, then what is the harm in them not being done? They don't have intrinsic value or need to exist just for the sake of existing.

[Gestopft]

My army of alts that does one key per week LOVES the vault.

[Sucralose]

I'm not really sure that's true since the only people who run them now are people who don't care, but even if it was true... why would it matter? If people really don't want to do those key ranges, then what is the harm in them not being done? They don't have intrinsic value or need to exist just for the sake of existing.

I might get some flak for being blunt about it but here goes. They are firebreaks in the system. A 11 and a 15 are not really drastically different. It is to try and brick a players key who got lucky with a strong group to prevent pugs from brute forcing 15s for loot. It is a time waster and a way to deter people taking two hours to force a 15 for mythic loot.

I personally no longer see the point in keeping that system around as boosters (the two groups I am a part of sell roughly 4000 sales a week containing 1-4 runs most commonly) are so rampant that the system isn't working as intended anymore.

A more elegant system would be to actually use normal, heroic, mythic as 5+, 10+,15+ respectively for loot then addon the plus system afterwards for cosmetic rewards much like CM mode used to be.

[Argorwal]

I'm not really sure that's true since the only people who run them now are people who don't care, but even if it was true... why would it matter? If people really don't want to do those key ranges, then what is the harm in them not being done? They don't have intrinsic value or need to exist just for the sake of existing.

I’ve thought about this as well, and was wondering if maybe they should shrink the key levels (increase the scaling)

+2 - 1st affix (fort/tyrannical)
+3 - 2nd affix
+4 - 3rd affix
+5 - 4th affix
+6 - max reward

Adjust the scaling so a +6 is the same(ish) to a +15 now.

Less stratification of the playerbase, and makes each key level feel a lot different from the others (except maybe the last one).

[FossilFree]

I like having more than a single choice each week, and I also like getting a weekly chest from raiding and not having to run M+ at all (not a fan of rushing and timers). I think the way it's designed is a bit convoluted though. It could be simpler and more intuitive.

[Goat7]

This is more of a question than a rant at this point, as I'm 9 months separated from the game as of writing this. This is also more in regards to how it pertains to M+ for the most part.

But are people really fine with how it currently is? I know people who exclusively play WoW can lose touch with fundamental design as they are sucked into its specific analytic/statistical design, and as they opt to no longer play other games since WoW demands such a heavy time investment, being what it is. I've seen little to no complaints regarding this, so I'm taking the default assumption that nobody in the WoW community cares or in fact actually likes the current setup.

Specifically, I'm talking about the fact that SL's Vault System massively changed how loot is rewarded in M+ dungeons from BfA to now. We went from a system where you could continuously run M+ dungeons for chance at great loot due to Titanforging and M+ loot being competitive to raid loot, to the current system that we have, where running M+ solely exists to add another slot to your Great Vault for increased loot choice quality.

My main issue with this is that I really like killing monsters and watching them drop quality loot. Currently, this is no longer possible with M+ as the mode does not reward competitive loot, but only serves a function of being an aggregator for your Vault rewards.

I would personally like to go back to enjoying seeing competitive loot drop in the dungeons themselves. Removing or redesigning the Vault System, however you go about it is required.

I support removing vault and not bringing back titanforging. Mythic raiding is harder then anything M+ and requires more, you should not be getting gear from a M+ that is equal to or anywhere near mythic raiding. I understand that mythic raiding gear could also titanforge but just no. People will just do heroic for Titanforged gear and never step foot in mythic raiding at that point. Titanforge system was removed for a reason, needs to stay that way but yes vault needs to GTFO and stay away forever.

[kaminaris]

vault is a trash design that turns game into another arbitrary rng checklist, its literally weekly bingo lottery where instead of getting loot from content you fill the bars to get tickets. And worst part of it, it creates huge gaps between unlucky and lucky players at the start of patch.

[Draknalor186]

did you just take a pretty clear sarcasm post as being serious ?

I dont see anyone else taking it seriously.

If you want the truth I have never touched either system, I hate Mythic+ and simply ignore it, same for the vault ... if it stored all my uncollected vault items you could make a supermarket with them all since I have never used it.

Hence me asking sarcastically what these systems are since I ignore their existence.

Why would you ignore stuff that gives loot in an RPG game tho?