WoW: Undermine a possible future expansion

[TheWorkingTitle]

Incorrect. Goblins have also been traditional Warcraft antagonists stretching all the way back to the RTS games. In WoW we encountered rather formidable Goblin enemies like the Venture Company and the Blackfuse Company.



Considering that engineering is not a class nor houses any of the Tinker's abilities, and the Tinker is a hero concept from both WC3, HotS, and TTRPG, and the Tinker is consistently ranked as one of the most requested and popular class concepts in the game (hence why it continuously pops up in expansion "leaks"), I simply can't agree with that assessment.

So, they were trash mobs/mercenaries in the RTS. And then they've been quest hubs and a raid boss or two in WoW. That does the opposite of supporting your case.


All the different gizmos and gadgets in the all-encompassing Engineering profession, coupled with the vast mechanical visual options (mounts, pets, transmogs, race), completely covers the thematic already. Disagree or not, that is the state of things.

[Teriz]

So, they were trash mobs/mercenaries in the RTS. And then they've been quest hubs and a raid boss or two in WoW. That does the opposite of supporting your case.

My case is that they've been traditional antagonists in Warcraft. Nothing you've said above changes that, and you forget that Goblins were co-antagonists in WoD. That runs counter to your point that they're only around for comic relief.

All the different gizmos and gadgets in the all-encompassing Engineering profession, coupled with the vast mechanical visual options (mounts, pets, transmogs, race), completely covers the thematic already. Disagree or not, that is the state of things.

The thematic is a hero/adventurer who uses technology as the sole source of their abilities. Gameplay-wise that translates into a technology-based class. The engineering profession does not cover that thematic, nor was it designed to cover that thematic.

[Lochton]

BTW, another hint at something going on is Gallywix turning up in a meeting in the Taza'vesh lounge where you fight the band.

Oh you know he's plotting something..

[DatToffer]

Kezan is the surface, not Undermine itself. Additionally, there’s been several occasions where we return to locations that have been expanded upon. Draenor being the largest example, but Kezan itself in BFA being another one. Also, we have the words from the developer saying that Goblins will return to Kezan and get to see Undermine.

If this is the same kind of promise as "Night elves will have their revenge for Teldrassil", beware. Maybe it already happened and we didn't notice.

[TheWorkingTitle]

My case is that they've been traditional antagonists in Warcraft. Nothing you've said above changes that, and you forget that Goblins were co-antagonists in WoD. That runs counter to your point that they're only around for comic relief.



The thematic is a hero/adventurer who uses technology as the sole source of their abilities. Gameplay-wise that translates into a technology-based class. The engineering profession does not cover that thematic, nor was it designed to cover that thematic.

Yes, they have been trash fodder for us to kill for many years. I will agree with you on this.

And anyone that has used the Engineering profession in the various incarnations of WoW have been able to take advantage of a great many gadgets and items. Every ability of the HoTS hero has been an item or ability in the various expansion's Engineering profession and pet battles/gimmick quests. And just because it's in HoTS does not mean it's translatable or wanted in WoW.

The Engineering profession experience has been far more encompassing and fleshed out than any hypothetical mechanical class in WoW. That is a fact.

[TheRevenantHero]

Oh yeah Blizzard should TOTALLY make an entire expansion revolving one of the most unpopular races in the game. Because that will totally bring players back. /s

[Teriz]

If this is the same kind of promise as "Night elves will have their revenge for Teldrassil", beware. Maybe it already happened and we didn't notice.

Possibly, but I doubt it. As I said, we got numerous hints towards a "Tinker class" in BFA and an additional hint in Shadowlands. Honestly the only way you can justify an inclusion of such a class is via Undermine being a major locus in an expansion. Again, perhaps not the main locus, but definitely one of the main focal points of the story.

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Yes, they have been trash fodder for us to kill for many years. I will agree with you on this.

And anyone that has used the Engineering profession in the various incarnations of WoW have been able to take advantage of a great many gadgets and items. Every ability of the HoTS hero has been an item or ability in the various expansion's Engineering profession and pet battles/gimmick quests. And just because it's in HoTS does not mean it's translatable or wanted in WoW.

That's false. For starters, we've never gotten the robotic backpack worn by Tinkers;



Where can I get that in engineering?

The Engineering profession experience has been far more encompassing and fleshed out than any hypothetical mechanical class in WoW. That is a fact.

How can that be a fact when there is no mechanical class in WoW? This is like saying vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate ice cream, yet you've never tasted chocolate ice cream or chocolate in general.

Listen, I understand that you dislike Goblins and the idea of them getting any attention, but your personal dislike doesn't translate into a logical argument.

[Beet]

As cool as it would be I don’t see it happening. For one, todays devs seem to want to erase the past things of WoW and make their own shit up as they go along. Which is what gave us shadowlands which is literally the least WoW like of all expansions.

Secondly, this would be seen as pretty weak I suspect by many players. To go from universe ending threats to a goblin home zone under the earth. Perhaps if it was extremely old god focused it would work but people were tired of them in BFA so again I doubt it’ll happen that way either

My guess when it comes to leaks the one I most see happening is the guy who posted the leak about this being the final expansion. I suspect we start getting mini content packages people have to buy for $30 or so every half a year or so like he claimed. Probably be access to a raid tier and one revamped zone every package. So like a new redone Silithus to fight some silithid or something coming out of the earth at the swords wound.

So yeah I’d much rather have Undermine like you talk about OP I just don’t see it

[Teriz]

Oh yeah Blizzard should TOTALLY make an entire expansion revolving one of the most unpopular races in the game. Because that will totally bring players back. /s

Weren't you just in another thread complaining about the desire for more elf content? Based on the argument you're using here, Blizzard should just give us more Elf content since Blood Elves are by far the most popular race in WoW, right?

[munkeyinorbit]

I realise that underground areas can be just as large and detailed as a normal zone or Continent but at this point Undermine will probably be a raid. You make some plausible points but I don't think there is the interest in a goblin themed expansion. But what do I know. I'm just a user and my ideas about what people want are just as useless as anybody else's.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Where can I get that in engineering?

How can that be a fact when there is no mechanical class in WoW? This is like saying vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate ice cream, yet you've never tasted chocolate ice cream or chocolate in general.

Listen, I understand that you dislike Goblins and the idea of them getting any attention, but your personal dislike doesn't translate into a logical argument.

That is the hill you'd die on? That bs?

All right, allow me to look through 18 years of the Engineering profession, and I'll have 50+ abilities/items that a supposed "Tinker" has never done in Warcraft history.

WhErE cAn I gEt ThAt As a TiNkEr?


It's a fact because the there are over 625 Engineering crafts and over 60 Engineering Quests in WoW's history. The amount of things that I have been able to do as an Engineer since 2004 dwarfs any of the supposed "Tinker" concepts for WoW. It's not even comparable.

You calling me illogical is irony at its finest.

[arkanon]

Weren't you just in another thread complaining about the desire for more elf content? Based on the argument you're using here, Blizzard should just give us more Elf content since Blood Elves are by far the most popular race in WoW, right?

Humans are about the same, from memory. They might edge ahead from time to time, but "by far the most popular"? Nah. Certainly most popular on horde though.

[Teriz]

That is the hill you'd die on? That bs?

You said that EVERY Tinker ability was available in Engineering. Where's my Robotic backpack? Where's Tinkerton?

All right, allow me to look through 18 years of the Engineering profession, and I'll have 50+ abilities/items that a supposed "Tinker" has never done in Warcraft history.

WhErE cAn I gEt ThAt As a TiNkEr?


It's a fact because the there are over 625 Engineering crafts and over 60 Engineering Quests in WoW's history. The amount of things that I have been able to do as an Engineer since 2004 dwarfs any of the supposed "Tinker" concepts for WoW. It's not even comparable.

You calling me illogical is irony at its finest.

You can't tank, DPS, or heal a raid a dungeon, or perform solo content with those 625 engineering crafts. That's the point. Until you can, the profession does not fulfill the thematic or the class fantasy of a Tinker.

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Humans are about the same, from memory. They might edge ahead from time to time, but "by far the most popular"? Nah. Certainly most popular on horde though.

Actually it's not even close. Blood Elves are over double the population of their nearest competitor in every region;

https://wowanalytica.com/statistics/region/us

[TheRevenantHero]

Weren't you just in another thread complaining about the desire for more elf content? Based on the argument you're using here, Blizzard should just give us more Elf content since Blood Elves are by far the most popular race in WoW, right?

Goblins aren't unpopular due to lack of content for them. Goblins are unpopular because they're ugly and small races are awful.

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You said that EVERY Tinker ability was available in Engineering. Where's my Robotic backpack? Where's Tinkerton?



You can't tank, DPS, or heal a raid a dungeon, or perform solo content with those 625 engineering crafts. That's the point. Until you can, the profession does not fulfill the thematic or the class fantasy of a Tinker.

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Actually it's not even close. Blood Elves are over double the population of their nearest competitor in every region;

https://wowanalytica.com/statistics/region/us

Engineering 100% fits the thematic for tinker as well as the fantasy behind it. The only thing you're correct about is that it's not a full blown class.

[Teriz]

I realise that underground areas can be just as large and detailed as a normal zone or Continent but at this point Undermine will probably be a raid. You make some plausible points but I don't think there is the interest in a goblin themed expansion. But what do I know. I'm just a user and my ideas about what people want are just as useless as anybody else's.

Well there is significant interest in a Tinker class, so it is possible that there would be interest in an Undermine expansion as well. I think what would happen is that we would get a MoP-style backlash at first from a very vocal minority, then things would calm down and it would become another favorite expansion for the WoW community as a whole.

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Goblins aren't unpopular due to lack of content for them. Goblins are unpopular because they're ugly and small races are awful.

You didn't address my point; I saw you in another thread being pretty upset about the idea of Elves getting more content due to their popularity. Now you're in this thread saying that Goblins shouldn't get content because they're "unpopular". Which is it?

Engineering 100% fits the thematic for tinker as well as the fantasy behind it. The only thing you're correct about is that it's not a full blown class.

Since its not a full blown class, it doesn't fit the thematic. An adventurer shooting arcane and frost bolts and occasionally lobbing a bomb is not the thematic of an inventor solely using technology to fight with. That's what the Tinker hero was doing, and that's what Tinkers do in lore.

[TheWorkingTitle]

You can't tank, DPS, or heal a raid a dungeon, or perform solo content with those 625 engineering crafts. That's the point. Until you can, the profession does not fulfill the thematic or the class fantasy of a Tinker.

I've exploded, lazered, bombed, frozen, set aflame, poisoned, sent flying, trapped, morphed, and mind controlled mobs for solo content in a myriad of ways over the years with those crafts. I've created all sorts of steam-punk themed gear to complete the Engineer look visually, even creating pets and toys that I can train and battle using engineering themed abilities. I've explored the world, and aided myself in quests, dungeons, raids, and PvP using those crafts.

And I've used far more Engineering themed combat abilities, transportational items, terrain manipulation, and invention than any class fantasy of a Tinker has. This is without even mentioning transmog as a whole outside of Engineering crafts, mechanical hunter pets, mechanical mounts, and the innumerable Engineering-themed quests, daily quests, world quests, mini games, boss fights, and engineering-themed zones.

And ultimately, playing all the time in a suit has never been something in WoW's history. It has always been a gimmick for an encounter, quest, or temporary item. You're wanting something unpopular that has never existed in WoW while calling others illogical.

[TheRevenantHero]

Well there is significant interest in a Tinker class, so it is possible that there would be interest in an Undermine expansion as well. I think what would happen is that we would get a MoP-style backlash at first from a very vocal minority, then things would calm down and it would become another favorite expansion for the WoW community as a whole.

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You didn't address my point; I saw you in another thread being pretty upset about the idea of Elves getting more content due to their popularity. Now you're in this thread saying that Goblins shouldn't get content because they're "unpopular". Which is it?



Since its not a full blown class, it doesn't fit the thematic. An adventurer shooting arcane and frost bolts and occasionally lobbing a bomb is not the thematic of an inventor solely using technology to fight with. That's what the Tinker hero was doing, and that's what Tinkers do in lore.

I never said that elves shouldn't get more shit because they're popular. I simply said that we don't need another elf RACE. Nothing about world content. Way to purposely misconstrue what I said as some kind of asinine "gotcha!" And goblins shouldn't get an entire expansion because they're a garbage race. Blizzard would be shooting themselves in the foot by making an expansion that revolves around a race only 2% of the playerbase even bothers with.

Ok so you apparently don't know what the word thematic means. Engineering absolutely is thematic because it's all about crafting various technological gadgets. That's the THEME. Tinkers in lore are the same thing as an engineer. The terms are literally interchangeable.

[Teriz]

I've exploded, lazered, bombed, frozen, set aflame, poisoned, sent flying, trapped, morphed, and mind controlled mobs for solo content in a myriad of ways over the years with those crafts. I've created all sorts of steam-punk themed gear to complete the Engineer look visually, even creating pets and toys that I can train and battle using engineering themed abilities. I've explored the world, and aided myself in quests, dungeons, raids, and PvP using those crafts.

And I've used far more Engineering themed combat abilities, transportational items, terrain manipulation, and invention than any class fantasy of a Tinker has. This is without even mentioning transmog as a whole outside of Engineering crafts, mechanical hunter pets, mechanical mounts, and the innumerable Engineering-themed quests, daily quests, world quests, mini games, boss fights, and engineering-themed zones.

And ultimately, playing all the time in a suit has never been something in WoW's history. It has always been a gimmick for an encounter, quest, or temporary item. You're wanting something unpopular that has never existed in WoW while calling others illogical.

Again, show me a video of you completing a quest or a dungeon using nothing but those items. You can't, and that's the point. If you can't perform the basics of a class, then everything you just typed is irrelevant. What you're saying here is like me rolling a Warrior, loading up on magical items and saying that we no longer need the Mage class because I've used fire spells, ice spells, arcane spells, teleported, went invisible, and polymorphed something. I still wouldn't be a Mage, and using a bunch of engineering items doesn't make you a Tinker.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Again, show me a video of you completing a quest or a dungeon using nothing but those items. You can't, and that's the point. If you can't perform the basics of a class, then everything you just typed is irrelevant. What you're saying here is like me rolling a Warrior, loading up on magical items and saying that we no longer need the Mage class because I've used fire spells, ice spells, arcane spells, teleported, went invisible, and polymorphed something. I still wouldn't be a Mage, and using a bunch of engineering items doesn't make you a Tinker.

That example would make sense if Tinkers existed. They don't. They're some hypothetical that has never existed in WoW. A Mage is something that exists. See the difference and how your example doesn't work?

[Teriz]

I never said that elves shouldn't get more shit because they're popular. I simply said that we don't need another elf RACE. Nothing about world content.

Okay, I might have been mistaken about that. It was a while ago.

Ok so you apparently don't know what the word thematic means. Engineering absolutely is thematic because it's all about crafting various technological gadgets. That's the THEME. Tinkers in lore are the same thing as an engineer. The terms are literally interchangeable.

The general thematic is technology. Within that general thematic, you have a class and a profession that shares that general thematic, but applies it very differently.

The Tinker thematic is an adventurer/hero that uses solely technology.

The engineering profession thematic is a craftsman who makes tech-based items primarily for sale.

Those are different thematics.