Do all classes require 15+ buttons rotations?

[Yarathir]

I've read nothing else in this thread but my god this sounds fucking horrible.

It's pretty fun.

[Wrecktangle]

I for example prefer combo style rotations that flow together (ffxiv and aion come to mind) with many buttons over reactionary rotations of 4-5 buttons. So to generalize and say it feels terrible when to myself and many others it feels good is just disingenuous.

It's perfectly acceptable to say something feels terrible regardless of whether others like it as long as they can convey legitimate discussion points on why they feel that way. It's not disingenuous at all. There are several features that are widely contested in this game and the combat is one frequently brought up.

I actually like the combo idea thematically, but I don't think FF14 nails it very well mechanically because most of your weaponskills are binary shallow button presses. The longer GCD also kind of takes away from the "combo" nomenclature IMO. I think there's a ton of room for improvement on this front to make a more dynamic and engaging experience.

Why can we not settle for the fact that it is just different than WoW and thats perfectly fine? If you like the 4-5 button reaction/proc based rotations, WoW is right there for you and thats very good. If you like the 15 button, combo rythmic rotations with a slower pace, then FFXIV is right there for you too and thats also very good.

Why segregate like that though? I love FF14 for a lot of things and they nailed PLD thematically and it's much more fun to play this expansion that it ever has been, but there's still design decisions I just can't stand.

Not all games have to be the same and incredibly generalized statements such as "nobody likes this, this is a relic of the past etc" when the game is boasting a very healthy population and has found its market just come off as disingenuous and butthurt (I dont know why someone would be butthurt by this but this is what it feels like).

Wanting FF14 combat to be more like WoW (hint: not exactly like WoW) isn't automatically a bad thing either considering it's practically the golden standard for tab target MMOs. I happen to love the oGCD system in FF14, but I love the responsiveness and encounter design of WoW. I see a world where both games could improve off each other in these regards.

Different people like different things. A lot of people I know for example hate tab target combat and consider it a relic of the past and think action combat should be the new norm. While I love action combat in single player RPGs I absolutely hate it in MMOs. I ve tried all action combat MMOs to date and would take tab target over action combat any day of the week.

Genuinely curious did you ever play Blade and Soul at it's NA launch and if so what did you think of it? As far as MMO combat goes, this way by and far the most fun I've ever had. The feeling of blending CC, damage, resource, utility, and defensives all across engaging boss mechanics was an absolute masterpiece. Not only that the combat flowed just as beautifully in PVP as it did PVE, which was very impressive to me.

He is right though. I have been in your shoes, but i can tell they will never change it. Yoshida said that it's cause of technical issues and console players. They want the game to be more acessable to more people.

I don't know how long you've been playing, but one gets used to it, especially with the off gcd abilities. Otherwise, it's like the strawman says.

Eh, I'd disagree here tbh. Yoshida can say all he wants, but he's changed countless things over the years, and the game on the whole has consistently gotten faster over time.

I'd still disagree that the combat is slower at endgame only because the gcd rolls at 2.5 seconds, it's not a perfect concept but my "mental bandwith" in savage and especially the ultimate bosses is at the same "load" as in mid-late mythic encounters in WoW, never have I once thought this feels slow lol.

It's unfortunately not something you can just casually disagree with. WoW is just faster based on CPM. Generally the slowest specs are on par with the faster jobs, but on average is consistently faster.

If you want to argue whether the mental load is equivalent/more/less that's an entirely different argument and honestly an interesting one.

[Delever]

It's perfectly acceptable to say something feels terrible regardless of whether others like it as long as they can convey legitimate discussion points on why they feel that way. It's not disingenuous at all. There are several features that are widely contested in this game and the combat is one frequently brought up.

I actually like the combo idea thematically, but I don't think FF14 nails it very well mechanically because most of your weaponskills are binary shallow button presses. The longer GCD also kind of takes away from the "combo" nomenclature IMO. I think there's a ton of room for improvement on this front to make a more dynamic and engaging experience.



Why segregate like that though? I love FF14 for a lot of things and they nailed PLD thematically and it's much more fun to play this expansion that it ever has been, but there's still design decisions I just can't stand.



Wanting FF14 combat to be more like WoW (hint: not exactly like WoW) isn't automatically a bad thing either considering it's practically the golden standard for tab target MMOs. I happen to love the oGCD system in FF14, but I love the responsiveness and encounter design of WoW. I see a world where both games could improve off each other in these regards.



Genuinely curious did you ever play Blade and Soul at it's NA launch and if so what did you think of it? As far as MMO combat goes, this way by and far the most fun I've ever had. The feeling of blending CC, damage, resource, utility, and defensives all across engaging boss mechanics was an absolute masterpiece. Not only that the combat flowed just as beautifully in PVP as it did PVE, which was very impressive to me.



Eh, I'd disagree here tbh. Yoshida can say all he wants, but he's changed countless things over the years, and the game on the whole has consistently gotten faster over time.



It's unfortunately not something you can just casually disagree with. WoW is just faster based on CPM. Generally the slowest specs are on par with the faster jobs, but on average is consistently faster.

If you want to argue whether the mental load is equivalent/more/less that's an entirely different argument and honestly an interesting one.

Oh man you awakened memories right now. I played quite a lot of blade and soul actually during its release and reached diamond rank in pvp on a blade dancer and a blade master. Blade and soul combat is indeed something I enjoyed a lot and something I would classify as something in between tab target and action combat.
It was indeed very enjoyable. I have to say though that while it did flow very well in both pve and pvp, it mainly hit the nail in pvp for me as pve tended to be a bit chaotic and I still preferred the pure tab target combat for challenging dungeon/raid content. Blade and soul always felt more like a fighting game to me than an MMO but the fun I had in arenas in the beginning of BnS I have honestly never had in any other game in regards to pvp.

If only the game didnt spiral down the way it did right after....

[Ghost of Cow]

Genuinely curious did you ever play Blade and Soul at it's NA launch and if so what did you think of it? As far as MMO combat goes, this way by and far the most fun I've ever had. The feeling of blending CC, damage, resource, utility, and defensives all across engaging boss mechanics was an absolute masterpiece. Not only that the combat flowed just as beautifully in PVP as it did PVE, which was very impressive to me.

Why does it seem like it's always the crazy corrupt/P2W/grindfest/etc companies that make the games with the fun combat mechanics? ><

[xmirrors]

It's a shame. I'd say FFXIV combat is good, but not great. It fits the encounter design but has some glaring issues...

Honestly I think MMOs need to drop tab targeting like a bad habit. It's almost embarrassing how bad it is in FFXIV especially. It really is the encounter design carrying FFXIV combat into acceptable territory because without it I don't know how anyone could excuse the poor server tick problems, bad tab targeting, broken macro system, almost unbearable low-level job design, etc.

Love the game to death but there is always room for improvement, and combat is where I'd start if I had a say in the matter.

[Swnem]

And yet he is wrong. One can play a game even if there are some part disliked and some liked because the pros offset the cons. The world is not black and white.

Thus why i said you have to get used to it or stop. If you keep going cause you like other aspects, you got used to it. Doesn't mean you like it. xD

[Super Kami Dende]

Honestly I think MMOs need to drop tab targeting like a bad habit.

See this is where many differ, I absolutely loathe non-tab targeting MMO's. I find "action" MMO's to usually be overtly clunky and especially susceptible to any type of server lag.

[Yarathir]

It's kind of funny when you call something misleading and then write the same thing I wrote.

I don't know, I feel like it very much overcomplicates things.

In general, you have two combo sets you go through and you weave oGCDs between them if they're up. If you do your two combo cycle once, Wyrmwind Thrust lights up and you can use it. If you Mirage Dive twice, Geirskogul lights up and you can enter Life of the Dragon and throw 3 Nastronds and 1 Stardiver over its lifetime.

Other than that, it's three buffs and a movement ability.

[Kyriani]

See this is where many differ, I absolutely loathe non-tab targeting MMO's. I find "action" MMO's to usually be overtly clunky and especially susceptible to any type of server lag.

I feel the same way. Especially at my age and with my current physical issues, "action" mmo's are basically a non-starter for me. I prefer tab targeting and letting "math" decide if I hit or not. There's a reasons I don't play first person shooters, and it's the same reason I don't like "action" combat in MMO's.

[xmirrors]

I feel the same way. Especially at my age and with my current physical issues, "action" mmo's are basically a non-starter for me. I prefer tab targeting and letting "math" decide if I hit or not. There's a reasons I don't play first person shooters, and it's the same reason I don't like "action" combat in MMO's.

I can understand the sentiment, but I think the irony is that the current implementation often leads to things being even more difficult/janky than an action combat system would be. A lot of the time the tab targeting in this game does not seem to follow the rules you set and targets something way off in the distance. If I didn't have a 2.5s GCD to compensate for targeting the wrong thing it would be rage-inducing. My opinion, obviously.

With that said, I'm not necessarily arguing that FFXIV should adopt action combat. Too late for that and the encounter design wouldn't work without it. I just think it's an antiquated system and we should be looking for MMOs to do better.

[Kyriani]

I can understand the sentiment, but I think the irony is that the current implementation often leads to things being even more difficult/janky than an action combat system would be. A lot of the time the tab targeting in this game does not seem to follow the rules you set and targets something way off in the distance. If I didn't have a 2.5s GCD to compensate for targeting the wrong thing it would be rage-inducing. My opinion, obviously.

With that said, I'm not necessarily arguing that FFXIV should adopt action combat. Too late for that and the encounter design wouldn't work without it. I just think it's an antiquated system and we should be looking for MMOs to do better.

I do agree that tab targeting could stand some improvement. It seems like in any game I've played it always wants to pick the thing that's 50 feet away (that I am not engaged with) and not the thing right in my face (that I am engaged with) >_<

[Byleth]

I do agree that tab targeting could stand some improvement. It seems like in any game I've played it always wants to pick the thing that's 50 feet away (that I am not engaged with) and not the thing right in my face (that I am engaged with) >_<

Just as an aside to this, I recently discovered that you can change tab targeting setting in the config menu. Since changing it only selects mobs directly in front of me in a cone and no longer selects mobs a million miles away.

Hope this helps a little

I feel the same way. Especially at my age and with my current physical issues, "action" mmo's are basically a non-starter for me. I prefer tab targeting and letting "math" decide if I hit or not. There's a reasons I don't play first person shooters, and it's the same reason I don't like "action" combat in MMO's.

Side note: I can totally relate to this. For me First person shooters just make me nauseas. I prefer the slower pace of FFXIV, but I can understand and appreciate those who don't.

[Tojara]

See this is where many differ, I absolutely loathe non-tab targeting MMO's. I find "action" MMO's to usually be overtly clunky and especially susceptible to any type of server lag.

Most of them aren't smooth at all and are, as you mentioned, clunky.

Tab targeting in this game is awful, thankfully it's rarely used in 'meaningful' content.

I'll echo an earlier statement as well. The more I pick up jobs the more annoying I find a lot of them are to play in synced content. RDM in my opinion is one of the best feeling jobs in any content despite naturally losing abilities as well. The job defining dual cast makes the flow of the spec feel the same regardless of era you're playing, and you actually have access to meaningful AoE, at a fundamental level anyways. The job just feels 'complete' at 50, it's not stingy when it syncs you below that, and only slightly builds on itself. Meanwhile you have to wait ages for DRK and DRG to get their AoE combos to feel complete, and don't even get me started on BLM.

Basically, I doubt the difficulty of the game would be compromised if they went back and cleaned up some of the older jobs. Fleshing out their AoE earlier and adding a couple core functions that make some jobs not dog water to play at low levels. The AoE at the very least, because having access to stronger AoE isn't going to disrupt the balance of doing things like Ultimates or synced trials/savage content anyway.

[Kyriani]

Just as an aside to this, I recently discovered that you can change tab targeting setting in the config menu. Since changing it only selects mobs directly in front of me in a cone and no longer selects mobs a million miles away.

Hope this helps a little



Side note: I can totally relate to this. For me First person shooters just make me nauseas. I prefer the slower pace of FFXIV, but I can understand and appreciate those who don't.

Much obliged on the settings tip! And yea I know every game can't be tab target... but I'd hate for every game to be action combat. I hope both types can continue to exist across the MMO landscape.

[Specialka]

Thus why i said you have to get used to it or stop. If you keep going cause you like other aspects, you got used to it. Doesn't mean you like it. xD

Because you get used to something does not mean you like it.

[Nzx]

It's pretty fun.

I mean, sure, but it doesn't really come across that way. WoW mostly left the "maintenance buff" phase of class design behind ~12 years ago. FFXIV seems to have tripled or quadrupled down on that, added random spammable buttons, and a core rotation of five abilities mostly named "x thrust" and called it a Job (which, honestly, sounds accurate in the common usage of the term).

It literally sounds like all the worst phases of WoW's historical class design (as in strict, repeatable "rotations" then maintenance buffs and then "JOHN FUCKING MADDEN") smashed into one, and then made almost entirely irrelevant by the fact that you can mostly just press whatever you want and not fail.

[Swnem]

Because you get used to something does not mean you like it.

That is literally what i said. Maybe read before replying.

[Ghost of Cow]

I mean, sure, but it doesn't really come across that way. WoW mostly left the "maintenance buff" phase of class design behind ~12 years ago. FFXIV seems to have tripled or quadrupled down on that, added random spammable buttons, and a core rotation of five abilities mostly named "x thrust" and called it a Job (which, honestly, sounds accurate in the common usage of the term).

It literally sounds like all the worst phases of WoW's historical class design (as in strict, repeatable "rotations" then maintenance buffs and then "JOHN FUCKING MADDEN") smashed into one, and then made almost entirely irrelevant by the fact that you can mostly just press whatever you want and not fail.

It has it's ups and downs.

I'm not a big fan of the whole, "Everyone gets a 60/120 second group DPS buff so we have to press them all at the same time and make sure that time is also the time that your 60/120 second personal DPS cooldowns are up." paradigm, but it's not the end of the world either.

The issue with the personal maintenance buffs improved a lot in EW. Dragoons apply their DPS buff with their AoE combo finally, other jobs refresh their buffs in more natural ways regardless of single target or AoE situations, Ninja got a new button to keep their buff up without it being too big of a loss, and BLM isn't completely useless if they let Enochian drop. So they're still there, but EW improved a lot of things.

Overall, EW actually improved the gameplay a lot. It's probably the biggest set of improvements since TP was removed.

[xmirrors]

The job just feels 'complete' at 50, it's not stingy when it syncs you below that, and only slightly builds on itself. Meanwhile you have to wait ages for DRK and DRG to get their AoE combos to feel complete, and don't even get me started on BLM.

Even classes like DNC have weird decisions...luckily they get AoE early on so at least they aren't weak in low level content, but the DANCER job doesn't get their actual, signature dance partner ability until 60? It's just weird imo.

[Tojara]

Not that it's in the particular theme of the thread, but am I the only one who sometimes has trouble actually hitting my damage potion? I swear to god, the tinctures in this game just don't feel responsive at all despite mashing the shit out of them when they're off CD. I'll hit them multiple times to make sure and then about 5-6 seconds later half way through my burst window I realize it wasn't pressed at all lol. Can you just not dual weave them or something? It's minor of course, but holy fuck it's annoying.