Was Mythic + a bad idea ?

[Soikona]

That people do content that offers relevant rewards just shows they can tolerate the content. People while very often hold their noses and do things just for the reward, even if the content itself disagrees with them.

The way you can judge truly great content is if people do it even without rewards, just for the intrinsic fun of that content. Designing content like that is a lot harder, though. Similarly, truly bad content can be judged by people not doing it, even if heavily bribed.

Basically this. I do it for the vault st the end of the week. I tried pushing this season, and I have not done a high key since like September. Main reason I touch them, is to gear alts.

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I mean, there is evidence of millions of keys being completed so I think it's safe to say that participation with M+ is pretty high. 99.9% might be a bit hyperbolic but it's definitely a feature which is engaged with by many, many WoW players.

I’m not disagreeing it’s got high participation, just not to say numbers for the sake of numbers.

[Alroxas]

Why not make ALL dungeons relevant for ALL time! By simply introducing a currency that your player is rewarded at max level regardless of the dungeon they run?

Short version: Balancing.

Longer version: The amount of work required would be incredibly high because you would need to test all the gear from all previous expansions relative to any new you're adding to the current M+. And it's not just gear that you would need to worry about but also encounter mechanics.

Case in point from a recent one: Legion TW M+ brought back several dungeons from Legion to current M+. One of the notable loots: Jeweled Signet of Melandrus had to be retuned because it's flat percentage increase was going to be WAY OVERPOWERED for specs that rely on white damage as the majority of their damage profile.

Can you imagine? Every time you want to add a new dungeon, you have to check that none of the previous content's gear can "cheese" the encounter mechanics. Then you have to go back and check that none of the new loot for said dungeon could trivialize any of the older content.

You know for damn sure that if an exploit creative use of game mechanics can be done, players will do so.

Player power is much too diverse depending on iLvl. The top Mythic Raiders and M+ Runners are leagues stronger than the average player. With my previous suggestions it would potentially bring player power much closer together.

Does player power difference really matter when it comes to PvE content? Now I can see an argument be made that for group content, this stratification of player power means that lower geared players might not be as readily picked over higher geared players.

But let's be honest, who wouldn't want to be "carried" by a higher ilv player?

- It was less grindy, lets say you could only do one of each dungeon each week, put a cap on how much you can do it.

Worst idea ever. If you can only do one of each dungeon per week then it becomes even more selective (aka restrictive) on whom players pick to run with them.

Think about it: Bob only gets 1 shot at De Other Side this week, so Bob is going to pick the best team (in his opinion) together. That means looking for over-qualified players (high r.io/M+ score) and the "best" meta picks. So if you're not a player with a high r.io/m+ score and you're not one of the "meta" specs, you aren't getting picked as readily as someone else.

- It was scaled content, so that your current gear didn't matter, make it more like Challenge Modes

Scaling has never been very good in WoW. We only need to point to the recent Legion Timewalking Mage Tower to see a clear example. Moreover, because it's "scaling" content, enterprising players will search for the optimization to "outgear" the scaling.

Farming Chromie Time gear, using "old" enchants like Crusader, etc etc.

- There were no keys, you could just select the difficulty you wanted, keys is an outdated concept, just look at Diablo 3's superboring rift key grinding.

Maybe but keys concept also prevents degenerative gameplay. If there was no penalty to restart a run and you could freely choose how difficult (based on previous progression) then players could opt to restart for the smallest of reasons.

The best example I can give is Torghast testing on the PTR (prior to Shadowlands launch). Players would reset/restart their Torghast runs if they didn't get an awesome anima power at the start of the run. Eventually Blizzard changed it so that the anima power of the first floor was mostly the same. You would need to finish a Torghast run (say run a level 1) in order for a different anima power set to be given to you at the start.

- There was less focus on key-level and more focus on time. Shorter dungeons, where time matter more than ilvl etc. The fun part about Challenge Modes were the speedrunning aspect, which was lost in M+.

So the best part about CM was speed running.... and M+ is focused on completing in time (or beating the timer)... essentially speed running if you can... Am I crazy or does this not make a lot of sense?

[FuxieDK]

Was Mythic + a game system mistake ?

In it's current form: HUGE mistake.

The best version, would be to scale players to a set iLevel (like Time walk) and stay at that iLevel, regardless of the Keystone level. And then only give cosmetic rewards. MAYBE a mount at a certain level.

It should never ever yield PvE rewards or battle pets.

[epigramx]

It's not a bad idea but it's overrated. The main reason that it's overrated is that the game has 12 classes and that gets only 5 specs; that creates extreme metas; e.g. notice how every single world record lately had a frost mage (mainly because they are broken at sustained aoe because they can keep resetting the orb with blizzard).

That's why 10man mythic on unique dungeons should be introduced; it's a great middle between the extremist metas of 5man and the more complete 20man; it can not share dungeons with 20man because hard mode requires stability of encounter design to balance it and feel fair at competition.

[Battlebeard]

Short version: Balancing.

Longer version: The amount of work required would be incredibly high because you would need to test all the gear from all previous expansions relative to any new you're adding to the current M+. And it's not just gear that you would need to worry about but also encounter mechanics.

Case in point from a recent one: Legion TW M+ brought back several dungeons from Legion to current M+. One of the notable loots: Jeweled Signet of Melandrus had to be retuned because it's flat percentage increase was going to be WAY OVERPOWERED for specs that rely on white damage as the majority of their damage profile.

Can you imagine? Every time you want to add a new dungeon, you have to check that none of the previous content's gear can "cheese" the encounter mechanics. Then you have to go back and check that none of the new loot for said dungeon could trivialize any of the older content.

You know for damn sure that if an exploit creative use of game mechanics can be done, players will do so.



Does player power difference really matter when it comes to PvE content? Now I can see an argument be made that for group content, this stratification of player power means that lower geared players might not be as readily picked over higher geared players.

But let's be honest, who wouldn't want to be "carried" by a higher ilv player?




Worst idea ever. If you can only do one of each dungeon per week then it becomes even more selective (aka restrictive) on whom players pick to run with them.

Think about it: Bob only gets 1 shot at De Other Side this week, so Bob is going to pick the best team (in his opinion) together. That means looking for over-qualified players (high r.io/M+ score) and the "best" meta picks. So if you're not a player with a high r.io/m+ score and you're not one of the "meta" specs, you aren't getting picked as readily as someone else.




Scaling has never been very good in WoW. We only need to point to the recent Legion Timewalking Mage Tower to see a clear example. Moreover, because it's "scaling" content, enterprising players will search for the optimization to "outgear" the scaling.

Farming Chromie Time gear, using "old" enchants like Crusader, etc etc.



Maybe but keys concept also prevents degenerative gameplay. If there was no penalty to restart a run and you could freely choose how difficult (based on previous progression) then players could opt to restart for the smallest of reasons.

The best example I can give is Torghast testing on the PTR (prior to Shadowlands launch). Players would reset/restart their Torghast runs if they didn't get an awesome anima power at the start of the run. Eventually Blizzard changed it so that the anima power of the first floor was mostly the same. You would need to finish a Torghast run (say run a level 1) in order for a different anima power set to be given to you at the start.



So the best part about CM was speed running.... and M+ is focused on completing in time (or beating the timer)... essentially speed running if you can... Am I crazy or does this not make a lot of sense?

It really isn't the same now. Dungeons take a long time to do. I prefered when they were around 10 minutes or so, with speedrunners pushing much lower. What was the record for Scarlet Halls, 3 minutes or so, due to some really cool and brave pulls, I miss that.

[Kehego]

Again, that is a massively intellectually dishonest view, by that logic, every character would have to a hardcore character, only one character can complete a quest that involves killing a named mob in order to fulfill that criteria.

The game can only be considered barely playable if you apply these rules, comparing this to mobs getting stronger every few months or because you decided to run a dungeon on a given M+ level is fundamentally different, because a game can work without these things.

Here's another example, back in Vanilla, Blizzard did defend the fact the player had to walk around a lot.
Why?
Because they wanted that the world feels big to the player, rather than just porting around.
This is not a "gameplay" argument, there is no gameplay about walking, it's about the experience, the immersion.

If you don't like that aspect, fair enough, this is after all subjective, but stop pretending that because some concessions are made, one has to suspend their disbelief on virtually every aspect.

No, i'm not, you're just acting obtuse for the sake of your argument, because there is a very obvious difference between how dungeons have been designed in Classic (or even TBC) in comparison to how they function with M+.

If you cannot see the difference between these designs in terms of dungeon layout, reward structure and general design, you either lack the ability to understand these very obvious differences or just act plain stupid because it suits you.

yawn.
You're the one that made up arbitrary rules and expect everyone (including a company) to abide to your headcanon.

[thunderdragon2]

i personally believe after m0 dungeons should go back to being like cm with just cosmetics as rewards, if people want to do it for the tmog ect and bragging rights let them do so and those with no interest in it dont have to take part, as it stands it feel like people are being pigeonholed into content the dont like because there is power rewards attacked top them.

for example in 9.2 there is a item that upgrades ALL conduits to 278 the obtainment methods are as follows:

obtain gladiator rank in shadowlands pvp season 3
clear the sepulacar of the first ones on mythic
complete the keystone hero achievement in shadowlands m+ season 3

there are very few that achieve gladiator rank each season so that is out to most
outside of spending like 8-10 mill gold clearing the next raid on mythic will be out for most also
this leaves completing each dungeon on a +20 or higher in time....

this was a unnecessary reward that will just pigeonhole alot of players into doing 20s that SHOULDN'T be doing them it will be even worse if the item isnt account wide. if its not this will make pugging m+ alot worse and more unbearable than it already is.

blizz should just give up on either the timer or attaching power to this system the system will be much better for it imo.

[Kralljin]

yawn.
You're the one that made up arbitrary rules and expect everyone (including a company) to abide to your headcanon.

I don't expect anyone to "abide by my arbitrary rules", i am however pointing out that your criticism is whoefully dishonest, because the things you've laid out do not result in a functional MMO experience.
Instances and weekly resets were essentially a solution to the problem that a lot of dungeons (which were pretty much just outdoor dungeons) plagued in MMO's predating WoW, where only a group of players who camped a specific location for hours could down a boss.
If you want to criticize the concept of those features WoW introduced, you'll pretty quickly end up at a point where you have to deal with the fact that enemies in MMO's respawn on an infinite basis - which is naturally a concession pretty much every MMO makes for the sake of playability.

I don't think any of the features that i have criticized about M+ are one of those concessions, because they were absent in previous iterations of the game, hence they are not existential to a functional MMO experience.

So, i stick by it: if you cannot spot the difference between how Classic dungeons are designed and how M+ works, then you either lack the knowledge / insight to participate in this discussion or intentionally act obtuse to prove your own point.

[Relapses]

i personally believe after m0 dungeons should go back to being like cm with just cosmetics as rewards, if people want to do it for the tmog ect and bragging rights let them do so and those with no interest in it dont have to take part, as it stands it feel like people are being pigeonholed into content the dont like because there is power rewards attacked top them.

for example in 9.2 there is a item that upgrades ALL conduits to 278 the obtainment methods are as follows:

obtain gladiator rank in shadowlands pvp season 3
clear the sepulacar of the first ones on mythic
complete the keystone hero achievement in shadowlands m+ season 3

there are very few that achieve gladiator rank each season so that is out to most
outside of spending like 8-10 mill gold clearing the next raid on mythic will be out for most also
this leaves completing each dungeon on a +20 or higher in time....

this was a unnecessary reward that will just pigeonhole alot of players into doing 20s that SHOULDN'T be doing them it will be even worse if the item isnt account wide. if its not this will make pugging m+ alot worse and more unbearable than it already is.

blizz should just give up on either the timer or attaching power to this system the system will be much better for it imo.

Blizzard should take a system that has incredibly high engagement and replace it with a system that had incredibly low engagement? Brilliant.

Players of WoW are not motivated by cosmetic rewards. CModes are not coming back. M+ is not going away.

[thunderdragon2]

Blizzard should take a system that has incredibly high engagement and replace it with a system that had incredibly low engagement? Brilliant.

Players of WoW are not motivated by cosmetic rewards. CModes are not coming back. M+ is not going away.

thats not the only way to fix it the other 1 is to remove the timer as it stand both of them being there honestly doesn't work.......

[Relapses]

thats not the only way to fix it the other 1 is to remove the timer as it stand both of them being there honestly doesn't work.......

That doesn't justify removing the rewards from an activity that currently has high participation and replacing it with cosmetic items which, as CModes proved, were not a very huge motivating factor for most WoW players.

[Alydael]

I would say yes because of the insanely toxic community that has grown up around it. M+ by itself is not inherently bad......

M+ is just a trick

They found a way to sucker you into running the exact same dungeon 1000x over

I would have preferred more content but I can't blame the devs really.

Why would they do more work and make a new dungeon (or new content) while players are perfectly willing to just keep running the same dungeon, over and over as long as you slap a timer on it and buff the dmg and hp (throw in an affix here and there).

M+ plus also proves my point about reward structures. It is not the game or content that is bad, it is the reward structures that are terrible and actually promote toxic in game behaviors in WOW. Think of all the content in the game that basically has no reward. No reason to run it. However, if you throw a chance at a fancy purple item at the end of an M+, players will literally run the exact same dungeon a million times. Its the rewards, dummy!

[Relapses]

I would say yes because of the insanely toxic community that has grown up around it. M+ by itself is not inherently bad......

M+ is just a trick

They found a way to sucker you into running the exact same dungeon 1000x over

I would have preferred more content but I can't blame the devs really.

Why would they do more work and make a new dungeon (or new content) while players are perfectly willing to just keep running the same dungeon, over and over as long as you slap a timer on it and buff the dmg and hp (throw in an affix here and there).

M+ plus also proves my point about reward structures. It is not the game or content that is bad, it is the reward structures that are terrible and actually promote toxic in game behaviors in WOW. Think of all the content in the game that basically has no reward. No reason to run it. However, if you throw a chance at a fancy purple item at the end of an M+, players will literally run the exact same dungeon a million times. Its the rewards, dummy!

Is it really that hard to believe that some people simply enjoy running keys?

[Twdft]

i personally believe after m0 dungeons should go back to being like cm with just cosmetics as rewards, if people want to do it for the tmog ect and bragging rights let them do so and those with no interest in it dont have to take part, as it stands it feel like people are being pigeonholed into content the dont like because there is power rewards attacked top them.

How is that any different to pvp? Pvp rewards a lot of items that are useful for pve, if I wanted to be optimal I'd have to grind out pvp choices for the vault. But I don't do it because I don't like pvp, just the same as pvpers should opt out of m+ if they don't like it.

[thunderdragon2]

That doesn't justify removing the rewards from an activity that currently has high participation and replacing it with cosmetic items which, as CModes proved, were not a very huge motivating factor for most WoW players.

then how would you fix the problems currently plaguing m+ id like to here how you would fix it if neither option i've give is suitable for you

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How is that any different to pvp? Pvp rewards a lot of items that are useful for pve, if I wanted to be optimal I'd have to grind out pvp choices for the vault. But I don't do it because I don't like pvp, just the same as pvpers should opt out of m+ if they don't like it.

that's fair but as some1 that mythic raids i need to do m+ to keep up with mythic raiding but as the system stands i dont enjoy it how would you fix it without telling me and other like me just to not do it which is a impossibility for a mythic raider?

[Kehego]

I don't expect anyone to "abide by my arbitrary rules", i am however pointing out that your criticism is whoefully dishonest, because the things you've laid out do not result in a functional MMO experience.
Instances and weekly resets were essentially a solution to the problem that a lot of dungeons (which were pretty much just outdoor dungeons) plagued in MMO's predating WoW, where only a group of players who camped a specific location for hours could down a boss.
If you want to criticize the concept of those features WoW introduced, you'll pretty quickly end up at a point where you have to deal with the fact that enemies in MMO's respawn on an infinite basis - which is naturally a concession pretty much every MMO makes for the sake of playability.

I don't think any of the features that i have criticized about M+ are one of those concessions, because they were absent in previous iterations of the game, hence they are not existential to a functional MMO experience.

So, i stick by it: if you cannot spot the difference between how Classic dungeons are designed and how M+ works, then you either lack the knowledge / insight to participate in this discussion or intentionally act obtuse to prove your own point.

which is why i specifically pointed out your arbitrary rules.
How does making content scale go against lore? levels and itemlevel don't exist in the lore. Why is that concession for the sake of playability somehow unacceptable, when things just as immersion breaking, such as respawns and dungeons being able to be reset across the genre?

Gameplay has *always* been more important than lore. Even at a base level. Just because certain concessions were absent in older expansions don't make them unnecessary now, because gameplay > lore.
The ability for dungeons to be run more than once, increasing their relevance = concession
The ability for dungeons to scale in difficulty/reward, increasing their relevance= concession

You're fooling yourself if you somehow think that a concession you approve of is somehow more valid than one you don't approve of, since all have been done in the spirit of gameplay > lore.

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That doesn't justify removing the rewards from an activity that currently has high participation and replacing it with cosmetic items which, as CModes proved, were not a very huge motivating factor for most WoW players.

baddies that can't time keys always clamor for the timer to be reduced

(there's a mode without a timer, fwiw)

[thunderdragon2]

It's been one of the best additions to the game since raiding..

How out of touch can one be?

opinions are subjective not everyone enjoys m+ did you enjoy greater rifts in d3? its pretty much the same thing they got really boring after a while for me same thing happened with m+ the addition of gear to that made it worse for me as i feel like its neccessary to do in order to keep up while gearing is as it is atm

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which is why i specifically pointed out your arbitrary rules.
How does making content scale go against lore? levels and itemlevel don't exist in the lore. Why is that concession for the sake of playability somehow unacceptable, when things just as immersion breaking, such as respawns and dungeons being able to be reset across the genre?

Gameplay has *always* been more important than lore. Even at a base level. Just because certain concessions were absent in older expansions don't make them unnecessary now, because gameplay > lore.
The ability for dungeons to be run more than once, increasing their relevance = concession
The ability for dungeons to scale in difficulty/reward, increasing their relevance= concession

You're fooling yourself if you somehow think that a concession you approve of is somehow more valid than one you don't approve of, since all have been done in the spirit of gameplay > lore.

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baddies that can't time keys always clamor for the timer to be reduced

(there's a mode without a timer, fwiw)

when will people understand that racing a clock is not a fun design, i can time keys i just dont see it as a good and fun design decision

[blackbird1205]

For me yes. It was the reason to quit the PVE part of wow for me. No fun racing against the clock and mandatory for raiding (what I hated) which I played Pve for.

[Kehego]

opinions are subjective not everyone enjoys m+ did you enjoy greater rifts in d3? its pretty much the same thing they got really boring after a while for me same thing happened with m+ the addition of gear to that made it worse for me as i feel like its neccessary to do in order to keep up while gearing is as it is atm

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when will people understand that racing a clock is not a fun design, i can time keys i just dont see it as a good and fun design decision

sure you can.

[thunderdragon2]

sure you can.

i got my 2k on a dps and a tank then i got bored now my guildies and fiends are trying to get me to push a 20 i don't have the motivation to do it, only reason im doing so is to prove to my friends i don't belong there atm i'm at 2100, the timers making it boring for me tbh