1. #701
    Russia acting like 1936 Nazi Germany these days.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellus1986 View Post
    Pretty sure surrounding a country with 100,000+ troops and using militaristic rhetoric isn’t diplomatic/political pressure.
    By that measure NATO is surrounding Russia with NATO troops. A lot closer to Russian borders too in some cases. Just recently Canada and UK sent some to Ukraine as well.

    Somehow NATO responds indignantly to Russians asking them to move those further away.

    Where did you see militaristic rhetoric from Putin or Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs?

    Do you think even random members of Duma are decision-makers?

    There are plenty of hawks on American shows and news too; they do not decide policy.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2022-01-19 at 07:27 PM.

  3. #703
    https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukra...-china-1670699

    Man, Tucker Carlson on the pro-Russia train. So much for "America First", I guess.

    "We don't get anything out of pushing Ukraine into NATO so why are we doing this?" he added.
    Narrator: This was not what was happening.

    In fact, the U.S. is not pushing for Ukraine to join NATO and membership of the 30-member alliance, in any case, requires unanimous consent and has previously been opposed by France and Germany.

  4. #704
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Russia doesn't do nor plan to do mass genocide though, so it hardly feels relevant. Could you explain?
    And even if, you would know nothing about it. Not even Putin would go around telling everyone who does or doesn't want to hear it that he's planning to mass murder people nazi-style.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcellus1986 View Post
    Pretty sure surrounding a country with 100,000+ troops and using militaristic rhetoric isn’t diplomatic/political pressure.
    Unless you subscribe to von Clausewitz statement that "war is the continuation of politics".

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukra...-china-1670699

    Man, Tucker Carlson on the pro-Russia train. So much for "America First", I guess.

    Narrator: This was not what was happening.
    That is exactly what was happening for decades. Yes, they were always voted down, but no, they still kept pushing it.

    Starting from Bush.
    Continued with Biden under Obama.

    And... if you aren't doing it why exactly are you so unwilling to put it on paper?
    Get something from Putin for thing you never planned to do in the first place?
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2022-01-19 at 08:37 PM.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    That is exactly what was happening for decades. Yes, they were always voted down, but no, they still kept pushing it.

    Starting from Bush.

    And... if you aren't doing it why exactly are you so unwilling to put it on paper?
    Get something from Putin for thing you never planned to do in the first place?
    Alright, but like, does Ukraine have a say in if they want to join or not? I mean, NATO can extend the invitation, but I imagine Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, could simply say, "No thanks" and that would be that.

    If Ukraine actively wants to join though, I guess this is Russia simply saying they don't care about the sovereignty of their neighbors and shit. Maybe they should focus more on how to make a relationship with Russia more appealing to these smaller countries instead of threatening conflict if they choose to do something Russia doesn't like.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    So what's even Russia's end goal with this?

    It's pretty much just them and Belarus against everyone else right now and, while I don't downplay Russia's probable military might, I don't think it's nearly strong enough to contend with the lion they seem so adamant about prodding with a stick. Is it just posturing by Putin to shore up domestic support? Is he -actually- paranoid that 'The Evil West!' will want to invade his country for some reason despite having no inkling or desire to? Or is he just going for a North Korea style 'We'll stop acting unhinged and crazy if you give into our demands!' approach?
    Lots of people wonder about this.

    It doesn't seem to be for domestic reasons - which is good since that also makes it easier for Russia to walk away and declare victory without anything.
    Since Putin seems senile enough to mistakenly think he applied to NATO, he might be that paranoid - but I highly doubt it.
    It might be that he still hopes for some concessions - and otherwise will take some part of Ukraine (best case - the parts that Russia already have); and in that case likely before the end of February.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Alright, but like, does Ukraine have a say in if they want to join or not? I mean, NATO can extend the invitation, but I imagine Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, could simply say, "No thanks" and that would be that.
    Just as US can say, as a sovereign nation, "we'll not invite them".

    As it is well understood you aren't willing to protect them with anything but sanctions and arms shipments; that doesn't require NATO pathway at all, you're perfectly capable of doing same thing for Taiwan without it.

    If Ukraine actively wants to join though, I guess this is Russia simply saying they don't care about the sovereignty of their neighbors and shit. Maybe they should focus more on how to make a relationship with Russia more appealing to these smaller countries instead of threatening conflict if they choose to do something Russia doesn't like.
    Maybe both US and Ukraine can do steps everyone agreed upon to resolve Donbass conflict.

    Namely Minsk Agreements.

    As noone has any alternative.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2022-01-19 at 08:49 PM.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Just as US can say, as a sovereign nation, "we'll not invite them".
    But like...again, that's a very "Russia" problem since Russia is failing to form close ties with its regional allies to the point where "adversaries" like the US/Nato are attractive options for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Maybe both US and Ukraine can do steps everyone agreed upon to resolve Donbass conflict.

    Namely Minsk Agreements.
    You mean the two agreements that failed to achieve the cease fires? And wasn't one of those because the DPR tried to retake an airport held by Ukrainian forces?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    As noone has any alternative.
    Sure there are, just none Russia likes because it would mean they might have to actually make a closer relationship with Ukraine attractive to Ukraine. It would help if there weren't little green men that were sent in, but that's neither here nor there I guess.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Russia acting like 1936 Nazi Germany these days.
    Or 1939 Nazi Germany that divided eastern Europe with Soviet-Russia into two "spheres of influence" (well, "spheres to be occupied") - and the ultimatum from Russia seems to be based on the same idea.
    Or 1938 Nazi Germany that annexed Austria and then held a really lop-sided referendum.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyonai View Post
    So what's even Russia's end goal with this?
    To resolve Donbass conflict and, if possible, move NATO away from Russian borders.

    It's pretty much just them and Belarus against everyone else right now
    "Against US, Canada, and UK". Even Germany looks for alternative solutions (and blocks arms shipments).

    and, while I don't downplay Russia's probable military might, I don't think it's nearly strong enough to contend with the lion they seem so adamant about prodding with a stick.
    "The Lion" already said "We aren't going to defend Ukraine with our military, if Russia attacks we'll do sanctions and arms shipments" - that is, exact same thing they are already doing.

    So there is no difference, and West already ruled out their "strongest" options as far as sanctions go (like SWIFT) - which was always seen as last-ditch effort unlikely to change anything.

    But Putin doesn't even intend to attack in the first place - regular troop posturing was happening every year, and is largely seen as preventive measure stopping Ukraine from thinking they might resolve Donbass question with their army without being smacked down.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2022-01-19 at 09:11 PM.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Or 1939 Nazi Germany that divided eastern Europe with Soviet-Russia into two "spheres of influence" (well, "spheres to be occupied") - and the ultimatum from Russia seems to be based on the same idea.
    Or 1938 Nazi Germany that annexed Austria and then held a really lop-sided referendum.
    Time does indeed fly, does it not?

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    But like...again, that's a very "Russia" problem since Russia is failing to form close ties with its regional allies to the point where "adversaries" like the US/Nato are attractive options for them.
    We just went to our regional ally to restore order there; and after restoring it troops already left too.

    You mean the two agreements that failed to achieve the cease fires? And wasn't one of those because the DPR tried to retake an airport held by Ukrainian forces?
    Ukrainian side haven't implemented a single part of it so far.

    There is still nothing else available, and noone is going to get any other deal.

    Sure there are, just none Russia likes because it would mean they might have to actually make a closer relationship with Ukraine attractive to Ukraine.
    Sure, you could in theory invent any other deal, but you aren't going to make Russia take it though.

    So as far as i see noone actually tried ("just give it back to them" is certainly not it).

  15. #715
    Per the cited article - https://www.unian.info/war/10391709-...h-adviser.html

    This seems to apply to all parties in the agreement, not just Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Sure, you could in theory invent any other deal, but you aren't going to make Russia take it though.
    Why am I inventing a deal? Why would Russia be taking it? I'm saying that Russia should be figuring out how to improve relations with their regional neighbors to ensure that maintaining close ties with Russia is preferable to say, joining NATO out of concern for what Russia might do to them.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Per the cited article - https://www.unian.info/war/10391709-...h-adviser.html
    This seems to apply to all parties in the agreement, not just Ukraine.
    Yes, both Ukraine and DNR/LNR.

    Ball is in Ukrainian court; there is no point of doing anything until they implement them as written.

    Why am I inventing a deal? Why would Russia be taking it? I'm saying that Russia should be figuring out how to improve relations with their regional neighbors to ensure that maintaining close ties with Russia is preferable to say, joining NATO out of concern for what Russia might do to them.
    Well, we just did with CSTO operation.

    Seems to work just fine.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Yes, both Ukraine and DNR/LNR.
    And Russia, who thinks they're not involved despite being involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Seems to work just fine.
    If it was, I don't think this thread would exist. But hey, that's just me.

  18. #718
    Biden predicts Russian invasion of Ukraine, but says 'minor incursion' may prompt discussion over consequences

    I am now starting to wonder, if all these are done as an excuse to destroy the gas pipeline in Ukraine, in order to push north stream 2.

    I mean, Russia came up with some retarded requests to NATO, requests that they knew that they couldn't fulfill. e.g., kicking countries off NATO.
    They are also ignoring all calls for diplomacy.

    Knowing that they can't achieve a full control of Ukraine, the only other thing left, is skirmishes around the country. I bet in one of those, a bomb will accidentally blow up the existing pipeline, throwing EU into the freezer, forcing Germany to open the alternative gas route. I hope I am wrong.

    Edit: The landing ships that left the baltic fleet, just passed from the English channel. Assuming that they are heading to the black sea(and not Syria/Cuba/Latin America), they'll need around 8 days to get there, with their current speed.

    Lastly, videos with trains heading to the borders full of military gear with their markings removed are all over social media.

    This is either a very expensive bluff, or around end of Jan / beginning of February we'll see fireworks.
    Last edited by Ulmita; 2022-01-19 at 11:22 PM.

  19. #719
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    I am now starting to wonder, if all these are done as an excuse to destroy the gas pipeline in Ukraine
    Nah, if they wanted it gone it'd be gone already.

    It's simply Russian gamble on stopping NATO/West encroachment on their borders. Ukraine will simply be made example of to others who might be eyeing a divorce from Russian influence in their immediate vicinity. There are quite a few other countries that would like to go west, but had to be "neutral", this will remind the populace there, why.

    And yes, they won't be taking over the country - simply carving it up will be enough.

    They also bank on response to be manageable, because there is enough discord and dependency on Russia in Europe to prevent the worst of potential sanctions.

    EU won't do anything too harsh even if Putin legit chunks half the Ukraine, because half the states in EU are pretty poor and can't afford potential backlash over being too assertive there and all it takes is one member state to mess up any potential harsh EU response.

    Overall - if Putin does this so called "minor incursion" - reinforcing the puppet republics and maybe grabbing another chunk of land, it is likely that the so big and painful sanctions promised will be a cost Russia can handle for the benefits.

  20. #720
    And at this point, seeing just how long and hard Shalcker is pushing this, can't help but think that Russia is about ready to plan something and just has the troll army out in force trying to run online interference.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

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