Was Mythic + a bad idea ?

**T-34** · 2022-01-21, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Devilyaki

Think a lot more people do it as just another chore than a system they compete in.

Some people like to put acorns up their butt.
Some people like knitting.
Some people like to see how many push-ups they can do.
What is fun for me might not be fun for you.
What is fun for you might not be fun for me.
M+ was made for people that have my sense of fun.
M+ wasn't made for people with your sense of fun.

**RobertMugabe** · 2022-01-21, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Doffen

It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.

This is just your own speculation, but there is no proof that supports your claims except that it released with Legion.
In the same way you could argue that because of M+, the game has gone to shit as WoW has never been doing as bad as in the last 2 expansion in terms of player retention.

**Low Hanging Fruit** · 2022-01-21, 02:03 PM

Its a great feature. Just needs to fade away from an e-sports mentality and more just into a gameplay one. Its hard for me to explain exactly what that means but I have felt it shift more and more in that direction since it started in Legion. Now that doesn't mean I don't want it to be e-sportable. That is between a game, its players, and people willing to watch it. But something about it just feels.. designed around it now. The AOE cap was a big part of it feeling that way for me I think and it continues even in its more relaxed state. The fact that the trash actually feels more like the boss then the bosses is kind of disappointing to me too. But over all I love mythic plus. It just feels a little more worried about the higher end play that fewer people get to enjoy and kinda sleeps on the lower level game that has the most eyes and attention.

**Twdft** · 2022-01-21, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by RobertMugabe

This is just your own speculation, but there is no proof that supports your claims except that it released with Legion.
In the same way you could argue that because of M+, the game has gone to shit as WoW has never been doing as bad as in the last 2 expansion in terms of player retention.

We have actual numbers... https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...d/leaderboards

SL season 1: 40 million completed m+ runs
SL season 2: almost 18 million runs so far

If that amount of participation isn't called successful what is?

**Osmeric** · 2022-01-21, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Twdft

We have actual numbers... https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...d/leaderboards

SL season 1: 40 million completed m+ runs
SL season 2: almost 18 million runs so far

If that amount of participation isn't called successful what is?

We got the players to jump through hoops!

Conclusion: players love to jump through hoops. More hoops!

You don't judge content by how many players do it. You judge content by how many players it causes to quit the game.

**Sanguinerd** · 2022-01-21, 02:18 PM

It was a good addition I just wish it wasnt just about GO GO GO.

**Razorice** · 2022-01-21, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Soikona

I like this idea. With good balance, the raids can be all about skill and not over gearing it!

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Of course you would, it’s a good place to be toxic.

Of course you would cry about toxicity in-game in an unrelated post. How do you even live with such delicate skin?
I find more toxicity in Random dungeon finder than my daily m+ I run with my guild.

**Hyperaffe** · 2022-01-21, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Archy

Very much disagree. Gearing is a part of progression in WoW. There are a lot of people who only play mythic+. Just make it a seperate progression.
There are (I think) 4 parts in WoW. Raiding, Mythic+, PvP and completionists/solo stuff. Just seperate those 4 with only small overlaps.

...

Maybe you don't have to start from scratch if you choose another lane but you will never get comparable gear from sources outside your chosen content.

Very much agree, it worked so well for pvp. Feels so liberating to only focus on the endgame "pillar" of your choice instead of forcing yourself to do the others aswell to not fall behind (or significantly less so now).

**Toybox** · 2022-01-21, 02:38 PM

Lol absolutely not - It gave PvE players something relevant to do outside of raiding, & it's amazing fun with the right group of people. It's like saying "was arena a mistake" because it's a bit more toxic than random BGs & people leave when things don't go well.

**Sucralose** · 2022-01-21, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by schwarzkopf

Why pick on Mythic+ for that, why not remove gear from raids and have raids only give cosmetic rewards ?

Raids are very niche in WoW because of how difficult it is to get into a raid group, M+ are accessible and increasingly difficult as you go to higher reward tiers.

It is more I feel it would of been better to have set difficulties that line up closer to the game in a wider sense. Have normal dungeons have normal starter gear for raids, heroic,heroic and mythic, mythic.

Then once you finish mythic you get a key that starts you off at what now would be a mythic 15. I think the mythic plus system is a good idea overall. I just feel it would of been better to have it be purely cosmetic and have a more stable difficulty for progression.

**schwarzkopf** · 2022-01-21, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Soikona

I like this idea. With good balance, the raids can be all about skill and not over gearing it!

Raids are 90% luck... getting into a good group, that lasts more than a month.

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Originally Posted by Sucralose

Then once you finish mythic you get a key that starts you off at what now would be a mythic 15.

That defeats the entire purpose of M+ - which is to give people an accessible progression.

**unbound** · 2022-01-21, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Doffen

It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.

rofl

No it didn't. Legion had a more sustained surge because Blizz put more effort into it than WoD (or BfA or SL). M+ was just one component when it was introduced.

Outside of Legion having a slightly less steep loss than WoD, BfA, or SL, WoW has remained in decline. It surges with each expansion and declines rapidly. Currently, WoW Retail is likely number 3 in terms of active players (only a bit over 1 million, topped by FFXIV and Old School Runescape).

M+ only creates excitement in those that like mindless grind because of an artificial counter (M+ number) makes them feel special (aka, the vapid). For everyone else, it creates boredom because you are playing the same handful of dungeons over and over and over and over again (which is not actually content).

If you think it is the best thing since sliced bread, then go ahead and enjoy. If it really was the best addition to the game, then WoW would be more popular than ever, not continuing to enter its twilight.

**Sucralose** · 2022-01-21, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by schwarzkopf

Raids are 90% luck... getting into a good group, that lasts more than a month.

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That defeats the entire purpose of M+ - which is to give people an accessible progression.

I can't see how but I have a sense we won't agree on much.

**Drusin** · 2022-01-21, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Devilyaki

Then do they like the system or the reward?

Why can't it be both? M+ is cool because it gives people who enjoy it something to work on forever and on top of that it gives them a reward they want.

**Easyclassictopkeklel** · 2022-01-21, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by schwarzkopf

Raids are 90% luck... getting into a good group, that lasts more than a month.

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That defeats the entire purpose of M+ - which is to give people an accessible progression.

That's bullsht and a poor excuse for your own situation.
I have been playing since the US beta and I always found a solid raid. Even with meme specs like feral and survival. So did all of my friends.

**bowchikabow** · 2022-01-21, 04:10 PM

Mythic Plus was a great concept, it had a solid foundation, and I think its inclusion was a GREAT feature for Legion. Turning it into an E-sport made it problematic. On its own, the Esport issue wouldn't be THAT bad... Except that in an attempt to balance MDI, they had to change live keys as well. The effect it had on classes and specs was also, I think, a negative after legion.

I think it would have been better if blizz had stayed more handsoff with it. This whole bullshit of implementing rating as a means of locking players out of an achievement was bullshit. Raider.io was a perfectly suitable means of metering a persons capacity to do a key level, the players did not need Blizz putting their dirty ass fingers in the pie and mucking it up.

Two things I would HARD change would be:
when Expack launches, only key levels 2-10 are available, with the difficulty being scaled as needed. When 2nd content patch launches, 11-20 are unlocked and the range is scaled appropriately, and when 3rd content patch arrives.. unlock 21-30, scaling the range appropriately.

2nd: replace drop gear with currency. this currency would then be taken to a vendor who has a variety of items for each slot.. But it is random and changes every 72hrs. The currency does not determine ilvl of gear (that will be a fixed ilvl), instead the key level will determine AMOUNT of currency. Also, there will be diminishing returns on currency after certain amount is earned. This would be to prevent being to (somehow) spam top level key day in and day out to full gear in one day, thus trivializing the entire remainder of the patch cycle. The idea being that: if you are only doing +5's it may take you 2wks to have enough currency to get that item.. but that item will be good enough that it will help you get into doing higher keys, and those who can do higher keys will simply be able to acquire an item or 2 at a faster rate.. thus increasing your gearing rate (via increased currency).

I miss Legion keystoning. And I actually miss dormant keys. I miss there being a real risk when trying to a key beyond your groups levels, and punishing people who are too reckless in their play.

**Alroxas** · 2022-01-21, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by unbound

No it didn't. Legion had a more sustained surge because Blizz put more effort into it than WoD (or BfA or SL).

Eh, you sure it wasn't that Legion required rewarded grinding out emissaries, dungeons and raids for that ever elusive legion legendary drop? How much player retention was in Legion after the Legendary Vendor was finally added.

Originally Posted by unbound

M+ only creates excitement in those that like mindless grind because of an artificial counter (M+ number) makes them feel special (aka, the vapid). For everyone else, it creates boredom because you are playing the same handful of dungeons over and over and over and over again (which is not actually content).

If you think it is the best thing since sliced bread, then go ahead and enjoy. If it really was the best addition to the game, then WoW would be more popular than ever, not continuing to enter its twilight.

But consider the alternative which was Cataclysm's dungeon progression/repetition. Launch dungeons discarded because the later patch dungeons had better rewards. So you just ended up doing the same smaller subset of dungeons.

M+ at the very least gives all dungeons (with M+) relevancy for the entire xpac. Doesn't matter if you started at xpac launch or joined in at the last content patch of the xpac. You had reason to run even the launch dungeons at max level.

As for boredom, I don't know about you but the seasonal affix makes a big difference. From SL season 1 in trying to find the best routes so that you could get Prideful at the right points to season's 2 power gains from certain anima powers to purposely skipping some lieutenants to save on time.

Even in BFA some of the seasonal affixes were interesting. Like being able to use other lieutenants to facilitate trash skipping without using invis pots or rogues.

The larger issue at hand is that for WoW, you're always going to have a declining player base with some population spikes when new content is added. You're never really going to have a steady growing player base anymore so the question for devs is how to slow population drops as much as possible with the limited resources you have.

**Easyclassictopkeklel** · 2022-01-21, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Zodiark

I'm sure there have been other threads adressing this issue but I wanted to pose a question.

Was Mythic + a game system mistake ?

My reasoning behind this is simple. As WoW has grown older and the gaming climate has been changed with many outside systems like Discord, etc, taking over player to player communication, the game has become less social over time.

The mythic plus system basically rewards groups that stay together longer to get as many runs done as possible to maximize rewards, etc.

However, to stay together longer you have to have a group comprised of members who know their role and are willing to stay and work with others for an extended time period.

That being said WoW has grown to encourage faster, low-commitment type players who just want to get in and get the run over with and get out as fast as possible. Back in the days of Wrath it wasn't uncommon for a good group of even random players to run several Heroics together. Nowadays that's an anomaly.

So looking back was the Mythic + system, which only really caters to the minority of players, and is also the focus of many toxic behaviors an ill conceived plan?

So you think a system which many people enjoy and which offers a whole new approach to endgame and which encourages people to engage socially in a MMORPG (which should also always be about socialising) was a bad idea? Back in wotlk dungeon content was so easy that you joined a grp and just masspulled and ran brainafk through the dungeon, often without even seeing one word in the chat. M+ has a lot of potential to change that, but the problem is people are too lazy and/or afraid to actually talk to each other. Half of my friendlist are people I met in m+, it happens regularly that we play more than one key if our pug run went better than expected.
And this is why I think m+ is the best expansion feature that WOW ever came up with. It kinda "forced" me to make new connections because in my guild many people weren't as interested in pushing keys and so I made friends with people allover europe...which is awesome.

**Alroxas** · 2022-01-21, 04:25 PM