Was Mythic + a bad idea ?

[Garkanh]

Sort of.

I know a lot of people who quit, not directly because of it, but certainly indirectly because of it.

Mythic+, along with titanforging as it was in legion, caused a lot of players to burn out.

The idea of basicly infinately scaling difficulty and rewards, in a game where players strife for obtaining the best possible gear, ain't great.
But it's a sad trend that started way earlier, with the seperations of raids in wotlk.

You went from:
Classic: Quests -> Dungeons -> Raids
TBC: Quests -> Dungeons -> HC Dungeons -> Raids
WotLK: Quests -> Dungeons -> HC Dungeons -> 10man raids -> 10man HC/25man raids - > 25man HC raids
Cataclysm: Quests -> Dungeons -> HC Dungeons -> Raidfinder -> 10man raids -> 10man HC/25man raids - > 25man HC raids
MoP: Quests -> Dungeons -> HC Dungeons -> Raidfinder -> normal raids -> HC raids - Mythic Raids
WoD: Same as above
Legion: Quests -> Dungeons -> World Quests -> HC Dungeons -> Raidfinder -> Mythic+0 -> Normal raids -> Mythic+X -> HC raids -> Mythic+Y -> Mythic Raids/Mythic+Z
BFA: Same
Shadowlands: Same

There have basicly been added more and more levels of difficulty and rewards, making the previous tiers basicly irrellevant. Added on to that, the fact that you can basicly keep grinding mythics forever in hopes of the best drops in the game, when paired with the player mentality of having to min/max everything, kills the enjoyment for a lot of people. Sure, some people like it, but a lot of people miss the time where they could have a list of items to aim for, and feel they achieved it when they get one of the pieces of loot they were after.

The removal of titanforging helped the issue a bit, but the core issue is still mythic+.



Well, that's at least my - somewhat incoherent - view on the matter.

[Tyris Flare]

We got the players to jump through hoops!

Conclusion: players love to jump through hoops. More hoops!

You don't judge content by how many players do it. You judge content by how many players it causes to quit the game.

To quote your hero Ghostcrawler (weird that no one ever seems to remember this interview, even people who constantly bring up the difficulty quote):

"Dropping a game because of a specific design change is rare." // "However, for games like WoW and LoL, the answers [to why people quit] are almost always “I have less time to play now (job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore."

https://askghostcrawler.tumblr.com/p...ly-real-way-by

We have no idea how many people quit because of m+, nor do we have any idea how many people only keep playing because of it. All we know is that tons of people participate, unlike most other endgame content.

[Azsune]

I loved Mythic+ in legion. I enjoyed it more than raiding and it was something that I would log on and play. We were pushing keys into the 20s. It ended up taking to much time and as I went back to school it was having a negative effect between working and full time school there was little time to play. I addicted to it and it was hurting my school work so I ended up quitting legion pretty early on. I had a group of 10 people that were always on wanting to do keys.

BFA and Shadowlands were both not interesting to me and the dungeons were less fun. I am not sure what it was but my group pretty much got tired of M+ in shadowlands and BFA we quit after clearing Uldir once. I don't know why but in Legion planning felt more rewarding we would watch our vods and plan cooldown usage. Figure out exactly which packs were best for our group comp and push keys. In Shadowlands we tried to do it again but after pushing a few keys up it did not feel as rewarding and we just started stopping at 15 or 16. Once we cleared Castle Nathria on heroic and had it on farm our numbers dwindled and we quit again.

[wushootaki]

I've only skimmed this thread so I am not sure if this was ever mentioned.

The Mythic+ style of gameplay existed in another MMO. Wildstar had something called Primes, which were progressively harder versions of content you already finished...scaling endlessly, until you couldn't complete the content anymore.

This type of gameplay was done for a specific reason. Wildstar was going into maintenance mode, and by making this endless loop of content, you could have less employees working on the product as the game was creating its own content loop with more difficult content.

Blizzard managed to fine-tune this system and put their own spin on it with M+, adding the different augments that happen to change the difficulty beyond just scaling enemy damage and hp. But it is ultimately still a system put in place to create its own content loop. Players run the M+ treadmill, doing progressively harder content for rewards...but the content is still technically the same content they've been doing since day 1. Blizzard can claim its 'new content' but the reality is that it is a loop designed to allow them to put resources elsewhere, while giving players the illusion that there is still content left to do.

This is fine, I think --- if they spend that time developing other things. But it honestly doesn't feel like they spend it on things worthwhile. We've had 2 expansions now with garbage systems that have been met with vitriol from the fanbase and have been a huge detriment to the expansions.

But then again, Legion had M+ and tons of systems that were met positively (only legendary acquisition got reworked).

One on hand, I miss the Challenge Mode one and dones of MoP. Those, and the Mage Tower content were difficult enough to keep a lot of people working at it, with rewards that made them want to complete the content on every class. But it wasn't this infinite loop that eventually tired people out. You either finished it, or you didn't.

However, this doesn't keep players subscribed or engaged. The endless cycle of M+ can do that, because its technically providing "infinite content".

So it's really a double-edged sword.

Until Blizzard figures out how to fix the community issues in the game --- finding a way to bring back the social structure that created the bonds of friendship/community that in turn have been integral to Classic and Class TBC's success, I think we will continue to see this systems in place that artificially create content loops in efforts to keep people subbed.

[Sanguinerd]

Good news - it isn't!

I'll take being pedantic for 50 Alex..

I know it isn't JUST about speed, there is strategy involved. I just wish it was more than "what is the fastest/most optimal way to do this" because that is what it all comes down to.

They could've done more with the entire idea of a mythic "plus" but instead we got the lazy version that lacks any innovation.

[Relapses]

To quote your hero Ghostcrawler (weird that no one ever seems to remember this interview, even people who constantly bring up the difficulty quote):

"Dropping a game because of a specific design change is rare." // "However, for games like WoW and LoL, the answers [to why people quit] are almost always “I have less time to play now (job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore."

https://askghostcrawler.tumblr.com/p...ly-real-way-by

We have no idea how many people quit because of m+, nor do we have any idea how many people only keep playing because of it. All we know is that tons of people participate, unlike most other endgame content.

I've linked it to him before. @Osmeric is one of those people who thinks any difficulty in a video game is a restriction. He thinks FFXIV is too hard. The guy won't be happy until the LFR is the only difficulty level that WoW has in it.

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I'll take being pedantic for 50 Alex..

I know it isn't JUST about speed, there is strategy involved. I just wish it was more than "what is the fastest/most optimal way to do this" because that is what it all comes down to.

They could've done more with the entire idea of a mythic "plus" but instead we got the lazy version that lacks any innovation.

"Lacking innovation" in this example meaning, "failing to design the game the way I, the center of the known universe, deemed best." The timer is fine -- you don't have to like it. But it isn't fundamentally broken and any alternative without a timer would simply be cheesed by people AFKing and waiting for cooldowns.

[Sanguinerd]

I've linked it to him before. @Osmeric is one of those people who thinks any difficulty in a video game is a restriction. He thinks FFXIV is too hard. The guy won't be happy until the LFR is the only difficulty level that WoW has in it.

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"Lacking innovation" in this example meaning, "failing to design the game the way I, the center of the known universe, deemed best." The timer is fine -- you don't have to like it. But it isn't fundamentally broken and any alternative without a timer would simply be cheesed by people AFKing and waiting for cooldowns.

Not at all, but thanks for assuming

There are other ways of making something "plus" without the timer, who cares if people afk and wait for cooldowns if thats the way they want to play it.

A dungeon crawling mode could be nice too, you don't have to like it

[Doffen]

This is just your own speculation, but there is no proof that supports your claims except that it released with Legion.
In the same way you could argue that because of M+, the game has gone to shit as WoW has never been doing as bad as in the last 2 expansion in terms of player retention.

And thats your own speculation. Which is proven wrong with actual numbers seeing there are more mythic+ runs in both BfA and Shadowlands compared to Legion. So no, its not even close to being the "same way". Mythic + participartion in SL is higher than Legion, with a lot less players playing. Its higher than BfA as well.

Player retention is where it is, despite of mythic+ success. Should tell you where blizzard really failed in BfA and SL.

And no its not "my speculation" , people in this thread generally agree with the statement, because its both logical and based on numbers and thats how players generally feel about mythic+ too.

Legion did a lot of good things. But only one managed to continue its success and even grow the two next expansions. If that doesnt tell you anything, then idk.

[Relapses]

A dungeon crawling mode could be nice too, you don't have to like it

You have your dungeon crawling mode. It's M0. If you think that's too easy that's a you problem not a game problem.

[Exkrementor]

It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.

This is true and real.

However it got too balanced and they regulated it too much and now its not fun anymore. So pretty mich like most things in WoW.

[Tyris Flare]

I've linked it to him before. @Osmeric is one of those people who thinks any difficulty in a video game is a restriction. He thinks FFXIV is too hard. The guy won't be happy until the LFR is the only difficulty level that WoW has in it.

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Just anecdotally even, I'm not thrilled about a lot of the systems in the new patch, and I could go on a rant about how needing to grind for a 2nd legendary or X or Y is what made me quit. But the actual truth is that if my friends were still playing the game, I would be too. Instead it's probably just skip 9.2 and wait for 10.0 hoping people return.

[Goatfish]

The highest participation endgame content, the game would have been in even more dire straights without it. It's one of few things at this point that no other MMO has.

I would argue that the reasons for the high participation rate has little to do with how fun or good it is. I could make the same argument for the % of max players who have done torghast as a reason torghast is good, but the reality is that torghast is just a necessity to player effectiveness. M+ isn't really necessary, but if you don't do it, then you are severely gimping yourself in terms of character power growth.

As far as my take on M+
1: The timer is fine imo. You still get loot, and credit towards weekly vault. Though I think awarding extra loot for doing a dungeon faster was a good feature and it's bad that it was removed.
2: The great vault interaction is probably bad. You end up pulling in raiders who don't really want to do M+ because they get higher ilvl for doing objectively easier content unless you are clearing mythic <insert end raid boss> on the regular.
3: Keystones are awful. Just let people pick a difficulty level at the start of whatever dungeon they want to do. For that matter, weekly affixes could also be made optional for greater rewards. Think the pact of punishment from Hades, super hardcore people could do a dungeon with 6 affixes if they wanted.
4: I personally don't enjoy doing the same 8 dungeons on repeat forever. More variety like we saw with legion timewalking does a lot to prevent it from getting stale.

Ideally, I would just like less RNG in the game in general. The time spent pulling the lever on a slot machine should not be the point of pride to getting a reward. I personally take much more pride in mounts gained through raid achievements than I do mounts where I just got lucky on the .1% drop rate.

[Tyris Flare]

I would argue that the reasons for the high participation rate has little to do with how fun or good it is. I could make the same argument for the % of max players who have done torghast as a reason torghast is good, but the reality is that torghast is just a necessity to player effectiveness. M+ isn't really necessary, but if you don't do it, then you are severely gimping yourself in terms of character power growth.

The problem with this is that people finish gear from m+ very quickly other than the vault, yet participation remains high with people pushing keys. Even after the Vault is useless, there is still a lot of participation.

Legion and BFA in particular had no reward past 1 key a week. You could grind max gear (outside of forging) in a week or two pretty easily. Yet even after that, keys were plentiful.

Surely many players only do it for the reward. There is obviously a pretty big dropoff after a few weeks. But you can just look at API data and see that many other people (certainly anyone I have ever played with) caps out on rewards really quickly yet does it anyway because it is fun and easy to organize, unlike raiding.

[Goatfish]

Until Blizzard figures out how to fix the community issues in the game --- finding a way to bring back the social structure that created the bonds of friendship/community that in turn have been integral to Classic and Class TBC's success, I think we will continue to see this systems in place that artificially create content loops in efforts to keep people subbed.

I will always call bullshit on this. If you want to community to be better, then you have to be the change you want to see. I will admit openly that some design changes have made this much more difficult (realm sharding for instance), but this take is basically asking big brother to force everyone to be nicer and communicate more. Nothing is preventing you from being nice, from adding people to your friends list, or from building your own community.

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The problem with this is that people finish gear from m+ very quickly other than the vault, yet participation remains high with people pushing keys. Even after the Vault is useless, there is still a lot of participation.

Legion and BFA in particular had no reward past 1 key a week. You could grind max gear (outside of forging) in a week or two pretty easily. Yet even after that, keys were plentiful.

Surely many players only do it for the reward. There is obviously a pretty big dropoff after a few weeks. But you can just look at API data and see that many other people (certainly anyone I have ever played with) caps out on rewards really quickly yet does it anyway because it is fun and easy to organize, unlike raiding.

I'd be pretty interested to see what % of accounts stop gaining any rating after ~2000. I haven't really looked at the statistics, but the people who actually enjoy M+ and want to push up to +27 seem like an extreme minority. Maybe we just hang out around different players, but it's pretty rare for anyone I play with to be excited about doing the same old dungeon for the 78th time against mobs with health pools so inflated it feels like you're just fighting a test dummy.

[Tyris Flare]

I'd be pretty interested to see what % of accounts stop gaining any rating after ~2000. I haven't really looked at the statistics, but the people who actually enjoy M+ and want to push up to +27 seem like an extreme minority. Maybe we just hang out around different players, but it's pretty rare for anyone I play with to be excited about doing the same old dungeon for the 78th time against mobs with health pools so inflated it feels like you're just fighting a test dummy.

I'm not talking about people pushing 27s. Plenty of people just run keys as an excuse to have something to do with friends. You can do dungeons whenever you want, any night of the week. No lockout, no organizing 20+ people. Just be online and hang out in Discord while blasting dungeons.

(Note, I do think that removing forging and nerfing the loot did naturally lower the number of people who do this, of course. In Legion and BFA, there was always a chance you could luck out. Now it's just grinding lottery tickets).

And of course this includes dragging friends on alts through weekly keys or helping others get ksm, which again is something that is much harder to do in pvp in raids.

[Aedruid]

Alright this is complicated... I know I'll get hate for this, but it made WoW worse. Now hear me out...

1. Mythic + is FUN for the first six months, then it gets boring. Now there is definitely a sizable portion of people that don't mind constantly doing the same things over and over again, but the rewards from Mythic + make hopping into raids less important. A 5-10 ilvl boost for some pieces of gear is not good enough to push people into raiding. Now raiding has it's own problems nowadays with elitists ruining the experience and causing Blizzard to make 100k mechanics per fights (which is not fun. I personally miss tank and spanks). However, the scaling of loot makes raiding irrelevant unless you enjoy raiding, which in turn breaks up guilds because now you don't need to be in a community to beat content and get geared. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO M+ TO ENTER A RAID. THIS IS BS. LET ME GET PRE-RAID BIS AND STOP FORCING ME INTO M+ (because I personally don't like it)

2. Are we really expected to play M+ for 2 years until the next expansion releases new dungeons? Affixes literally do not solve the problem of making them fun again, but with every patch, "content" is considered a new affix in M+ and a new raid. If Korthia is considered "content", don't make me laugh. That zone is so small and has zero story to it. Oh boy, 1 quest per week and some items with text on it! Yippee! Blizzard literally thinks that since we have Mythic +, that changing an affix is enough content to last 6+ months; as opposed to, creating real content (lengthy stories that aren't time-gated) that engage us as players and get us invested into the game. This only started with Mythic + being introduced.

3. People in World First races getting geared to the teeth before starting the race. This is BS. I want to see blood during the first week until those in the race beat some bosses and get some awesome raid loot. Now they can just steamroll through everything. Not only do they know the fights already because of the PTR, but they also have the ilvl to blow through it. That's just boring. I want to see some skilled players struggle, then overcome the challenge.

4. Boosting. It's just too good to turn down. Blizz could fix this if they added a "mercenary" feature to the game that would allow someone to pay gold to players for their services, but yeah....

5. Elitism / people dropping groups on your f'ing +20 key because John Doe didn't prepot the first pull. Like it feels pretty bad man.

Overall, is it something to do? Yes. Does is make the game lose more than it gains? Yes. Can this be fixed? Yes, but for now, it makes the game an endless grind. The vault did help, but still, I refuse to make an alt with Mythic +. I f'ing refuse.

[Rageonit]

Not at all, but thanks for assuming
There are other ways of making something "plus" without the timer, who cares if people afk and wait for cooldowns if thats the way they want to play it.
A dungeon crawling mode could be nice too, you don't have to like it

No, it's not just "who cares if people AFK". If you made it that way - with scaling still in place - higher levels would REQUIRE you to AFK and wait for cooldowns, because it wouldn't be doable without them. What a brilliant idea - I can already imagine competitive players praising Blizzard for making this awesome mode that forces you to NOT TO play most of the time, to be able to beat the highest levels. And the MDIs and streams, man, that would be joy to watch! "10 minutes commercial break guys, waiting for Bloodlust"

The timer - coupled with scaling - is great, because it works as a soft block. If you can't do it while PLAYING, you can't do it at all. Just the way it should be. No cheesing, no voluntary (or forced) afking; just playing the damn game.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Yup, it was a terrible idea. I'd like to see M+ gone and CMs returned.

[Sanguinerd]

No, it's not just "who cares if people AFK". If you made it that way - with scaling still in place - higher levels would REQUIRE you to AFK and wait for cooldowns, because it wouldn't be doable without them. What a brilliant idea - I can already imagine competitive players praising Blizzard for making this awesome mode that forces you to NOT TO play most of the time, to be able to beat the highest levels. And the MDIs and streams, man, that would be joy to watch! "10 minutes commercial break guys, waiting for Bloodlust"

The timer - coupled with scaling - is great, because it works as a soft block. If you can't do it while PLAYING, you can't do it at all. Just the way it should be. No cheesing, no voluntary (or forced) afking; just playing the damn game.

Why does it have to be competitive? This kind of thinking is why we can't have nice things anymore because it will inevitably get ruined by people being competitive crying about balance, loot and things being unfair.

A dungeon crawling mode is nice for the people who like the RPG part of MMORPG.

[Toybox]

Yup, it was a terrible idea. I'd like to see M+ gone and CMs returned.

How come? I did my CM golds & ended up never doing dungeons again... What's good about that?