Sargeras VS Zovaal

[Sanguinerd]

So far all of the Shadowlands bosses have been shown as incredibly weak so I don't care how they try to spin it.

Sargeras > Zovaal.

[TheFirstOnes]

Also don’t forget we have seen zero evidence that the Eternal Ones can change form as well. Titans are able to literally become such giant embodiments of themselves and either stab a planet or reach down from the sky and physically rip an old god out of the surface of it.

With that in mind Sargeras could essentially just rip him apart.

If we take it that they are both set to the same size it would be another story. We have not really seen Zovaals power or Sargeras for that matter. We have heard they are powerful and their armies have done massive amounts of damage and destruction. But their influence and corruption seems to be more their power. Making others bend to their will and join them thus making their opposition weaker by infiltrating their ranks and destabilising their forces.

The most power we have seen is Sargeras stabbing Azeroth, him fighting and defeating the titans and cutting an entire planet in half. Zovaal has mostly corrupted others and brought a distance plane into the maw and then reclaimed his Sigil to open a portal to another realm where he seems to want to rework the universe but can’t do it without other power sources and energy from another being as well as machinery from other entities that created him.

All in all this makes me think Sargeras would be more powerful in a one on one fight. He knows how to fight and he is crazy enough to win. Where as Zovaal hasn’t really shown he is a fighter and he won’t have his army behind him to do all the work for him

All that to be debunked by the Primus literally changing size to go through that Runecarver portal

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“Where as Zovaal hasn’t really shown he is a fighter and he won’t have his army behind him to do all the work for him”

Pay attention, before you say weird shit like this

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So far all of the Shadowlands bosses have been shown as incredibly weak so I don't care how they try to spin it.

Sargeras > Zovaal.

…what? That just means we have lots of power now tf???

[Jester Joe]

Empowered Devos>Kyrestia
Devos<5 players
Kyrestia, Primus, Winter queen, Denathrius>Zovaal
Zovaal=Titan++

WTF

You're not including the fact that all the Eternal Ones credit the Primus with the victory over Zovaal.

[TheFirstOnes]

Sargeras could literally rip Torghast out of the ground and use it as a toothpick lol
Not a single Eternal One has shown anything even close to the titans, in terms of power. The Eternal Ones might be their equivalent in status, but that doesnt mean they are as powerful.
Until we see Zovaal do anything close to evaporating multiple planets at once (like Sargeras did with the rest of the Titans), it should not even be a competition.

But, considering Zovaal is the new writers version of Sargeras, they would probably have him win through some "yada yada domination chains" crap or smth lmao

Except that’s not how Torghast works…

[Aucald]

I don't really know about all the "Titan++" nonsense surrounding the Eternal Ones, but I would wager Sargeras definitely qualifies as "greater than a Titan" considering that he managed to kill the entire rest of the Pantheon in a single battle. I think Sargeras is more personally powerful than Zovaal based on both of their current characterizations, though Zovaal may be more devious and/or intelligent.

[tommyhil622]

It's been a while since i posted but imo we will have a post shadowlands patch where Zovaal's meddling in the universal origination chamber will upset the balance that sealed Sargeras and it will free him from the prison he's kept deep within the Titan Patheon's chamber. It would allow the story to come full circle where it started, Legion -> BFA -> SHadowlands and essentially the culmination of the TItan story line. In the shadowlands we keep hearing all the things that ZOvaal did to manipulate the biggest force Azeroth has ever seen. It's been finally revealed the key to Sargera's plan to remake the universe where it would eliminate any chance for the Void Lords to dominate or come to existence. So imo upon Zovaal failing the last straw will be broken and Sargeras will be free and we will have to deal with him.

As for the specific topic, Zovaal imo has avoided and manipulated beings like Sargeras because he can't deal with them in a confrontation. And his plan allowed him to skip that all together, cause if he succeeds in the origination chamber, the power of Sargeras doesn't matter. However if for w/e reason he showed up then Zovaal wouldn't stand a chance. And imo its the point of Zovaal, not his personal power but his threat in terms of his plans. I think over the years people have distorted the Titan++ interpretation as if he supposed to be stronger than an individual titan. No his "threat" is stronger, as in wiping out all of existence in one fell swoop without having to deal with a titan at all. He would do what Sargeras wanted to do all along but come very close to succeeding.

[Sanguinerd]

All that to be debunked by the Primus literally changing size to go through that Runecarver portal

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“Where as Zovaal hasn’t really shown he is a fighter and he won’t have his army behind him to do all the work for him”

Pay attention, before you say weird shit like this

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…what? That just means we have lots of power now tf???

A domination controlled Anduin got the best of Kyrestia, a fellow Eternal One to Zovaal.. sure he might be slightly stronger than her but not by that much.

Now think about a domination controlled Anduin doing that to Sargeras.

[TheFirstOnes]

Tbh I dont understand why we didnt fight Sargeras directly in Antorus raid on Argus.

It was just cinematic at the end.

I mean I understand they want to save and use later perhaps. But why to show how he is defeated in cinematic ?

If he was defeated, or beaten, chained, in cinematic they could easily make him the real final boss of Legion and he could be imprisoned same way.

Cause we’re not finishing him off yet? We’re getting heavily nerfed this expac and we haven’t seen most Cosmic Realms in their full extent yet. We’ve seen only parts of the true Nether, been to its veil the rest of it, or have been to worlds where the Nethers influence and dark Magics leak into reality, we haven’t seen the Life plane nor its Zereth, etc

[FuxieDK]

Who's stronger?

Blizzard stated before release of ShaLa, that Pantheon of Death is Titan level and Zovaal is Titan++ level.

So, according to Blizzard's own words, Zovaal is stronger ham Sargeras.

[Souflikar]

Don’t care about titan++ noise. Sargeras was basically humping Azeroth at the end of legion. That sums it up for me.

[TheFirstOnes]

A domination controlled Anduin got the best of Kyrestia, a fellow Eternal One to Zovaal.. sure he might be slightly stronger than her but not by that much.

Now think about a domination controlled Anduin doing that to Sargeras.

Considering the power of Domination and Zovaal by that time being able to power Argus itself through a small fraction of his former power, to dismantle the Arbiter who is said to be omniscient, put Azeroth’s world soul into a very ill state through the Magic’s powering Sargeras’ sword, have Argus use the last of his power to bind Sargeras forever, dominate someone who’s literally said to house crazy holy Magics and mind Hax resistance through Shadow aid, and at FP fuck up the Automa, who exist as the caretakers of the workshops of the Progenitors and literally built all that we know in both the Shadowlands etc using creation Magics, which exists by utilizing fractal Magics which is the very first specimen of the progenitors and their language

[Houle]

Considering the power of Domination and Zovaal by that time being able to power Argus itself through a small fraction of his former power, to dismantle the Arbiter who is said to be omniscient, put Azeroth’s world soul into a very ill state through the Magic’s powering Sargeras’ sword, have Argus use the last of his power to bind Sargeras forever, dominate someone who’s literally said to house crazy holy Magics and mind Hax resistance through Shadow aid, and at FP fuck up the Automa, who exist as the caretakers of the workshops of the Progenitors and literally built all that we know in both the Shadowlands etc using creation Magics, which exists by utilizing fractal Magics which is the very first specimen of the progenitors and their language

Nowhere is it stated that Zovaal and/or Domination was used to empower Argus. Literally nowhere. We know that Argus was pumped full of death magic. That does not at all mean that it was Zovaals power. It was merely done by the dreadlords, on behalf of Zovaal, over eons.
Once again you talk as if your own headcanon is factual, to push your own imagination of the lore.

Blizzard stated before release of ShaLa, that Pantheon of Death is Titan level and Zovaal is Titan++ level.

So, according to Blizzard's own words, Zovaal is stronger ham Sargeras.

Sargeras isnt a normal Titan. He was the strongest warrior of them all before his corruption. And afterwards, he became so powerful he destroyed them all with a single fel storm. Sargeras is the definition of Titan++

[TheFirstOnes]

Nowhere is it stated that Zovaal and/or Domination was used to empower Argus. Literally nowhere. We know that Argus was pumped full of death magic. That does not at all mean that it was Zovaals power. It was merely done by the dreadlords, on behalf of Zovaal, over eons.
Once again you talk as if your own headcanon is factual, to push your own imagination of the lore.



Sargeras isnt a normal Titan. He was the strongest warrior of them all before his corruption. And afterwards, he became so powerful he destroyed them all with a single fel storm. Sargeras is the definition of Titan++

He never solo'd them, and the WQ's prototype attacks us with Anima Storms, stop. And it's not...it is ZOVAAL's twisted death magics combined with Denathrius'. Argus is legit called the "JAILER'S GAMBIT MADE MANIFEST", and Zovaal's scythe weapon drop is called "Zovastrum, the unmaking" with the description "Begin the end of all things", not to mention the Maw amps from Revendreth, Ardenweald and the Emerald Dream being counterparts, of which Freya simple took from apparently, as the Dream and Ardenweald both consist of Infinite layers where concepts such as time and space mean literally fuck all, etc, all if which amp Zovaal up more. The Eternal Ones are abstract embodiments of the power of Death, the same with the Titans for Order, etc.

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Don’t care about titan++ noise. Sargeras was basically humping Azeroth at the end of legion. That sums it up for me.

And Zovaal is literall absorbing her power and slamming tf outta both the world, the Titan, etc.

[Hobbidaggy]

He never solo'd them, and the WQ's prototype attacks us with Anima Storms, stop. And it's not...it is ZOVAAL's twisted death magics combined with Denathrius'. Argus is legit called the "JAILER'S GAMBIT MADE MANIFEST", and Zovaal's scythe weapon drop is called "Zovastrum, the unmaking" with the description "Begin the end of all things", not to mention the Maw amps from Revendreth, Ardenweald and the Emerald Dream being counterparts, of which Freya simple took from apparently, as the Dream and Ardenweald both consist of Infinite layers where concepts such as time and space mean literally fuck all, etc, all if which amp Zovaal up more. The Eternal Ones are abstract embodiments of the power of Death, the same with the Titans for Order, etc.

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And Zovaal is literall absorbing her power and slamming tf outta both the world, the Titan, etc.

And you had a go at me and told me to pay attention before saying weird shit…..man you’re head cannon is fucking intense

[Aucald]

He never solo'd them [...]

According to Chronicle Vol. 1, he did. And before employing the "Chronicle is no longer canon" gambit, the series is both canon and a first-person account of the events from the Titans' own perspective - they themselves claim that Sargeras destroyed the 6 remaining members of the Pantheon at Nihilam in a single pitched battle and that he had no other beings aiding him in said battle. Unless your claim is that the Titans are lying about the circumstances of their own deaths at Sargeras' hands, then yes, he did indeed solo them.

[Super Dickmann]

I have no idea how this even hit two pages, Sargeras is the size of a planet it's pretty self-evident who'd win.

[Aydinx2]

And Zovaal is literall absorbing her power and slamming tf outta both the world, the Titan, etc.

That doesn't really mean anything. Plenty of weaker beings can absorb the power of something more powerful, especially considering Azeroth isn't actually awake/defending herself.

Is a mosquito more powerful than a human because it steals blood while we sleep?

[Aucald]

I have no idea how this even hit two pages, Sargeras is the size of a planet it's pretty self-evident who'd win.

Size doesn't really matter a whole lot when it comes to WoW - I mean Arcanagos was many times over the size of Medivh, but that didn't stop the dragon from being punk'd with a single spell that set him on fire from the inside out.

[Jastall]

Zovaal has done nothing that showcases an impressive amount of power. None of Eternal Ones have. He's been shown to be cunning (thanks in large part due to having the plot at his back, but still), far more of a schemer than a fighter. We could never even hurt Sargeras's pinky, but we will outright kill Zovaal in the raid, and according to the dungeon journal so far so one's even going to help us.

As an ultimate example; to kill Azeroth for his ends, Zovaal had to devise a hideously complicated plan to enter the anvil upon which all of the cosmic force of Death was forged, has to go to a specific room, and enact a specific ritual/sequence to achieve his goal. To kill Azeroth Sargeras just has to be near her and chop her in half.

The Titan++ thing was noise, empty hype. Zovaal has ambitions just as grand as Sargeras's perhaps, but personally he's not shown to be anywhere near as overwhelmingly powerful. Which by the by, I don't consider a particularly bad thing. It was not that satisfying to beat Sargeras by killing his proxy because fighting the man himself is completely impossible.

[Eazy]

Based on the feats Zovaal isn't even stronger than Arthas Lich King, lmao.