How do you cater to both the Progression player and the Casual player?

[Deadite]

Because collecting 15 squirrel nuts to get an item that is better than anything that drop in a Mythic raid makes sense.

K.

I don't think it does make sense. The trouble is when self-important blowhards cry that people other than them get any gear with a purple hue.

- - - Updated - - -

I havnt seen someone complain about "epics" since cata, and it was casuals complaining they were not getting epics from 5mans. .

Guess you have never read any LFR thread ever when they want it removed or not give up those sweet epics 40 ilvls below the ones they get.

[Relapses]

I don't think it does make sense. The trouble is when self-important blowhards cry that people other than them get any gear with a purple hue.

Get better at the game and you won't have to worry about self important blowhards.

[Dr Assbandit]

Throw progressioners vs casuals in a large hunger games style battle pit.

Winner takes all.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Stop treating them as the same community for starters.

Blizz has been good about keeping PvE and PvP seperate for a while now, why not apply that same logic to Raiding?

[Bellows]

Honest question, is the Korthia gear not enough of a gear progression track for people who do not want to raid or do mythic+? If it's not, is the problem that the gear only goes up to 233? If that is the problem, why is 233 gear not sufficient to both progress and do the content you want to do?

[Aucald]

Let's not introduce game vs. game rhetoric into the discussion (e.g. WoW vs. FF14). Keep the discussion centered on the progress vs. casual divide as it pertains to WoW.

[Deadite]

Get better at the game and you won't have to worry about self important blowhards.

I play the game just fine. I just don't want to play it with people like you who look down on everyone who has the audacity to play a video game some othe way. If people wonder why not many people make the leap from LFR to normal then it is thanks to people like you.

[Lochton]

I assume that there isn't a 100% perfect answer but in your mind what would come close to the best possible compromise between these two groups?

In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

What are your thoughts on it?

It is very difficult because both player bases have people within them who believe that what is on the other plate has to be theirs too, and they feel outraged when someone gets something different for something else.

How to cater to both progression and world players, bring back procs on equipment as well as apply upgrades to make them stronger BUT do not permit them to exceed the item level of heroic unless it is a proc of Warforged. As well, permit people to once more do some more controlled min/max in the form of reforging. Make world content with a completely different set of rewards than that of progression - as well as a completely different timeframe than that of progression. If people complain that they cannot juggle the two things at the same time, do not falter, it is not meant to be all on the same plate.

We have to accept, as players, that some sections of a thriving MMORPG have different needs for time and interaction than others. We already welcome the casual player into progression with LFR and Normal raiding, and the progression player has the freedom of journeying into the world but both should realize that both things have different needs of dedication.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Honest question, is the Korthia gear not enough of a gear progression track for people who do not want to raid or do mythic+? If it's not, is the problem that the gear only goes up to 233? If that is the problem, why is 233 gear not sufficient to both progress and do the content you want to do?

I'd assume the issue isn't power so much as duration of the content.

If it's designed as an on-ramp to Raiding/M+ then that gear is going to be quick to obtain and non-endgame players are gonna be stuck in the same spot as always where a month into the patch they're out of things to do.

[Sucralose]

It is very difficult because both player bases have people within them who believe that what is on the other plate has to be theirs too, and they feel outraged when someone gets something different for something else.

How to cater to both progression and world players, bring back procs on equipment as well as apply upgrades to make them stronger BUT do not permit them to exceed the item level of heroic unless it is a proc of Warforged. As well, permit people to once more do some more controlled min/max in the form of reforging. Make world content with a completely different set of rewards than that of progression - as well as a completely different timeframe than that of progression. If people complain that they cannot juggle the two things at the same time, do not falter, it is not meant to be all on the same plate.

We have to accept, as players, that some sections of a thriving MMORPG have different needs for time and interaction than others. We already welcome the casual player into progression with LFR and Normal raiding, and the progression player has the freedom of journeying into the world but both should realize that both things have different needs of dedication.

I admit the part about procs has my back up . The nightmare of mana pearls and corruption are still rather fresh. Wouldn't a zone wide system like the cypher work? It would allow them to become more powerful in their content without impacting everything else around them.

[Miffinat0r]

If watching MMORPGs develop since 2016 has taught me anything: To appeal to everyone, there should be a universal currency that everyone gets with a cap and it works towards the same gear stats. Needs are a thing of the real world, not a virtual one.

If you could cap the currency, so it ensures that gear and currency won't drop once you hit that cap you eliminate the chore feeling. Everyone wins. Then when you're fully in BiS either from Raids, or M+ you get a special token that lets you transfer the currency to alts so you can gear them up too, because the players who do that will get the currency much faster than the solo player. The same would also apply to the solo player but it's most likely they'll only be progressing one character.

This seems to be the first step in getting more players in the game, and more players staying in the game.

[ReesePieces]

In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

Yes.

Provide the majority of players/playstyles a path to eventually reach the power cap and have the most difficult content provide cosmetics, mounts, achievements, titles, teleports etc.

[Miffinat0r]

Yes.

Provide the majority of players/playstyles a path to eventually reach the power cap and have the most difficult content provide cosmetics, mounts, achievements, titles, teleports etc.

This always struck me and a bunch of older MMO players as odd, given that we're in 2022 now. Locking actual gear and items behind the hardest content seems to be a self-inflicting wound. Maybe give titles, and cosmetics for that content, because you know you enjoy that content. Removing player power from it would allow for players who enjoy hard raids to just do hard raids because they enjoy hard raids and don't feel the need to constantly do things to remain "competitive"

Final note: Competitive PvE MMORPG play makes no sense to the vast majority of the playerbase. It's a statement that's just dumb.

[VinceVega]

The unfortunate reality in wow is that too many people care more about what gear other people get than their own. They get furious that anyone but them can get epics and we are talking epics with considerably less Ilvl.

Epic just lost its meaning completly. There is nothing epic about purple gear... you get it from fucking WQs...
It took away the feeling of accomplishment when you managed to BIS your char is purple gear and once or twice per addon some classes could get a orange...

Now. Who cares. Colors lost their meaning completly. THAT is what annoys me about welfareepics. As long as i cannot get mythic gear from open world faceroll stuff i am fine with ilvl.

[Aedruid]

Consistently add long in-depth stories to game that engage everyone with every patch. None of this 1 quest per week BS. Add more patches to increase the cadence of adding quest content to the game.

[VinceVega]

This always struck me and a bunch of older MMO players as odd, given that we're in 2022 now. Locking actual gear and items behind the hardest content seems to be a self-inflicting wound. Maybe give titles, and cosmetics for that content, because you know you enjoy that content. Removing player power from it would allow for players who enjoy hard raids to just do hard raids because they enjoy hard raids and don't feel the need to constantly do things to remain "competitive"

Final note: Competitive PvE MMORPG play makes no sense to the vast majority of the playerbase. It's a statement that's just dumb.

What if i enjoy the content and get actually stronger from doing it?
Why have player power on gear at all if you can get it from your local supermarket for a penny?

[Elbob]

Yes.

Provide the majority of players/playstyles a path to eventually reach the power cap and have the most difficult content provide cosmetics, mounts, achievements, titles, teleports etc.

you understand the rewards from things like mythic raiding are needing to progress through mythic raiding for 95%+ of mythic raiders right? I think the concept that needs to be accepted is that for most players is there is always a next hurdle in difficulty and that next hurdle grants you better rewards. its your choice if you want to go for it and its ok that some people have crossed that hurdle if you choose not to.

[Aedruid]

This always struck me and a bunch of older MMO players as odd, given that we're in 2022 now. Locking actual gear and items behind the hardest content seems to be a self-inflicting wound. Maybe give titles, and cosmetics for that content, because you know you enjoy that content. Removing player power from it would allow for players who enjoy hard raids to just do hard raids because they enjoy hard raids and don't feel the need to constantly do things to remain "competitive"

Final note: Competitive PvE MMORPG play makes no sense to the vast majority of the playerbase. It's a statement that's just dumb.

Nope, powerful items should be locked behind beating a monstrous opponent in any RPG. A good example of how to ruin a game is to use cheat codes to unlock the most OP weapons at the start of a game and just breeze through it. Working hard to get something sets you up for a sense of accomplishment, which feels great, and just giving casual players loot because "it looks shiny and i's wants it" ruins your experience. Like what's the point of giving a casual player the best loot in the game? You LITERALLY do not use it.

[Miffinat0r]

Nope, powerful items should be locked behind beating a monstrous opponent in any RPG. A good example of how to ruin a game is to use cheat codes to unlock the most OP weapons at the start of a game and just breeze through it. Working hard to get something sets you up for a sense of accomplishment, which feels great, and just giving casual players loot because "it looks shiny and i's wants it" ruins your experience. Like what's the point of giving a casual player the best loot in the game? You LITERALLY do not use it.

But what you're saying here is the content you're doing isn't fun if someone gets something similar. That's not an indictment of the ease or the other player, but it sounds more like its an indictment on how unfun the content is.

Again add a badge system with a hard cap for all content. Raiders/M+ get there faster, and can gear up alts easier, and solo players have a similar system but it takes them longer. It's fair, and fun for all.

[Temp name]

By making content that they both want to do.
This means story stuff and gear grind for casuals, and raids/dungeons for hardcore

I don't care if people get BiS gear in 6 months since I can get there in a month or two