How do you cater to both the Progression player and the Casual player?

[Akillahz]

I'm blown away with how many people agree that players who just do casual content like dailies, world quests, rares and treasures, etc... need a way to get BiS gear... Like why do you even need it if you're not gonna use it in raids, mythic+ or PvP? Someone who puts more time and effort into the game should get better rewards, that only makes sense to me. I'm not a hardcore player by all means. I don't like pushing keys, I don't like rated PvP so I don't do those things. I do enjoy raiding here and there but only up to heroic difficulty max. In 9.0 I raided Castle Nathria so I cared about gear since it would help me do more DPS during raids, in 9.1 I don't raid because I don't feel like it right now so I don't care about gear because the gear I have is good enough to do the content I do like grinding rep in Korthia, weekly Torghast and legacy content for transmogs and mounts. I don't mind it that people who do raids, mythic+ and rated PvP have higher iLvl than me because they also use the higher iLvl gear in whatever they do and put effort and time into clearing that kind of content, while the content I do only requires time, not effort because it's easy content. And besides, you can get iLvl 233 gear in Korthia which is pretty much normal raid gear and in the next patch there will be new gear again you can get easily by doing casual content but it should NEVER be as high iLvl as Mythic raid gear, gear from high keys or high rated PvP gear.

You want better rewards? Then do more difficult content, improve yourself in the game and overcome challenges. If you have no interest in that? Then you also shouldn't be interested in high iLvl gear because you wouldn't be putting it to use anyway. I would be okay with challenging single player content that gives good gear (like normal raid gear or in between normal and heroic gear iLvl wise) but again should never be on the level of Mythic raids or other high end content.

[NineSpine]

I'm blown away with how many people agree that players who just do casual content like dailies, world quests, rares and treasures, etc... need a way to get BiS gear... Like why do you even need it if you're not gonna use it in raids, mythic+ or PvP? Someone who puts more time and effort into the game should get better rewards, that only makes sense to me. I'm not a hardcore player by all means. I don't like pushing keys, I don't like rated PvP so I don't do those things. I do enjoy raiding here and there but only up to heroic difficulty max. In 9.0 I raided Castle Nathria so I cared about gear since it would help me do more DPS during raids, in 9.1 I don't raid because I don't feel like it right now so I don't care about gear because the gear I have is good enough to do the content I do like grinding rep in Korthia, weekly Torghast and legacy content for transmogs and mounts. I don't mind it that people who do raids, mythic+ and rated PvP have higher iLvl than me because they also use the higher iLvl gear in whatever they do and put effort and time into clearing that kind of content, while the content I do only requires time, not effort because it's easy content. And besides, you can get iLvl 233 gear in Korthia which is pretty much normal raid gear and in the next patch there will be new gear again you can get easily by doing casual content but it should NEVER be as high iLvl as Mythic raid gear, gear from high keys or high rated PvP gear.

You want better rewards? Then do more difficult content, improve yourself in the game and overcome challenges. If you have no interest in that? Then you also shouldn't be interested in high iLvl gear because you wouldn't be putting it to use anyway. I would be okay with challenging single player content that gives good gear (like normal raid gear or in between normal and heroic gear iLvl wise) but again should never be on the level of Mythic raids or other high end content.

Notice how your argument has a lot of "It should be this way" but pretty much know "This is why it should be this way".

Can you articulate how the game would be made worse if everyone could target BiS gear, rather than just telling us what "should" be.

[Theangryone]

[QUOTE=Sucralose;53559051]They have really tried... mage towers, visions, torghast. Only one was successful but there have been attempts.[/QUOTE

Mage tower was cosmetic and done and over once you got what you wanted. The other two listed here were tied to player power and timegating. That is the issue with WoW and “progression” is its all carrot on a stick design. The whole purpose of the game design is to get better gear to do the content you like easier over and over again. The one metric you can’t account for is fun. Unfortunately, people who view “progression” as the only part of the game that matters still bleed over into random content meant for so called casuals because they feel they “have to because of reasons” and usually end up shitting on that content and people doing it.

[NineSpine]

Hold on here, think about it this way... If I Aedruid vanquished Gigantomax the legendary dragon, I can then get to the legendary chest it is guarding. Which is loot that is far more powerful and epic than killing garden gnomes in a world quest. I can feel it's power when interacting with the world.

Get my point?

How does someone else getting good gear change anything you just said?

[Xilurm]

The only MMO I've played to do open world exploration right is OSRS. WoW is absolutely horrendous in comparison with its bland challengeless repeatable chores with little to no effort put into them, little reward to earn from them, & no feeling of satisfaction to gain from engaging with any of them.

If WoW had open world content worth playing it'd be awesome, but everything is just far too solved & obvious. There's no chance of discovering a random cool quest - they're all on the map. There's no chance you get confused doing the quest - it tells you exactly where to go & what to do. There's no chance of being challenged by the quest - they're designed for people who struggle to use a computer. There's no chance of getting loot from any of it - unless it's a mount, in which case it's a reskin at an =< 1% droprate.

I know people get annoyed when raiders/PvP/dungeoneers call it chore content, but surely people see why - It offers absolutely nothing of value unless they throw a carrot on a stick at the end of it all.

I never played OSRS but I agree with the rest. People just want instant reward without too much hassle, they just wanna log in for the one hour of their day and be done with the content, then repeat that the next day and the next week. I don't know why people think that's fun.

[Adamas102]

Well, I am convinced that people like are grossly over-represented here compared to in-game.
And by "people like you" I mean people that feel entitled to the same rewards for less effort.
A game where rewards are given out regardless of skill/effort is a game that will get boring very fast, both for those at the top and those at the bottom of the skill ladder, because it nullifies one of man's greatest driving forces in all his endeavours - that being work, love, games, sport - and that is striving to achieve a goal.

Oh look, it's the usual bullshit from T-34. If you had ANY experience playing games other than WoW you'd know that most people don't strive for anything when playing games. Yours is a super niche mentality that is definitely over-represented on these forums since a lot of WoW's endgame content is geared towards very repetitive, grindy play that isn't very fun if you don't "win". Most people just play games for socializing and maybe for a quick dopamine rush, and outside of a professional or tournament setting where prizes are on the line winning and losing aren't a major concern for most.

[NineSpine]

Oh look, it's the usual bullshit from T-34. If you had ANY experience playing games other than WoW you'd know that most people don't strive for anything when playing games. Yours is a super niche mentality that is definitely over-represented on these forums since a lot of WoW's endgame content is geared towards very repetitive, grindy play that isn't very fun if you don't "win". Most people just play games for socializing and maybe for a quick dopamine rush, and outside of a professional or tournament setting where prizes are on the line winning and losing aren't a major concern for most.

You can't get through to people like that. They legitimately think getting the world 2000th denathrius kill makes them equivalent to being in the NFL.

[Rageonit]

PvP should give the best gear. It is far more skilled than killing some scripted pve encounter.

Pet Battles should offer the best gear. It's like PvP, but more challenging - it's a battle of minds, not quick fingers!

[Toybox]

I never played OSRS but I agree with the rest. People just want instant reward without too much hassle, they just wanna log in for the one hour of their day and be done with the content, then repeat that the next day and the next week. I don't know why people think that's fun.

Same. If I were going to spend so much time doung mundane tasks & nothing else I'd get a weekend job at Amazon & get paid a few quid for it

I think WoW is just too stuck in its ways to see any serious change. After 15 years of dailies they're not going anywhere now, & the game is too reliant on keeping people subscribed for more than a month at a time for a full on exploration-driven experience to work, as there would be no way to create enough content to keep people going.

WoW will just never have the same pull again. It's never going to be fresh - it's going to be the same things, over and over.

Pet Battles should offer the best gear. It's like PvP, but more challenging - it's a battle of minds, not quick fingers!

Battle of stun RNG & the same 5 comps you mean... Sounds like TBC arena

[deenman]

These are other humans, if they worked weeks or months accumulating tokens/collecting equipment, it doesn't matter where they got the gear from, let it be from M+ or Raiding.

This scuffed mindset is trully baffling me. After extensively playing Destiny 2, I want nothing more but for other people to succeed, be geared, and enjoy activities together. Bungie doesn't discriminate casual players, if you put in play time you get rewarded.

rewards should be based on the effort and the challenge put in

this isnt discrimination,this entire concept of participation trophy is pure toxicity to us as a species

[Gadzooks]

This is the portion that the devs and creative leads need to pushback on. This is the same toxic BS that Alex Asfraibi instilled in the company, and still persists today. With the current system they're cutting their noses off to spite their face. If you add a cap on a badge system that could lead to BiS then there's no chore feeling for anyone espeically if you max it out after a raid, a few M+ runs, and have a longer grind if you're solo.

Problem here is other players have this perception of "work" similar to why companies discourage people from sharing information on salary. It leads to drama that's largely irrelevant. (The real reason why companies do that is because it's an anti-labor organizing method, but I'm just spouting the corporate BS)

As I said many times before the only person consistent on these boards is Snorlax, as he advocates for a smaller playerbase, which is what the current system creates.

Afrasiabi didn't create the gear culture, he was a quest/narrative designer, then creative director, ie. Metzen's job. That "toxic BS' was in the game before he even started working at Blizzard, or was even high ranked enough to be in charge of any decision making.

The part of the team that designs gear/skills/classes is a distinct one, that he wasn't part of. For example, during Cata, Greg Street was in charge of systems design, afrasiabi was the head world designer. In Wrath, Afrasiabi was lead quest designer. Street was the first "systems" lead, from what I recall he was the first person to consolidate all of that, as design before that was spread across different parts of the team.

If you're gonna be angry about someone, at least learn who was actually responsible.

[Akillahz]

Notice how your argument has a lot of "It should be this way" but pretty much know "This is why it should be this way".

Can you articulate how the game would be made worse if everyone could target BiS gear, rather than just telling us what "should" be.

Simply because the people who do put time/effort into the game will feel cheated. It's why the cosmetic rewards from MoP/WoD challenge mode dungeons and the Legion mage tower were unobtainable after the expansion. These things were challenging content at the time, people put time and effort into improving themselves, getting better at the game to beat this content and feel accomplished + are rewarded with transmogs, titles, mounts,... They can proudly wear/use. If they kept these rewards obtainable in the expansion after, it would be trivial content, everyone would be able to do it without effort and still get rewarded with the same cosmetics which would cause these cosmetics to lose in value/prestige, especially to the person who did it when it was challenging, they will feel like they wasted their time and energy trying so hard. And it's the same with high iLvl gear. People who spent many hours raiding for weeks to clear Mythic raids for example will feel cheated when someone who logs in for 30 minutes to complete their daily calling has the same gear as them after some time.

Like say you have a job and work 40 hours a week. You have a coworker that works 20 hours a week, would you be fine with that person getting the same monthly salary as you do? Or you participate in a sports tournament or something you trained many hours for and another contestant didnt put any effort in it at all, you win the contest and then the organizers say "you know what? Everyone is a winner for participating and everyone gets the same medal!" Wouldn't that make you feel bad? Like you wasted time and energy? Well its the same in WoW imo.

On top of that, people would quit faster if they could easily get BiS because once you are BiS there is no progression for your character anymore which for an mmo is boring imo.

Why is it that people who do casual content want BiS gear, like for what? How does it benefit them when the content they do is easily doable at like 210 iLvl or so? Like their content would be even easier and done faster so less play time which is bad for a game.

[Itisamuh]

Simple, either make gear attainable by any means, or make gear irrelevant in casual content.

[Ekis]

Guess you have never read any LFR thread ever when they want it removed or not give up those sweet epics 40 ilvls below the ones they get.

Nah I was around during that time. Most people who advocated for LFR also wanted gear similar to normal raids from it because of reasons such as "having a life/job/family" or any of the other reasons that most people on this planet deal with yet make the effort to somehow manage those on top of being part of scheduled guild activities. I distinctly remember being called a no-lifer for pointing that out back then even though I'm a married father with 4 kids with a then high-salary job yet found the time to raid hardcore.

To the original point of the thread, they should really go back to the basics: playing the game how you want is a choice, but you shouldn't expect the best gear while never having to do the content at all. Casuals at least back in earlier expansions didn't get the "best" gear in the game, but they got the "best" gear for what they were doing (i.e. tier 0.5 was the best gear in vanilla one could get without stepping foot in a raid; those who wanted to progress further would then make the choice to raid for better gear or PvP grind to all hell).

If they want to cater to all, they need to make gearing relevant to the kind of content being done that way all parties are happy. Mythic+ gear should be tailored to do Mythic+ and raid gear likewise to Raiding with little overlap to either encourage a player to step into different forms of content without invalidating one or the other. Like Mythic+ gear having set bonuses that only activate in Mythic+ and likewise raiding set bonuses that are only useful in raids; they'd give stats otherwise in other content the average player would dip their toes in, but excel in places where they're meant to be in (likely a logistical nightmare for Blizzard, I know).

A "casual" could then in theory get the best gear for the content they'd prefer to do and likewise the more "hardcore" can get theirs without feeling like they NEED to do Mythic+ or raid if they don't want to.

[arkanon]

Guess you have never read any LFR thread ever when they want it removed or not give up those sweet epics 40 ilvls below the ones they get.

I have seen some people argue that the loot rewarded from LFR is too high, yes. Im confident there are some people who have suggested it should reward less than epic, just like some people have suggested the best gear in the game should be fully obtainable by a casual player 2 weeks into a new expansion - as in a FULL set of BiS gear within 2 weeks of day 1.

[Aedruid]

PvP should give the best gear. It is far more skilled than killing some scripted pve encounter.

I agree with this statement other than end bosses in Mythic Raids, also for PVP, it needs to be top brackets. Could you imagine getting a legendary weapon along with the glad mount?

- - - Updated - - -

How does someone else getting good gear change anything you just said?

Because someone killing squirrels in Hillsbrad should not be as powerful as a dragon slayer. While you're crafting a helm from squirrel hides, I'm looting well crafted weapons of fallen warriors trying to kill said dragon. This should appear cosmetically, title-wise, and I should be more powerful when facing off against the guy killing squirrels. I, as a player, should see that, and it should feel good, and the guy killing squirrels should see the eipcness and want to achieve it himself. Creates motivation to be better.

[netherflame]

Progression is never given.

If you want it, you need to pay for it in some way, either through effort or real money. That's how it works. Just because you pay a sub doesn't mean you're entitled to millions of gold for free either.

Just because you pay a sub doesn't entitle you to be able to instantly fly in every zone or equip two legendaries either but that doesn't stop people from complaining about that either does it. Zinger.

Nothing in this game should be given to players without some input, not flying, not gear, not mounts, NOTHING. Put in the time to earn new things.

[Ekis]

So, you're suggesting that by catering only to hardcores, casuals will stay subbed?

This is tired and ridiculous nonsense and doesn't work.

To be fair, it's also what caused WoW to continuously grow so don't shoot it down as nonsense without backing that up.

WoW continuously grew during a time where the game was focused on the hardcore. So few players got to see Naxx, Black Temple, Sunwell Plateau, and hell even Ulduar/Icecrown Citadel when it was relevant (how many guilds completed ICC before the buff was added?). Yet the game consistently grew even though few reached the mountain top.

I don't think they're saying ONLY cater to hardcores, rather offer incentives and the best of the best offered that. I didn't clear past BWL back in 2005-2006, but you bet I wanted that sexy Naxx gear I saw people with sitting around in Orgrimmar.

My analogy to this is simple: Not everybody can be Michael Jordan but plenty of people aspired to be like him if not better. Just because we all play basketball at the nearest court doesn't mean we're deserving of an NBA player's salary and prestige; some people have a natural talent and others have to work for it. But if because everybody felt entitled to what an NBA player or Olympian gained because they picked up a ball and were promptly given that, then there would be no value to aspiring to become such.

Scarcity breeds value in this case.

[NineSpine]

Simply because the people who do put time/effort into the game will feel cheated. It's why the cosmetic rewards from MoP/WoD challenge mode dungeons and the Legion mage tower were unobtainable after the expansion. These things were challenging content at the time, people put time and effort into improving themselves, getting better at the game to beat this content and feel accomplished + are rewarded with transmogs, titles, mounts,... They can proudly wear/use. If they kept these rewards obtainable in the expansion after, it would be trivial content, everyone would be able to do it without effort and still get rewarded with the same cosmetics which would cause these cosmetics to lose in value/prestige, especially to the person who did it when it was challenging, they will feel like they wasted their time and energy trying so hard. And it's the same with high iLvl gear. People who spent many hours raiding for weeks to clear Mythic raids for example will feel cheated when someone who logs in for 30 minutes to complete their daily calling has the same gear as them after some time.

Like say you have a job and work 40 hours a week. You have a coworker that works 20 hours a week, would you be fine with that person getting the same monthly salary as you do? Or you participate in a sports tournament or something you trained many hours for and another contestant didnt put any effort in it at all, you win the contest and then the organizers say "you know what? Everyone is a winner for participating and everyone gets the same medal!" Wouldn't that make you feel bad? Like you wasted time and energy? Well its the same in WoW imo.

On top of that, people would quit faster if they could easily get BiS because once you are BiS there is no progression for your character anymore which for an mmo is boring imo.

Why is it that people who do casual content want BiS gear, like for what? How does it benefit them when the content they do is easily doable at like 210 iLvl or so? Like their content would be even easier and done faster so less play time which is bad for a game.

You lost the argument when you compared a video game to a job. We don’t want the video game to be like a job. That’s entirely the problem, and why you are wrong.

It’s the same reason that if Netflix made me watch a movie I didn’t like in order to “earn” the right to watch one I do like, I wouldn’t pay for Netflix. Would you take someone seriously if they said “no, it’s so much more FUN because it’s like A JOB where you have to do things you don’t like in order to earn the right to the fun!”

[catalystical]

Nah I was around during that time. Most people who advocated for LFR also wanted gear similar to normal raids from it because of reasons such as "having a life/job/family" or any of the other reasons that most people on this planet deal with yet make the effort to somehow manage those on top of being part of scheduled guild activities. I distinctly remember being called a no-lifer for pointing that out back then even though I'm a married father with 4 kids with a then high-salary job yet found the time to raid hardcore.

To the original point of the thread, they should really go back to the basics: playing the game how you want is a choice, but you shouldn't expect the best gear while never having to do the content at all. Casuals at least back in earlier expansions didn't get the "best" gear in the game, but they got the "best" gear for what they were doing (i.e. tier 0.5 was the best gear in vanilla one could get without stepping foot in a raid; those who wanted to progress further would then make the choice to raid for better gear or PvP grind to all hell).

If they want to cater to all, they need to make gearing relevant to the kind of content being done that way all parties are happy. Mythic+ gear should be tailored to do Mythic+ and raid gear likewise to Raiding with little overlap to either encourage a player to step into different forms of content without invalidating one or the other. Like Mythic+ gear having set bonuses that only activate in Mythic+ and likewise raiding set bonuses that are only useful in raids; they'd give stats otherwise in other content the average player would dip their toes in, but excel in places where they're meant to be in (likely a logistical nightmare for Blizzard, I know).

A "casual" could then in theory get the best gear for the content they'd prefer to do and likewise the more "hardcore" can get theirs without feeling like they NEED to do Mythic+ or raid if they don't want to.

This. IMO there are a few ways we can slice this cake.

A) People with the drive to do things with competitiveness on time and difficulty
B) The same but want to do difficult things at their own cadence
C) People who just want to do content and don't care about both difficulty and competitiveness

And the overarching principle is that whatever effort we put into the game, it has to be worth the time (and money) spent.

Give us filthy casuals low end currency to get low end gear with a tiny bit of high end currency. This way we won't be buying high end gear near the early/mid stages of the patch, and by the time we deck ourselves out with low end gear, we can use the high end currency that we've accumulated to get higher end gear at the later stages of the patch. We've done this before with valor and justice back in Wrath.