"Arthas did Nothing wrong" What about the Scourging of Lordaeron??

[Rockefellah]

So Sylvanas is irredeemable because she burned a tree during a time of War, but Arthas who genocided entire kingdoms? Nooo nooo, he is just a misunderstood hero! There is nothing remotely evil about having a goal about killing all life in your home kingdom then chopping said people up and turning them into Abominations. No no, Arthas is a good guy. Sylvanas however? She must suffer in the Maw!!

I don't think you can compare Arthas and Sylvanas in this way. We do not know from either two how much they were in control of their actions, how much was their agency, but misguided/misled and how much was a conscious decision.

[cparle87]

While under the effect of the said cursed sword.
That he is carrying back from northrend while under the effect of the curse. Someone could say he was cursed the moment he touched the cursed sword. The same sword he used to kill the dreadlord

The sword that literally ate his soul, making it extremely suspect whether he can be held responsible for anything he did after. Imagine getting locked up in a cell while some dude wearing your face who sounds like you murders half the world. He gets killed, killing you too, and the first thing you see after getting out of the cell is your teacher throwing you into hell cause of what that dude did.

[Dellis0991]

Why the hell does this topic keep coming up. Stratholme was a shitshow and there probably wasn't any right and or wrong answer. Arthas was wrong for everything after Stratholme though.

[Aresk]

It's not about "having done something bad". They were literal murderers. They would have killed Arthas and his men had someone paid them to do it. I'm sure Arthas didn't have a hard time making that decision, and most people wouldn't have. Especially when the survival of your own people is on the line. Would you sacrifice some hitmen for hire, in order to protect your women and your children at home? If not, then you're a bad leader.

You do realize that he killed them not because they were "murderers," a fact he welcomed and eagerly paid them for, but because he was covering up his treasonous ploy to sabotage the king's army and disregard a direct order, right? And even if that were not the case, one cannot simply go around killing people because they might in the future kill some innocent person on another continent across the ocean, never mind the fact that you've never shown that the mercenaries had attacked any noncombatant.

And? That's not a good reason? Have you played the mission, where if you don't kill them, they'll turn into undead? How do you solve that mission? How do you succeed in that mission other than by slaughtering everyone? Was there a secret way of winning the mission? Maybe by letting Mal'Ganis turn everyone into undead and then getting buttfucked?

The mission is built with the player having the option of killing citizens or waiting for them to turn and killing undead. Canonically, Arthas didn't wait, but per the scope of the mission, he could have. Furthermore, the mission is structured to only allow one victory condition: we know people were successfully evacuated from Stratholme, so Arthas could have focused on that instead, but he chose not to. Even within the mission, you can take out the undead base and contain Mal'ganis at his altar until he runs out of gold to revive, with no people changing into undead in the interim, but it won't lead to a victory screen. I'm not saying his decision was unreasonable given what he knew at the time, but that still doesn't mean it's the only way of dealing with what happened.

[Raisei]

Why do the hell does this topic keep coming up. Stratholme was a shitshow and there probably wasn't any right and or wrong answer. Arthas was wrong for everything after Stratholme though.

Mainly because it is one of the few instances of an Alliance character doing something questionable, hence the Horde posters will die on the hill that this makes the Alliance just as rotten as the Horde is. Again and again. Sometimes it is The Purge of Dalaran, sometimes this.The background and the reasons don't matter at all. The Hordes just can't accept that they are playing the evil faction despite the heaps of evidence.

[huth]

How? They had no cure for it. What do you mean "see if there's a cure"? Take a one-week trip down to capital city and knock on the door of the local alchemist to see if he has something in store to cure undeath? So they could come back to a fully mobilized zombie Stratholme, that has already infected the entire region? There was no cure. There was no hope for a cure. There still is no cure, even now decades later. The entire point for the Forsaken to join the Horde in WoW was to find a cure for their undeath. And now they've pretty much stopped caring about it.

You don't cure undead. You kill them. And if you try to cure people infected with the plague, before they turn into undead, all that will happen is probably that you will turn undead as well. Congratulations. You just made everything worse.

People suggesting Arthas could've "looked for another solution" haven't invested a single minute into thinking about this.

No, they spent more time thinking about it than you. Meanwhile, Arthas didn't spend a single second thinking, and simply charged into things after burning all bridges without need. Even just explaining to Uther why killing them may be the only practical recourse would likely have resulted in a better outcome.

Arthas was an idiot who kept acting without thinking throughout the campaign.

There's also the option of quarantining the city while they research potential solutions. If those people were already doomed, it wouldn't have made much of a difference but would have made further cases easier to deal with.

That you can't think of possible ways to handle the solution doesn't mean there aren't any. You're making the same mistake as Arthas then.

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The sword that literally ate his soul, making it extremely suspect whether he can be held responsible for anything he did after. Imagine getting locked up in a cell while some dude wearing your face who sounds like you murders half the world. He gets killed, killing you too, and the first thing you see after getting out of the cell is your teacher throwing you into hell cause of what that dude did.

Fully. We've since learned that control of his actions was not taken from him at all. At best, his judgement was affected, but the Alliance campaign in WC3 showed that there wasn't much to make worse.

[cparle87]

Fully. We've since learned that control of his actions was not taken from him at all. At best, his judgement was affected, but the Alliance campaign in WC3 showed that there wasn't much to make worse.

There's a huge line between killing mercenaries who are in the way of revenge and killing your father and teacher and wiping your country off the face of the Earth with a smile on your face.

As far as Arthas' soul was concerned one moment he was picking up the sword the next Uther was swooping down to toss him into the Maw. Everything that happened in between those two events was outside his control. We saw this from when Uther's soul was reunited and he had to deal with the sensations and memories of being killed by death knight Arthas mere moments ago, because to a part of his soul it was.

[Feanoro]

No, they spent more time thinking about it than you. Meanwhile, Arthas didn't spend a single second thinking, and simply charged into things after burning all bridges without need.

Or canonically, he had traveled all over Lordaeron, had seen first hand how the plague worked over and over, and knew those people were already dead.

Even just explaining to Uther why killing them may be the only practical recourse would likely have resulted in a better outcome.

Uther strolled up as Johnny Come-lately with a self righteous stick up his ass, knowing next to nothing of the plague or its effects, and didn't even try to understand why Arthas would make that call. Sure, Arthas could have taken some time to explain, but Uther could have asked more questions and tried to defuse the situation like the wise mentor he was supposed to be.

There's also the option of quarantining the city while they research potential solutions.

Except research had already been underway for weeks by the Kirin Tor and others. Stratholme was one of the largest cities in Lordaeron, and its population as undead would make up a small army. Arthas was leading a small force that couldn't possibly contain such an army, and if even one undead escaped the quarantine, it could wipe out surrounding farms and towns.

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Mainly because it is one of the few instances of an Alliance character doing something questionable, hence the Horde posters will die on the hill that this makes the Alliance just as rotten as the Horde is. Again and again. Sometimes it is The Purge of Dalaran, sometimes this.The background and the reasons don't matter at all. The Hordes just can't accept that they are playing the evil faction despite the heaps of evidence.

Pretty much this. Even Blizzard had to fall back on Arthas to find something for Anduin to mewl over "Alliance does bad things too!"

[Progenitor Aquarius]

The issue is that we kill very op. But to our allies.

We killed Cordana that we knew she was poisoned and it wasn't her fault.
We killed civilians who surrendered due to a tantrum.
We killed rogues who were just doing their job.
We killed Razakatan who was the one who didn't want to join the Horde. Just in case.

If we can kill so many who are really innocent that we know they are innocent and we still kill them as if nothing happened. Why is it so difficult to kill someone who is guilty?

Guilty of what? Who is guilty?

[Ehrenpanzer]

Arthas and Sylvanas are irredeemable.
But when you say that Sylvanas can be redeemed because her weapon is divided and you forget that Arthas's soul is also divided.

To redeem Sylvanas is to redeem Arthas in the end. It's more this whole "revenge is bad" message. I meant that Uther should go get Arthas out of the jaws.

_______
The Stratholme theme was justified. He was the "lesser evil" and then he has to go kill the culprit and when he takes the sword... Boom his soul splits and he is no longer guilty of anything that follows.

Arthas's "crime" is to burn some ships to keep his troops in front. If that's his crime "Keep the troops in front" many current leaders many current leaders are villains.

Arthas CHOSE his fate though, Sylv had it forced onto her.

[TheRevenantHero]

Mainly because it is one of the few instances of an Alliance character doing something questionable, hence the Horde posters will die on the hill that this makes the Alliance just as rotten as the Horde is. Again and again. Sometimes it is The Purge of Dalaran, sometimes this.The background and the reasons don't matter at all. The Hordes just can't accept that they are playing the evil faction despite the heaps of evidence.

Yes, just like how Alliance fans will justify every single atrocious thing the Alliance does. Genn Greymane is literally a war criminal but Alliance fans don't really care.

[Kallisto]

I can't find where I saw the dev message but here's a bit from uther and a wowhead link on how it works.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/uther-d...-323751?page=7

If what Uther says is true then two things need to be explained by Uther

Both from Halls of Reflection

" Jaina walks to the sword
Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: Frostmourne: the blade that destroyed our kingdom...
Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: Stand back! Touch that blade and your soul will be scarred for all eternity! I must attempt to commune with the spirits locked away within Frostmourne. Give me space. Back up, please.
Uther the Lightbringer says: Jaina! Could it truly be you?
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Uther! Dear Uther! I... I'm so sorry.
Uther the Lightbringer says: Jaina, you haven't much time. The Lich King sees what the sword sees. He will be here shortly.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Arthas is here? Maybe I...
Uther the Lightbringer says: No, girl. Arthas is not here. Arthas is merely a presence within the Lich King's mind. A dwindling presence...
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: But Uther, if there's any hope of reaching Arthas. I... I must try.
Uther the Lightbringer says: Jaina, listen to me. You must destroy the Lich King. You cannot reason with him. He will kill you and your allies and raise you all as powerful soldiers of the Scourge.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Tell me how, Uther? How do I destroy my prince? My...
Uther the Lightbringer says: Snap out of it, girl. You must destroy the Lich King at the place where he merged with Ner'zhul - atop the spire, at the Frozen Throne. It is the only way.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: You're right, Uther. Forgive me. I... I don't know what got a hold of me. We will deliver this information to the King and the knights that battle the Scourge within Icecrown Citadel.
Uther the Lightbringer says: There is... something else that you should know about the Lich King. Control over the Scourge must never be lost. Even if you were to strike down the Lich King, another would have to take his place. For without the control of its master, the Scourge would run rampant across the world - destroying all living things.
Uther the Lightbringer says: A grand sacrifice by a noble soul...
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Who could bear such a burden?
Uther shakes his head.
Uther the Lightbringer says: I do not know, Jaina. I suspect that the piece of Arthas that might be left inside the Lich King is all that holds the Scourge from annihilating Azeroth.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Then maybe there is still hope...
The far door opens and the Lich King appears!
Uther the Lightbringer says: No, Jaina! ARRRRRRGHHHH... He... He is coming. You... You must..."

And

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The...ction#Alliance

[Ielenia]

Commit Genocide on your own People

To protect the rest of the kingdom from being infected with an incurable malady that damns you into undeath. Important context is important.

Hire mercenaries, to burn your mens ships
Kill said Hired mercenaries

I could be mistaken, but didn't that happen AFTER Frostmourne was taken?

Take an Evil blade and leave your friend for dead
Return home and kill your father
Proceed to genocide multiple kingdoms.

Everything after Arthas took Frostmourne is not really his fault, at least not entirely, as from that point on he was under the control of the Lich King.

So Sylvanas is irredeemable because she burned a tree during a time of War, but Arthas who genocided entire kingdoms?

"Burned a tree" vs "genice entire kingdoms". The bias is way too strong for an honest conversation. Good day.

[Jastall]

Stratholme isn't the point of no return because it was wrong. It was basically the least bad scenario. Stratholme is the point of no return because of what it teaches Arthas; that he can't rely on anyone, that he's right and that the harshest measures are the best. It's also where his motivation starts to seriously shift from saving his people, to obtaining personal vengeance on Mal'ganis. Rushing to Northrend against all reason, murdering his mercs, trapping his men there, not giving a fuck about Muradin; all these things were done pre-Fortstmourne and with the sole intention of obtaining this revenge, he outright says so himself in the briefing of mission 8. It's no longer about protecting anything, else he wouldn't have disbanded the Paladins and taken a sizeable portion of Lordearon's army to a frozen wasteland while there's zombies all over the place.

The LK's control over Arthas is also overstated. Him becoming a Death Knight changes him, but not entirely. He still has the same flaws and personality quirks, only amplified tenfold. Him later being able to "kill" Ner'zul after putting on the Helm shows he was at least partially in control the entire time. So he's not really all that innocent of all the shit he pulled as a DK which included killing his father and king, invading nearby kingdoms at the behest of the very people who ravaged his homeland and hunting down his own people for sport.

Incidentally, that doesn't make him a bad character. Arthas doing bad things for understandable reason, then shifting ever closer to villainy is one of Warcraft's best story arcs. Pretending he was 100% right about everything and that he's a completely different person that cannot be judged the moment he touches Frostmourne makes him a boring, one-note, Sylvanas-esque plot device, not a more interesting character.

[TheRevenantHero]

To protect the rest of the kingdom from being infected with an incurable malady that damns you into undeath. Important context is important.


I could be mistaken, but didn't that happen AFTER Frostmourne was taken?


Everything after Arthas took Frostmourne is not really his fault, at least not entirely, as from that point on he was under the control of the Lich King.


"Burned a tree" vs "genice entire kingdoms". The bias is way too strong for an honest conversation. Good day.

Arthas definitely was not under control of the Lich King. As a matter of fact, Arthas was the one in control. "In the direct aftermath of the conflict, Ner'zhul merged with Arthas, who largely consumed his spirit to rule as the Lich King alone.[22][23][24][25] However, the consumption was not complete. Ner'zhul was buried and struggled to wake up to regain control. Arthas drew on the orc's guilt over his role in the downfall of his race to trap him into a downward spiral of despair until nothing remained but a wail of sorrow."

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ner'zhul?so=search

Also, the destruction of Teldrassil wasn't genocide because Sylvanas did it as an act of terrorism and (at least at the time before Blizzard forgot their own writing) wasn't committing genocide. Genocide requires the systematic eradication of an entire race, culture, or creed. Sylvanas didn't campaign across Kalimdor wiping out night elves so therefore it's not genocide. It's just terrorism and mass murder.

[Kallisto]

Sylvanas literally flared up the War again after everyone joined together to fight the Legion. It wasn't just wartime. And her reason for the attack was to pump souls into the Maw to empower the Jailer's war machine.

Arthas was attempting to end an infection with Stratholme, his choices were limited on what he could do. Was his action moral? But what other choice did he have? Quarantine Stratholme and let everyone turn into undead to spread the plague of undeath?

I am not saying he was morally correct, but his actions had reason. Everything after taking up the blade wasn't fully his choice.

The war started when Gen went into a blood lust and attacked the ruler of a nation. That's a declaration of war even if Anduin didn't want it. The fact that Anduin never threw Genn to the horde was enough to show that even if he was against it he was either unwilling or unable to stop it.

(Or are we supposed to forget that happened like we're supposed to forget Varian's declaration of war on the horde after undercity back in wrath)

[TheRevenantHero]

The war started when Gen went into a blood lust and attacked the ruler of a nation. That's a declaration of war even if Anduin didn't want it. The fact that Anduin never threw Genn to the horde was enough to show that even if he was against it he was either unwilling or unable to stop it.

(Or are we supposed to forget that happened like we're supposed to forget Varian's declaration of war on the horde after undercity back in wrath)

Nobody ever wants to acknowledge this. Genn committed a war crime. He attacked the Horde while the Alliance and Horde were in an armistice. He used Alliance lives as fodder for his person vendetta. He got Alliance soldiers killed and an airship destroyed because his son decided to go "Get down Mr President!" and took an arrow meant for Genn.

[Feanoro]

The fact that Anduin never threw Genn to the horde was enough to show

That Anduin has absolutely no authority to do so. The High King role is "supreme military commander" not emperor. Sorry you're used to the Legion's "absolute dictator and his mindless slaves" structure.

[TheRevenantHero]

That Anduin has absolutely no authority to do so. The High King role is "supreme military commander" not emperor. Sorry you're used to the Legion's "absolute dictator and his mindless slaves" structure.

Um....as "supreme military commander" he absolutely could have thrown Genn to the Horde for committing a war crime during an armistice. As both King and High Commander, it was absolutely within his authority to do so.

[Feanoro]

Um....as "supreme military commander" he absolutely could have thrown Genn to the Horde for committing a war crime during an armistice. As both King and High Commander, it was absolutely within his authority to do so.

Dwight Eisenhower could not have arrested Winston Churchill. Sorry you don't understand how alliances work, let alone what a war crime is.

Also, mind if we get off the Horde apologist shtick and back to Arthas, the actual topic?