Was Mythic + a bad idea ?

[Coniferous]

I dont know, the timer has somewhat grown on me. Most of the m+ runs the timer isnt a issue, but when the clock ticks down it can get intense. Last night my grp cleared mists with 20 secs to spare. Quite intense last couple of minutes. Made everyone play 100% and really push it with pulls and all, when we realised the timer would become an issue.

Timer is fun as a one off challenge, like the MOP challenge modes. But they intend m+ to be the primary form of progression for players who can't raid, and it's not fun for every single run you do to be a timed run where a wipe at the wrong time ruins the whole thing.

It was also more fun during legion before the community optimized it. In Legion you could go in and just kinda do your thing and not be super worried about exactly hitting 100%. But by BFA it was already over. I was pugging in the second week of BFA, before m+ was even released, and I had people complaining that I wasn't optimizing the route and skipping skippable trash packs. Literally my second run ever in the dungeon. And it hasn't gotten better - last season's affix with the precise timing for each miniboss just made it worse.

[Cwimge]

It's directly led to wow becoming a more toxic and joyless game. RIO, melee stigma and vault unfairness have all come straight from turning challenge modes into something else for the sweatmongers to obsess over

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Absolutely.

Thanks to M+, dungeons are worth the time investment for the team that's making them. It is an endless source of challenging endgame content that everyone can do at a level that best suits their capabilities, while leaving space for improving oneself and eventually pushing on. Perhaps the most important aspect of it is that it requires a 5-man team, rather than 20 or 40 as raids used to.

It also allows players who prefer the endgame PvE content to use their skills to acquire gold by selling their services. I remember way back when I didn't want to raid because I'd have to farm so much stuff to come prepared for them. Come Legion and I was able to cover min. two weeks of expenses with a single boost.

The boosting communities have gone a bit over the top with the commercialization of boosts, but I guess that was the natural path for it. Everything about it that could be considered as bad is something that the community has brought upon itself, from seeking the FOTM comps for a measly 15 to leaving in the middle of a run.

More proof of what mythic plus has done to this game. Once upon a time boosters had the decency not to shout it

[Argorwal]

It's not a tiny advantage. That spec is just broken at sustained aoe; they throw a blizzard down and it resets the orb fast if it keeps hitting multiple targets and multiple targets are very reliably up in 5mans above 20; but in a larger gametype that thing might not be as important because you might want to cover both that and other utilities you now don't bring.

5man is just too smol; game has like 36 or something specs and it can only bring 5; 20man is obviously a superior gametype to reduce that problem and 10man would also be good to be back at hard mode for that reason (on its own instances to keep it not interfering at competition).

Did frost even get any mechanical changes in 9.1?

It seems like some tuning tweaks was all it took to change the mage meta from fire in 9.0 to frost in 9.1.

Which of course just goes back to the point of how the top end will always chase a meta. But that type of optimization at these bleeding edge +27 keys is so far beyond how the game works up to +15 which is is where the gear stops. There is no reason to toss an incredibly popular gameplay because at top levels, lightyears away past when gear stops, a tight meta forms (which will always happen anyway).

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It's directly led to wow becoming a more toxic and joyless game. RIO, melee stigma and vault unfairness have all come straight from turning challenge modes into something else for the sweatmongers to obsess over

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More proof of what mythic plus has done to this game. Once upon a time boosters had the decency not to shout it

I take it you haven't played classic or TBC classic...

[epigramx]

Did frost even get any mechanical changes in 9.1?

It seems like some tuning tweaks was all it took to change the mage meta from fire in 9.0 to frost in 9.1.

Some people just take a while to catch up. E.g. I made a lot of people angry at mage discord after I mentioned simcraft itself shows frost extremely OP as you add patchwerks to the simulation (we're talking about something like TRIPLE the dps compared to other specs if you reach a ridiculous amount of patchwerks on a long simulation). They couldn't believe it because they never run the sim (and their consensus is still "everything is viable" (which is bad advice on high keys)) but I bet some hard core people doing those world records and always run a frost mage have run the sim.

[starstationprofm]

Mythic+ is literally the best PvE system they ever added. Look at games like FF14 where Dungeons don't mean shit and they're just some annoyances you do once and never think of again.

[Zodiark]

So you think a system which many people enjoy and which offers a whole new approach to endgame and which encourages people to engage socially in a MMORPG (which should also always be about socialising) was a bad idea? Back in wotlk dungeon content was so easy that you joined a grp and just masspulled and ran brainafk through the dungeon, often without even seeing one word in the chat. M+ has a lot of potential to change that, but the problem is people are too lazy and/or afraid to actually talk to each other. Half of my friendlist are people I met in m+, it happens regularly that we play more than one key if our pug run went better than expected.
And this is why I think m+ is the best expansion feature that WOW ever came up with. It kinda "forced" me to make new connections because in my guild many people weren't as interested in pushing keys and so I made friends with people allover europe...which is awesome.

Well in america Mate we don't talk to anyone. Once in a blue moon someone makes a comment. I've added friends who I met in M+ Groups as well over the years. So what? I've almost never spoken to them again. When we run groups no one hits anyone else up. All players care about is running as fast as possible. Which isn't conducive to getting to know one another. Yes I too have run multiple M+ keys IF the run was good. I've also had MANY groups fall apart if the run isn't good and a player drops out, etc. Once again a flaw in the design of the system.

Pushing systems that are tied to player power with the objective is , go go go! Only creates an environment that doesn't foster positive player interactions.

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Mythic+ is literally the best PvE system they ever added. Look at games like FF14 where Dungeons don't mean shit and they're just some annoyances you do once and never think of again.

Are you crazy? Seriously? FFXIV dungeons are something you run and get either good XP bonuses to level up ALT jobs, OR you gain tokens to use for gear. So your time is never wasted and there is always a reason to run older dungeons. NOT to mention that people still run them to collect gear for Glamours/Transmogs. But then again that would mean you would have had to have been playing FFXIV for a while and had leveled up several jobs. If you only played the game for the MSQ on ONE job and had no interest in creating new fun looks for your character then yes, you pretty much just run the dungeon and move on. STILL at higher levels the dungeons usually have relevant loot and tokens tied to them for end game gear as you do them.

[Amariw]

It was a great idea, essentially saving dungeon content which became very stale and trivial and turning it into its own mode, fit for casuals and hardcores alike. In MoP and WoD you either went Challenge Mode or dungeons were a clownfiesta.

The fact its much less of a logistic hurdle then raids is also a huge bonus.

. That said, it developed some shortcomings over time, such as the pressure and toxicity of pugs. I believe some of those can be remedied by, say, making keys not lose a level on a failed timer run

But even considering the disadvantages, i believe its a solid system who's pros outweigh its cons.

[Zodiark]

Why does it have to be competitive? This kind of thinking is why we can't have nice things anymore because it will inevitably get ruined by people being competitive crying about balance, loot and things being unfair.

A dungeon crawling mode is nice for the people who like the RPG part of MMORPG.

Yeah I would agree. It should be about FUN, and Exploration. Looking into the little nooks and crannies that often get overlooked! The design of WoW's dungeons has progressively gotten smaller and faster and more streamlined over the years, cutting out much of the running around and exploring that was key to a lot of older dungeon models like blackrock mountain, and Uldaman, etc.

[Twdft]

Yeah I would agree. It should be about FUN, and Exploration. Looking into the little nooks and crannies that often get overlooked! The design of WoW's dungeons has progressively gotten smaller and faster and more streamlined over the years, cutting out much of the running around and exploring that was key to a lot of older dungeon models like blackrock mountain, and Uldaman, etc.

How often have you done Tazavesh so far?

[epigramx]

Mythic+ is literally the best PvE system they ever added.

It's objectively broken. Game has like 36 specs and it only gets 5; it creates extremist metas; e.g. the same spec in all world records of the past few months.

They should reduce 5man instances by 2 and add 2 10man hard mode instances so there's a middle ground between the two extremes of 20man and 5.

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remedied by, say, making keys not lose a level on a failed timer run

They can't do that, because it will make rage-quits by the key holders easy; a perfectionist will be easily obnoxious; on the very first pull they'd leave to retry another group.

If you do hate the timer: ask for its removal; but that's not m+ but basically a single hard mode; because m+(progressive difficulty) would take forever otherwise.

[paxen]

How often have you done Tazavesh so far?

Man, Tazavesh is such a sad story. I've done it three times, one of them halfway, the other two for completing normal and hard modes. It's a great instance, but once you've beaten it there's no game reason to go back. No gear. No harder challenges. Just replaying it to see it again.

But I'm looking forward to it joining the M+ rotation in 9.2, because then we'll actually get to run the dungeon again!

[Daish]

It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.

the timer causes to much drama and stress

every other part of mythic+ is fine

[ResentfulUK]

As usual, this MMOC thread was answered accurately and in full on the first page (and indeed in the very first reply this time), but the "debate" will rage on for another 5+ pages despite nothing more needing to be said.

And here we are ... 14 pages later.

[starstationprofm]

It's objectively broken. Game has like 36 specs and it only gets 5; it creates extremist metas; e.g. the same spec in all world records of the past few months.

They should reduce 5man instances by 2 and add 2 10man hard mode instances so there's a middle ground between the two extremes of 20man and 5.

You can do M+ on every spec.

[Alydael]

It was a great idea, essentially saving dungeon content which became very stale and trivial and turning it into its own mode, fit for casuals and hardcores alike. In MoP and WoD you either went Challenge Mode or dungeons were a clownfiesta.

The fact its much less of a logistic hurdle then raids is also a huge bonus.

. That said, it developed some shortcomings over time, such as the pressure and toxicity of pugs. I believe some of those can be remedied by, say, making keys not lose a level on a failed timer run

But even considering the disadvantages, i believe its a solid system who's pros outweigh its cons.

It didn't save dungeon content. It cost us a lot of content. They used to add more dungeons with patches. Look at WoTLK. They stopped doing that because they learned that you can trick players into running the same dungeon over and over as long as the bosses have a little more hp and dmg and you slap a timer on it. As long as there is a reward at the end, people will run it over and over.....

See! No need to make more dungeons......

If you look at the stats- some people have run those dungeons hundreds of times. If that is your thing, that's fine but it cost us content because they make less dungeons now because they know they can get the players to re run them with the keys. I run them sometimes, between raids, but I don't like how the devs used it as an excuse to actually give us less content.... If you find something good- you should expand on it and build it out, not use it as an excuse to give less.

[Engal]

It didn't save dungeon content. It cost us a lot of content. They used to add more dungeons with patches. Look at WoTLK. They stopped doing that because they learned that you can trick players into running the same dungeon over and over as long as the bosses have a little more hp and dmg and you slap a timer on it. As long as there is a reward at the end, people will run it over and over.....

See! No need to make more dungeons......

If you look at the stats- some people have run those dungeons hundreds of times. If that is your thing, that's fine but it cost us content because they make less dungeons now because they know they can get the players to re run them with the keys. I run them sometimes, between raids, but I don't like how the devs used it as an excuse to actually give us less content.... If you find something good- you should expand on it and build it out, not use it as an excuse to give less.

That's actually half true
Wod had 8 dungeons
Legion 14
BFA 12
SL 8 ( +1 including tazavesh )

You can see a trend when rushed expansion get less dungeon than polished ones

[crusadernero]

Timer is fun as a one off challenge, like the MOP challenge modes. But they intend m+ to be the primary form of progression for players who can't raid, and it's not fun for every single run you do to be a timed run where a wipe at the wrong time ruins the whole thing.

It was also more fun during legion before the community optimized it. In Legion you could go in and just kinda do your thing and not be super worried about exactly hitting 100%. But by BFA it was already over. I was pugging in the second week of BFA, before m+ was even released, and I had people complaining that I wasn't optimizing the route and skipping skippable trash packs. Literally my second run ever in the dungeon. And it hasn't gotten better - last season's affix with the precise timing for each miniboss just made it worse.

Yeah, I agree with you on that. Thats why i've stopped tanking on my characters. I used to be an avid tank in wow, but cant be bothered with it anymore. I gotta know everything first hand, the best route, what mobs to pull and who not to pull at what time and so on. Different kind of pressure. Now I just play a pleb BM hunter that does so good dps as I can and dont stand in bad shit while following tanks route.

[Coniferous]

Yeah, I agree with you on that. Thats why i've stopped tanking on my characters. I used to be an avid tank in wow, but cant be bothered with it anymore. I gotta know everything first hand, the best route, what mobs to pull and who not to pull at what time and so on. Different kind of pressure. Now I just play a pleb BM hunter that does so good dps as I can and dont stand in bad shit while following tanks route.

My offspec has always been healer, and healing in m+ is just super weird. The damage profile from one group to the next varies hugely, and you're supposed to time your dps and also heal, but it's really hard to predict damage in pugging. Also, +11 groups routinely take more damage than +15 because of interrupts. It's so, so strange.

[epigramx]

You can do M+ on every spec.

Of course you can, but at competitive high levels: the minmaxing becomes very extreme the fewer the characters you can bring are.

Even if you could stack classes in 20man: you will usually not bring ONLY THAT ONE spec because it will be more open to buffs etc.

[Argorwal]

Yeah I would agree. It should be about FUN, and Exploration. Looking into the little nooks and crannies that often get overlooked! The design of WoW's dungeons has progressively gotten smaller and faster and more streamlined over the years, cutting out much of the running around and exploring that was key to a lot of older dungeon models like blackrock mountain, and Uldaman, etc.

Why do people always use vanilla dungeons for this claim?

WoW dungeons have been hallway simulators since walking through the dark portal in TBC.

Except for HoO in Cata, the large scale dungeons have actually only been coming back since mythic+ has existed (Return to Kara, Mechagon, Tazavesh.)