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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    How often have you done Tazavesh so far?
    maybe twice on my main and that's it, its a really annoying dungeon, i personally think its going to be worse once it becomes m+ dungeons in 9.2

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Of course you can, but at competitive high levels: the minmaxing becomes very extreme the fewer the characters you can bring are.

    Even if you could stack classes in 20man: you will usually not bring ONLY THAT ONE spec because it will be more open to buffs etc.
    So what you're saying is that very difficult bosses require optimisation. And that's somehow a bad thing?

    Every competitive game worth playing has a meta.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    So what you're saying is that very difficult bosses require optimisation.
    No. I said 20man is easy to use more classes and specs because it can both invite a couple or more of an OP spec for a boss and still take others for their utilitiy or their buffs etc; 5man is extremely in the opposite direction; it can take 1 OP spec for healing and 1 OP spec for tanking and the dpses similarly (and even if the total combo matters: it doesn't increase the complexity of the available metas much either).

    They could at least reintroduce 10man in hard mode in its own instances; it would diffuse part of the problem; have a more complete game in 20man and a extremist-with-metas game in 5man but have something inbetween too.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    No. I said 20man is easy to use more classes and specs because it can both invite a couple or more of an OP spec for a boss and still take others for their utilitiy or their buffs etc; 5man is extremely in the opposite direction; it can take 1 OP spec for healing and 1 OP spec for tanking and the dpses similarly (and even if the total combo matters: it doesn't increase the complexity of the available metas much either).
    Arena PVP has had troubles with spec representation at the highest level since it was introduced back in BC, but you're not seeing people call for an end to arena because of that.

    The solution is to balance as close as possible, not kill off a beloved game mode.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    I was pugging in the second week of BFA, before m+ was even released, and I had people complaining that I wasn't optimizing the route and skipping skippable trash packs. Literally my second run ever in the dungeon.
    Honestly I find groups in Normal/Heroic/Mythic 0 to be WAAAAY worse in this regard than 98% of groups on the M+ gear progression path (2-15).

    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    And it hasn't gotten better - last season's affix with the precise timing for each miniboss just made it worse.
    And this season- at least in the gear progression path- I have had very few group members ever complain about a route. In general, the biggest issue that has come up is that the group leader wasn't clear about needing invis. pots and the entire group couldn't do the skip together.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    Mythic+ was the only reason I even played through legion, bfa and played the start of shadowlands. Raiding sucks
    Maybe you should have raided with better ppl then. Raiding is the lifeblood of WoW, without raids we wouldnt even have WoW today

  7. #287
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    Some people like I system, I personally hate it, and it is one of the big reasons I end up quitting WoW many times over!

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by |Dexter| View Post
    Some people like I system, I personally hate it, and it is one of the big reasons I end up quitting WoW many times over!
    That doesn't make sense.
    If you don't like it you can ignore it, if you need the gearing boost for raiding you will probably have the players on your side to make it a breeze.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.
    It was the worst addition the game ever had. It literally killed World of Warcraft.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    That doesn't make sense.
    If you don't like it you can ignore it, if you need the gearing boost for raiding you will probably have the players on your side to make it a breeze.
    False. There are two tanks per raid no matter the size, therefore you will never have a proper distribution of players who both need the gear for raids and haven't already done as many runs as they want. Add to that the system highly rewards you for always grouping with exactly the same people. Add to that the fact that it's not the high end raiders who need the gear boost, it's the plebs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    False. There are two tanks per raid no matter the size, therefore you will never have a proper distribution of players who both need the gear for raids and haven't already done as many runs as they want. Add to that the system highly rewards you for always grouping with exactly the same people. Add to that the fact that it's not the high end raiders who need the gear boost, it's the plebs.
    Offspecing is a thing though, 15s for the gear (not even intime) are not that hard aswell.
    I'm more invested in raiding myself but the bar was always very low for the best rewards in M+, it's also pretty similar to raiding just that you need to know/learn a bit more broader but with less depth than a raid Boss.

    I'm glad that it mixed the raid or die endgame up, I can understand if someone doesn't like it but quitting over it? what? why?

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    And this season- at least in the gear progression path- I have had very few group members ever complain about a route. In general, the biggest issue that has come up is that the group leader wasn't clear about needing invis. pots and the entire group couldn't do the skip together.
    Depends on the dungeon. There are some where it is fairly straightforward and others where everyone does it differently.

    Another thing I noticed was that as you went up the chain the routes became more aggressive so you have to adjust for that. A big pull that is commonplace on +17 will almost certainly wipe a +11 group.

    There’s even differences between 15 and 17 - it just gets more and more aggressive.

  12. #292
    The WoW endgame is a buffet of different progression paths. And people have different tastes, some like ice cream, others genuinly love salad. When the game forces you to eat two pieces of candy for every steak you want to have, people sadly get mad at the guys loving candy, wishing it wouldn't exist at all. Instead they should be annoyed with the organizer who made these kind of sadistic rules.
    Last edited by Hyperaffe; 2022-01-23 at 09:35 PM.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    Offspecing is a thing though, 15s for the gear (not even intime) are not that hard aswell.
    I'm more invested in raiding myself but the bar was always very low for the best rewards in M+, it's also pretty similar to raiding just that you need to know/learn a bit more broader but with less depth than a raid Boss.

    I'm glad that it mixed the raid or die endgame up, I can understand if someone doesn't like it but quitting over it? what? why?
    It's not that I want it removed, and I certainly didn't quit over it. I just resent the fact that it has taken over so much of the endgame reward system, and as a result added a ridiculous level of gatekeeping for anyone who doesn't want to do that shit every week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperaffe View Post
    The WoW endgame is a buffet of different progression paths. And people have different tastes, some like ice cream, others genuinly love salad. When the game forces you to eat 2 pieces of fruit for every steak you want to have people sadly get mad at the guys loving fruit, wishing it wouldn't exist at all. Instead they should be annoyed with the organizer who made these kind of sadistic rules.
    Agreed, it's the content funneling that is the problem. And it has been a problem for over a decade now which blizzard should have learned from the pve vs pvp bickering. Let the people get the rewards they want from the content they want, don't keep adding these juvenile "do it My way" reward systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  14. #294
    I wonder if at this point you could just give gear +13 ilvls (one tier) if you're using it for the correct content and be done.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperaffe View Post
    The WoW endgame is a buffet of different progression paths. And people have different tastes, some like ice cream, others genuinly love salad. When the game forces you to eat 2 pieces of fruit for every steak you want to have people sadly get mad at the guys loving fruit, wishing it wouldn't exist at all. Instead they should be annoyed with the organizer who made these kind of sadistic rules.
    When my BiS trinked on fire mage was locked behind high rated pvp early SL I was pissed and can understand that sentiment, playing PvE endgame on a higher level is already very time consuming adding high rated PvP to that was out of the question for me besides PvP obviously differing a ton from PvE.

    But as for raiding and m+? As i said above it's not that different and should imo. not be completely separated in gear progression, with that we'd be right back to wod levels of raidlogging

  16. #296
    M+ is the root of all evil.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    Depends on the dungeon. There are some where it is fairly straightforward and others where everyone does it differently.
    That's sort of my point though- I don't remember the last time I saw someone complain about the route in a 15 or lower. Like in SD- some people do the whole room before Kryxis's balcony. Some pull the alcove in the room after Kyrxis. Some pull more mobs around Tarvold's ring. Some pull (or skip) the nasty pull before the gauntlet. I've seen a bunch of different ways of pulling it, but what I don't see is people complaining about how it's being pulled. Outside of NW and maybe HoA, it's pretty hard to grossly over-pull a dungeon. "The route" is just not an issue I see groups arguing about much at those levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    Another thing I noticed was that as you went up the chain the routes became more aggressive so you have to adjust for that. A big pull that is commonplace on +17 will almost certainly wipe a +11 group.

    There’s even differences between 15 and 17 - it just gets more and more aggressive.
    Sure. But you'll notice I specifically mentioned "in the gear progression path" i.e +15 and under.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  18. #298
    M+ is an absolute cancer on the game. I'm not surprised at all how popular it is, given the level of intellect in the type of player that M+ attracts.

    It does nothing but breed toxicity, and adds an unnecessary level of complication to the game. For example...you can't even run a normal or heroic dungeon anymore without some M+ try-hard dipshit ruining the experience for everyone else. It's also the Gearscore of our times, where players have to worry about a "rating", and a 3rd party site or addon to calculate these ratings.

    The biggest issue is the probably the timed run aspect of it. This gogogogogoogogo, impatient mentality is the hallmark of a Millennial trait that is just ruining society as a whole.
    Last edited by ablib; 2022-01-23 at 10:15 PM.

  19. #299
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    I'm sure there have been other threads adressing this issue but I wanted to pose a question.

    Was Mythic + a game system mistake ?

    My reasoning behind this is simple. As WoW has grown older and the gaming climate has been changed with many outside systems like Discord, etc, taking over player to player communication, the game has become less social over time.

    The mythic plus system basically rewards groups that stay together longer to get as many runs done as possible to maximize rewards, etc.

    However, to stay together longer you have to have a group comprised of members who know their role and are willing to stay and work with others for an extended time period.

    That being said WoW has grown to encourage faster, low-commitment type players who just want to get in and get the run over with and get out as fast as possible. Back in the days of Wrath it wasn't uncommon for a good group of even random players to run several Heroics together. Nowadays that's an anomaly.

    So looking back was the Mythic + system, which only really caters to the minority of players, and is also the focus of many toxic behaviors an ill conceived plan?
    Imagine casuals did not have a weekly chest to try for that actually took time, effort and even some skill, they would literally un-sub in 2 days rather than 1 week as there is nothing to go for. Blizz loses even more than your view on current setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    M+ is an absolute cancer on the game. I'm not surprised at all how popular it is, given the level of intellect in the type of player that M+ attracts.

    It does nothing but breed toxicity, and adds an unnecessary level of complication to the game. For example...you can't even run a normal or heroic dungeon anymore without some M+ try-hard dipshit ruining the experience for everyone else. It's also the Gearscore of our times, where players have to worry about a "rating", and a 3rd party site or addon to calculate these ratings.

    The biggest issue is the probably the timed run aspect of it. This gogogogogoogogo, impatient mentality is the hallmark of a Millennial trait that is just ruining society as a whole.

    The only people who complain hard about .io are those who are very bad or very lazy.

    If you actually had empathy, you would know group leaders require .io to keep their sanity, instead of being forced to recruit randoms and suffer while other plebians just press "sign up" and someone else does the work for them in both group management and the actual dungeon. You see, bad or lazy players don't care about .io and it's use as a recruiting tool because they literally never group lead, nor do they care about .io of others in their immediate group because they are poor themselves and just pray they get carried by anybody. Therefore they hate .io as it is a 'blocker' to being easily invited (and assisted with little given in return), not the useful tool that it actually is.

    If actual skill level or even effort level of the average player wasn't 1 step above nothing, .io would not be necessary. Instead you a minefield and .io is the mine sweeper.

    You mention similarity to the old predecessor Gearscore. You know that came about when every bad player in existence was trying to join pugs for ICC and people got sick of 2k dps andys who wasted everybody's time. Gearscore was crude, but its existence was warranted.
    Last edited by Daffan; 2022-01-23 at 10:53 PM.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    It was the best addition this game ever had. It literally revived World of Warcraft.
    LFD was a more important addition but M+ is easily in the top 3. Anything that takes barriers away from end game content is an important addition. Flex raiding was another good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

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