Sargeras VS Zovaal

[TheFirstOnes]

According to Chronicle Vol. 1, he did. And before employing the "Chronicle is no longer canon" gambit, the series is both canon and a first-person account of the events from the Titans' own perspective - they themselves claim that Sargeras destroyed the 6 remaining members of the Pantheon at Nihilam in a single pitched battle and that he had no other beings aiding him in said battle. Unless your claim is that the Titans are lying about the circumstances of their own deaths at Sargeras' hands, then yes, he did indeed solo them.

No? He ended them with the Felstorm, and that's due to the Titans and their natural affinity against magics of primordial chaos such as Disorder, etc. But the effort in of itself is illustrated on MORE THAN ONE OCCASION to be a team effort. Sargeras beating them is flowery language, in that you clearly SEE the Demons fucking jumping them and overwhelmed them till they gave up. Reminder that the Demons took a HEAVY blow. No one is making any of those arguments, no idea why everyone has to argue a black/white premise here.

- - - Updated - - -

And you had a go at me and told me to pay attention before saying weird shit…..man you’re head cannon is fucking intense

You and others seriously need to elaborate and explain why I'm so wrong here...

- - - Updated - - -

Based on the feats Zovaal isn't even stronger than Arthas Lich King, lmao.

And Arthas is unironically more powerful than the Old Gods, going off the fact he shares better mind-hax resistance than Dominated Anduin, and his SOUL SHARD was used to make him as crazy and Uber powerful as he currently is.

Also...no idea why you all aren't going off the thing that Zovaal is literally claiming Azeroth's prime fucking essence...

- - - Updated - - -

That doesn't really mean anything. Plenty of weaker beings can absorb the power of something more powerful, especially considering Azeroth isn't actually awake/defending herself.

Is a mosquito more powerful than a human because it steals blood while we sleep?

That's all nice and all, but you ignore what he does...with Decimator...

Ya know...where he DISMANTLES Azeroth to 20% health, and if he fires 1 more shot at it, ALL OF THE COSMOS IS FUCKED!

[Varodoc]

Sargeras would probably cut Torghast in half and call it a day.

[Aucald]

No? He ended them with the Felstorm, and that's due to the Titans and their natural affinity against magics of primordial chaos such as Disorder, etc. But the effort in of itself is illustrated on MORE THAN ONE OCCASION to be a team effort. Sargeras beating them is flowery language, in that you clearly SEE the Demons fucking jumping them and overwhelmed them till they gave up. Reminder that the Demons took a HEAVY blow. No one is making any of those arguments, no idea why everyone has to argue a black/white premise here.

A Fel storm that he conjured, for the sole purpose of destroying them, yes. The fact that the Titans were vulnerable to Fel makes no difference and would be no different than using fire magic against a cold-aspected target or vice-versa. The rank and file of demons would be nothing to any given Titan, much less 6 of them - as demonstrated by Sargeras who alone imprisoned almost the entirety of the numbers before later releasing them after losing his mind to fear. Needless to say, the Chronicle is at pains to show that their deaths were brought about directly by Sargeras, with zero mention of being demons "jumping them" or being overwhelmed by any numbers. It's laid out clearly and cleanly in Chronicle Vol. 1.

[TheFirstOnes]

A Fel storm that he conjured, for the sole purpose of destroying them, yes. The fact that the Titans were vulnerable to Fel makes no difference and would be no different than using fire magic against a cold-aspected target or vice-versa. The rank and file of demons would be nothing to any given Titan, much less 6 of them - as demonstrated by Sargeras who alone imprisoned almost the entirety of the numbers before later releasing them after losing his mind to fear. Needless to say, the Chronicle is at pains to show that their deaths were brought about directly by Sargeras, with zero mention of being demons "jumping them" or being overwhelmed by any numbers. It's laid out clearly and cleanly in Chronicle Vol. 1.

TBC Classic has illustrations of them being overwhelmed by such foes, and while those Titans were powerful, the Legion and Sargeras fucked the Lords of Order up. Not to mention Sargeras only did that cause he is literally the Titans greatest warrior, similar to how the Primus legit scribed Domination from Zereth Mortis (supposedly) onto Zovaal’s very flesh and banished Helya without any shits given cause he’s the Eternals greatest warrior and Necrotic badass.

I do think Domination was the 7th power that didn’t make it to the Grand Design. This is head canon though (based off the origin of Domination thing from Zovaal fight and other factors that’ll take too long for me to explain in this post rn and aren’t yet relevant to this topic) not whatever I said before regarding why I don’t think Sargeras is as powerful as you all may think

Would explain why Zovaal is also as uber powerful as he is

[Aucald]

TBC Classic has illustrations of them being overwhelmed by such foes, and while those Titans were powerful, the Legion and Sargeras fucked the Lords of Order up. Not to mention Sargeras only did that cause he is literally the Titans greatest warrior, similar to how the Primus legit scribed Domination from Zereth Mortis (supposedly) onto Zovaal’s very flesh and banished Helya without any shits given cause he’s the Eternals greatest warrior and Necrotic badass.

I do think Domination was the 7th power that didn’t make it to the Grand Design. This is head canon though (based off the origin of Domination thing from Zovaal fight and other factors that’ll take too long for me to explain in this post rn and aren’t yet relevant to this topic) not whatever I said before regarding why I don’t think Sargeras is as powerful as you all may think

The TBC illustration really only showcases the Legion and its composition, it by no means defines the events as explicated in Chronicle Vol. 1, nor does it support your argument that the Titans either contended with the demons en masse or were "overwhelmed" by them. It doesn't even show them fighting, in point of fact. Sargaras was indeed the greatest warrior of the Pantheon and showed himself as several orders of magnitude more powerful than his previous second, Aggramar (who he slew in single combat and with a single blow), as well as the rest of the Pantheon.

As for Domination, I don't really know where it fits in the cosmological chat as shown in the Chronicle, but as a power of Death, I would say it likely belong within the sphere of Death the same way Fel belongs within the sphere of Disorder. I liken Domination to higher-order Necromancy, in a way, in the same fashion that Void magic is higher-order Shadow in a number of ways. I don't think Domination constitutes its own sphere in the same way Death or Life does, but that it is an energy or force that is closer to the truest essence of Death than Necromancy itself.

[Eazy]

And Arthas is unironically more powerful than the Old Gods, going off the fact he shares better mind-hax resistance than Dominated Anduin, and his SOUL SHARD was used to make him as crazy and Uber powerful as he currently is.

Also...no idea why you all aren't going off the thing that Zovaal is literally claiming Azeroth's prime fucking essence...

- - - Updated - - -



That's all nice and all, but you ignore what he does...with Decimator...

Ya know...where he DISMANTLES Azeroth to 20% health, and if he fires 1 more shot at it, ALL OF THE COSMOS IS FUCKED!

Yeah, yeah... Just as Deathwing almost did the Twilight Hour... or N'Zoth almost triumph... or Argus almost unmade everything... or Sargeras almost killed Azeroth.

Zovaal didn't really do anything special.

[Aresk]

Who's stronger?

How do you define strength? If it's physical strength, then I would say Sargeras is likely the victor, though we haven't seen Zovaal do anything yet at his full strength. If strength is measured by some other metric (e.g. cunning), then I'd give it to Zovaal, as beyond his physical strength and ability to inspire awe in power-hungry egotistical villains (Azshara, Kil'jaeden), Sargeras hasn't really shown himself to be capable of much. Zovaal commands Denathrius, who commands the dreadlords, who manipulated Sargeras, after all.

Empowered Devos>Kyrestia
Devos<5 players
Kyrestia, Primus, Winter queen, Denathrius>Zovaal
Zovaal=Titan++

WTF

Devos would have beaten the players without Kyrestia's intervention (at least on Mythic difficulty). That being said, I find looking at player counts in dungeons/raids somewhat suspect, especially with flexible raid size.

[whyabadi]

Who is Zovaal again?

[olddog]

Domination magic crafted by Primus. Zovaal stole it.
Machine of Origination build by the First Ones. And Zovaal stole it.

Lol What the hell can he do on his own?

[Feanoro]

I have no idea how this even hit two pages, Sargeras is the size of a planet it's pretty self-evident who'd win.

I'm personally waiting for certain posters to come tell us that the Janitor would win and anyone who says differently is just parroting a streamer. We have the usual "nO rEalLy, DaNusEr'S lOrE maKeS sEnSe!" posters, so the "you're all streamer sheep" posters can't be too far off.

- - - Updated - - -

Who is Zovaal again?

The Janitor.

[Hobbidaggy]

Domination magic crafted by Primus. Zovaal stole it.
Machine of Origination build by the First Ones. And Zovaal stole it.

Lol What the hell can he do on his own?

Exactly. The dude relies on others to do all his work and hasn’t actually shown any real power except really minor stuff. His army is strong and that’s about it. Unless walking slowly and long monologues is a power….

[Super Dickmann]

As for Domination, I don't really know where it fits in the cosmological chat as shown in the Chronicle, but as a power of Death, I would say it likely belong within the sphere of Death the same way Fel belongs within the sphere of Disorder. I liken Domination to higher-order Necromancy, in a way, in the same fashion that Void magic is higher-order Shadow in a number of ways. I don't think Domination constitutes its own sphere in the same way Death or Life does, but that it is an energy or force that is closer to the truest essence of Death than Necromancy itself.

This is pretty much how it's explained next patch, essentially direct soul magic. Like necromancy misaligns the soul and then takes over, the Primus talks about it as an interference signal preventing the figure from understanding itself and taking it over remotely. So the two factors to resisting it is the will of the target and the understanding of it by the caster. For the former it's why the 9.2 robots are more resistant, as the Bald Man doesn't know as much about them as much as he knows about regular people. For the latter it's why that hideous TBC green they turn the Crown of Domination into works and looks the way it does, since it combines the automa's nature with the memories of those already resisting and that it itself was used for that purpose.

In any case there's an upper limit to size. Medivh can still interact with Arcanagos size-wise. A dude the size of a planet doesn't have to worry about specks. And even in an avatar to avatar fight, as a lot of people have already pointed out in the thread, the Bald Man isn't much of a fighter. He was the Arbiter first, which is not a physical task and afterwards he was explicitly defeated by his siblings and the Primus. In the game itself most of the more impressive shit he does also isn't physical, like insta-MCing the Bland Gang or is based on some kind of trick, like using his Anduin sockpuppet to steal the plot device from the Primus while they're evenly matched. He's not weak by any stretch, since he's still a godhead, but it speaks for itself that in order to do what N'zoth, let alone Sargeras did as regards taking advantage of the world soul he has to jury rig a machine to methodically do it for him, where the former could passively warp the world by existing and the latter did it casually while the entire rest of the Pantheon was drawing him in.

[Aucald]

For the latter it's why that hideous TBC green they turn the Crown of Domination into works and looks the way it does, since it combines the automa's nature with the memories of those already resisting and that it itself was used for that purpose.

I initially thought the Crown of Wills was kind of bland as well, but seeing it on Arbiter Pelagos' head I can see why it was designed the way it was. It looks kind of stupid on its own, but it does match the general look and aesthetic of the new Arbiter's general design.

In any case there's an upper limit to size. Medivh can still interact with Arcanagos size-wise. A dude the size of a planet doesn't have to worry about specks. And even in an avatar to avatar fight, as a lot of people have already pointed out in the thread, the Bald Man isn't much of a fighter. He was the Arbiter first, which is not a physical task and afterwards he was explicitly defeated by his siblings and the Primus. In the game itself most of the more impressive shit he does also isn't physical, like insta-MCing the Bland Gang or is based on some kind of trick, like using his Anduin sockpuppet to steal the plot device from the Primus while they're evenly matched. He's not weak by any stretch, since he's still a godhead, but it speaks for itself that in order to do what N'zoth, let alone Sargeras did as regards taking advantage of the world soul he has to jury rig a machine to methodically do it for him, where the former could passively warp the world by existing and the latter did it casually while the entire rest of the Pantheon was drawing him in.

That's pretty much what I said previously, minus the size thing. I assume that like most boss-type NPC's, Zovaal could theoretically be however large he wants - just like Archimonde could increase his size to contend with a massive Ancient like Malorne, Zovaal could theoretically present himself as a planet-sized avatar or what have you. But even still, Sargeras is a warrior first and pretty much has the general build of your standard "combat monster" type of NPC - whereas Zovaal is more your schemer and plotter. This isn't to say he's not personally powerful, just probably not as offensively and combat-oriented as Sargeras himself.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yeah, yeah... Just as Deathwing almost did the Twilight Hour... or N'Zoth almost triumph... or Argus almost unmade everything... or Sargeras almost killed Azeroth.

Zovaal didn't really do anything special.

Deathwing was being empowered by N'Zoth, and tried to destroy all of Deepholm, the Dream, etc from within. N'Zoth was fully freed and ruled all of Ny'alotha, and bridged dimensions before we fucked him up with the Heart and ended both him and his realm. Azshara even got that Xal'atah thing wrong also, since stabbing him only really pissed him off. Oh, and both Azshara and N'Zoth feared Zovaal's presence, as he is the "Enemy of all".

Argus didn't almost unmake everything. At best he was going to end what we knew of as creation at the time, and Sargeras didn't even truly know what Azeroth was. No one did except for maybe the Primus, and the Fatescribes.

"Zovaal didn't really do anything special." I'd argue Zovaal scribing his power among the other 6, absorbing Azeroth at the core of the Cosmic Design thought by the First Ones, corrupting a constellar to a point where he can make his own Anti-matter UNIVERSE which at the time was but a singularity vision and doing shit akin to the Anti-monitor, and dismantling Azeroth, making a HoA and even INFUSING himself with her own power...is enough to differentiate him from literally everyone else.

[darkoms]

How can you even believe that the Eternal Ones (at least in their current state) are on the same level as the Titans. Archon was beaten by Devos, we defeated Denatrius, Anduin blocked Zovaal's attack in the Maw itself.

[qwerty123456]

The First Ones saw the Future and saw that Zovaal was such a non threat that instead of remaking him decided to give some mortals a teleportation device and let shit play out.

Sargeras def more powerful.

Deathwing was being empowered by N'Zoth, and tried to destroy all of Deepholm, the Dream, etc from within. N'Zoth was fully freed and ruled all of Ny'alotha, and bridged dimensions before we fucked him up with the Heart and ended both him and his realm. Azshara even got that Xal'atah thing wrong also, since stabbing him only really pissed him off. Oh, and both Azshara and N'Zoth feared Zovaal's presence, as he is the "Enemy of all".

Argus didn't almost unmake everything. At best he was going to end what we knew of as creation at the time, and Sargeras didn't even truly know what Azeroth was. No one did except for maybe the Primus, and the Fatescribes.

"Zovaal didn't really do anything special." I'd argue Zovaal scribing his power among the other 6, absorbing Azeroth at the core of the Cosmic Design thought by the First Ones, corrupting a constellar to a point where he can make his own Anti-matter UNIVERSE which at the time was but a singularity vision and doing shit akin to the Anti-monitor, and dismantling Azeroth, making a HoA and even INFUSING himself with her own power...is enough to differentiate him from literally everyone else.

Zovaal has to use First Ones tech, the lifeforce of a titan, and Titan tech just to achieve his goals. Sargeras just needed a single Titan to do the same thing.

[TheFirstOnes]

The First Ones saw the Future and saw that Zovaal was such a non threat that instead of remaking him decided to give some mortals a teleportation device and let shit play out.

Sargeras def more powerful.




Zovaal has to use First Ones tech, the lifeforce of a titan, and Titan tech just to achieve his goals. Sargeras just needed a single Titan to do the same thing.

No. Sargeras needed to remake the whole Order Pantheon to pull that shit off, and that’s simply him wanting Argus to remake it all so that the Big Bang could reoccur without the Void ordeal hopefully. However, as we know, the powers of Order and Disorder, even the ones like Life, Death, etc suck at knowing they literally were made by the First Ones and if Azeroth wakes or dies, existence gets fucked, the forces die or fall into chaos in the process, THAT is why the 6 powers took SHAPE from the geometry and were the first specimens of the Progenitors’ language. It’s also why the meditation of existence exists. It and the powers plus language are contextual, and the First Ones are so fucking op, their THOUGHTS are above even platonic concepts

Argus also benefitted Zovaal more tbh

- - - Updated - - -

The TBC illustration really only showcases the Legion and its composition, it by no means defines the events as explicated in Chronicle Vol. 1, nor does it support your argument that the Titans either contended with the demons en masse or were "overwhelmed" by them. It doesn't even show them fighting, in point of fact. Sargaras was indeed the greatest warrior of the Pantheon and showed himself as several orders of magnitude more powerful than his previous second, Aggramar (who he slew in single combat and with a single blow), as well as the rest of the Pantheon.

As for Domination, I don't really know where it fits in the cosmological chat as shown in the Chronicle, but as a power of Death, I would say it likely belong within the sphere of Death the same way Fel belongs within the sphere of Disorder. I liken Domination to higher-order Necromancy, in a way, in the same fashion that Void magic is higher-order Shadow in a number of ways. I don't think Domination constitutes its own sphere in the same way Death or Life does, but that it is an energy or force that is closer to the truest essence of Death than Necromancy itself.

I mean, would have to then try and explain why the Primus connected it more towards a language than anything and why the only real thing to counter it is another First Ones made thing and a prophecy foretold by the First Ones who supposedly exist above the entire Warcraft cosmology and maybe the Blizzard Omniverse? I don’t wanna wank them that high though

[Aucald]

I mean, would have to then try and explain why the Primus connected it more towards a language than anything and why the only real thing to counter it is another First Ones made thing and a prophecy foretold by the First Ones who supposedly exist above the entire Warcraft cosmology and maybe the Blizzard Omniverse? I don’t wanna wank them that high though

In a sense, all magics are languages or expressions of putting meaning to concepts - the Arcane is the language of Order, Shadow is the language of the Void, and perhaps Domination is the language of Death.

[TheFirstOnes]

In a sense, all magics are languages or expressions of putting meaning to concepts - the Arcane is the language of Order, Shadow is the language of the Void, and perhaps Domination is the language of Death.

Maybe? But I’d argue that wouldn’t explain why the heart of Eternity is all Blue and why I think the first phase is called the origin of Domination. Also doesn’t fit with “the seventh convets what the 6 hold fast” and it talks about how the Fulcrum weavers and all will be “undone”. Ik Attendants say it’s nothing and that the thing lies, but Domination doesn’t really work like Necromancy does, tbh.

But I think I may be overthinking it lol. Also when it says first specimens, I think it simply means the powers such as Order, Light, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Times and time again Light AND Void Magics pop out as a result of genesis spheres and whatnot. It’s clear that the Fundamentals are still encompassed by the Progenitors

- - - Updated - - -

I like the idea that Zovaal is so arrogant that he likely assumes the First zones simply chained Death and all, when that’s not really how it works, as the pattern is required to even define and give form to these powers

[darkoms]

In a sense, all magics are languages or expressions of putting meaning to concepts - the Arcane is the language of Order, Shadow is the language of the Void, and perhaps Domination is the language of Death.

A power can have several magics at once. Domination and necromancy are death magics.