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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharnath View Post
    I don't think so, I mean I don't view the gear in the manner that you're speaking "prestigious BiS" I view the gear as a TOOL and I want better 'tools' to make my time more enjoyable/easier.

    I'd of thought that if I was current content FOMO then I'd be living in Korthia and seeking guilds to join to raid whatever the current progression raid is? That's how I would react I think as a FOMO that and having my pre raid gear be the BiS it could possibly be prior to stepping into a raid to inc my chances that a guild leader sees me and recognises my current progress like way back in TBC when I got recruited into a progression guild.

    The ONLY FOMO that comes to my mind is... N'zoth mount and Mythic Ny'alotha leather gear which I have acquired some of through due diligence and patience leading randoms.
    But that tool you speak of is not needed at all to do older content. I mean, everybody wants gear to pubstomp older content, it's pretty much the entire reason for getting it (getting better gear helps beat current content easier and further trivializes older content).

    Again, none of it's necessary so why do you need it? And if you want it, why not wait until the content you want to clear is trivialized? Otherwise, you'll always want BiS gear with every patch/expansion to do old content which brings me back to why I believe it's FOMO. I like soloing old raids. You know what would make that easier? Waiting until the next expansion comes out that trivializes the content via levels and uncommon/rare gear.

    My question is, knowing this is a solution that already exists, why do you need the current BiS (now or in the future) to clear older content if current content does not tickle your fancy in the same manner?
    Last edited by Ekis; 2022-01-24 at 02:34 AM.

  2. #242
    I was happiest with WoW in WOTLK. And I think FFXIV handles catering to both casuals and hardcores in an ideal way.

    Players who do higher difficulty content get their gear faster than those that don't, but those that don't will still get equally or near equally geared before the next tier comes out. The hardcores get unique skins and titles but the gap in player power between them and the casuals is minimal. I see no reason why WoW can't do the same.

    Two currencies, justice points and valor points. We've had them before and they worked well.

    Justice is uncapped and is earnable through a variety of casual content such as dungeons, daily quests, world quests, etc. It's used for decent max level gear (say equivalent to max level dungeon blues), non-binding crafting mats that are unacquireable elsewhere and used for higher end crafting, and perhaps some transmog items, pets and mounts. This would allow players to use justice for collectibles, crafting, or making gold (by selling those justice point only crafting mats).

    Valor has a weekly cap. You can only earn so much valor each week. Valor can be earned through a variety of content such as your first heroic dungeon of the day gives X amount of valor and if the only valor granting activity you do during the week is a heroic each day, you'd hit your weekly cap in 5 days. Clearing every boss in the current tier's raid would also cap you for valor for the week (regardless of difficulty). You could also cap valor for the week by running 5 mythic dungeons (regardless of key level), or through doing X amount of Arenas/Battlegrounds. Weekly world quests (like the ones to kill world bosses) would be another method to acquire some valor. There could also be other methods of one-shot valor available each week such as turning in gathered materials or crafted items for example.

    Valor would allow the purchase of high end gear for EVERY slot (including weapons). This gear would be the same ilvl as heroic raid gear. It would have it's own appearances and probably not be as elaborate looking as the raid gear. Valor gear would have the same set bonuses as the raid gear for the current tier and could even be mixed with raid tier to complete the set. The ilvl gap between raid difficulties would be reduced to 10 and mythic raid gear would have unique appearances and not just be a recolor. Valor would also have it's own selection of valor only non-binding crafting mats, pets, mounts, transmogs. When a new raid tier comes out, new valor items will replace the old, and the old valor items get bumped down to justice becoming catchup gear for those who play little or those joining late.

    The weekly valor cap and valor prices for items would ensure that the pace of acquisition is slow enough that raiders will undoubtedly be geared out from raid drops long before they could be fully geared out via valor, with valor pieces filling in when rng is unkind. Those relying entirely on valor gear for progression would not be fully geared out until well within the current raid tier's life span, but would still have a several weeks to enjoy the fruits of their labors before the next tier came out.

    It's an elegant system that could work imo, and mythic raiders still get to be special snowflakes with the highest ilvl gear (though not as great a power gap as they once had) and have unique visuals and titles for distinction and bragging. Ultimately the casuals would eventually catch up to the heroic raiders over time and only be 10 ilvls behind the mythic raiders.

    The valor earned by raiders of all difficulties could be used to purchase gear over time and acts as "bad luck protection" or they could use it to buy the crafting mats, pets, mounts, transmogs. No one has to do content they don't enjoy to cap their valor since there are multiple ways to cap it for the week. Raiders can cap it from clearing the current raid, PvP'rs can cap it doing a modest amount of pvp, casual dungeon heroes can cap it doing a heroic each day, LFR champions could cap it doing the full LFR for the week, and anyone could do a mix of these to cap it if they want to but aren't obligated to do ALL of it just to keep up with the Joneses.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2022-01-24 at 02:50 AM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    But that tool you speak of is not needed at all to do older content. I mean, everybody wants gear to pubstomp older content it's pretty much the entire reason for getting it (getting better gear helps beat current content easier and further trivializes older content).

    Again, none of it's necessary so why do you need it? And if you want it, why not wait until the content you want to clear is trivialized? Otherwise, you'll always want BiS gear with every patch/expansion to do old content which brings me back to why I believe it's FOMO. I like soloing old raids. You know what would make that easier? Waiting until the next expansion comes out that trivializes the content via levels and uncommon/rare gear.

    My question is, knowing this is a solution that already exists, why do you need the current BiS (now or in the future) to clear older content if current content does not tickle your fancy in the same manner?
    Because I believe (not know or can prove) that if I had BiS current content and I STILL can't solo something in older content then to me it's (currently) impossible because all utilities have been utilised.

    However...

    If I can't solo something but "get close everytime" then my gut tells me not having current BiS gear is what's holding me back because I can't utilise all my utilities because I don't have them.

    This is all coming from a 10yr ago no life presence in the game (my previous progression expansion before current was CATA) where I was (always) in BiS raiding gear and back then I would solo older content in said BiS and if I couldn't do something then I deemed it impossible because I was at the best I could be but now I'm less than half that so my 1st thought is to get the BiS of current to make the older content as trivial (and doable) as possible.

    Does that make sense?

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharnath View Post
    But... Isn't that a universally good thing? Cause then the game is skill based not gear based? I'm confused

    Edit: Rewards being: mounts, pets, items for pets, transmogrifications, titles, tabards, shirts and other cosmetic items?
    I don’t think WoW being solely skill based over gear is a good route to take (PvE). Getting stronger gear to overcome challenges is basically the fundamental cornerstone of the game, and removing that for some reason to me would be pretty stupid, and completely change it into a different game.

    Also, the skill gap is so absolutely massive in this game that the soft nerf of gear progression is part of what helps teams get through content. Pure skill checks typically end badly for the majority of players (see mage tower, painsmith, etc.)

    Skill checks also make the content extremely binary in difficulty, and guilds would brick wall even faster, and they wouldn’t even have any hope of coming back the next week with more gear. It’s just a wall. And that leads to people quiting.
    Last edited by Argorwal; 2022-01-24 at 03:10 AM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    I don’t think WoW being solely skill based over gear is a good route to take (PvE). Getting stronger gear to overcome challenges is basically the fundamental cornerstone of the game, and removing that for some reason to me would be pretty stupid, and completely change it into a different game.

    Also, the skill gap is so absolutely massive in this game that the soft nerf of gear progression is part of what helps teams get through content. Pure skill checks typically end badly for the majority of players (see mage tower, painsmith, etc.)

    Skill checks also make the content extremely binary in difficulty, and guilds would brick wall even faster, and they wouldn’t even have any hope of coming back the next week with more gear. It’s just a wall. And that leads to people quiting.
    Not if they implement that Wotlk raiding buff thingy? Didn't the progression get 1% easier or something each week in WotlK raiding? That would certainly help ensure player progression?

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharnath View Post
    Not if they implement that Wotlk raiding buff thingy? Didn't the progression get 1% easier or something each week in WotlK raiding? That would certainly help ensure player progression?
    I mean yeah technically, but I felt the ICC and DS bi-weekly 5% buffs was an incredibly boring, lazy, and artificial way to nerf content.

    Improving the gear of your character is a cornerstone of an RPG, not some arbitrary buff that flat nerfs everything on a time gate.

    Imagine playing D&D and instead of finding a cool +2 long sword the DM just says randomly enough time has passed that all monsters lost 2 AC.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    I assume that there isn't a 100% perfect answer but in your mind what would come close to the best possible compromise between these two groups?

    In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

    What are your thoughts on it?
    Have a star rating system in m+ for

    utility usage
    output
    damage mitigation

    This here would seperate the player base into there correct sections so similar level players could play with similar level players. you could see someone undergeared but he has 5* 5* 5* with low rio so instantly you know he knows his stuff and has been on a break. you could also see the new players.

    This would not only seperate players but it would give wow what it has been lacking for a very long time, the need for players to improve to climb the ladder. rather than blizzard spoonfeeding / dumbing down everything. if they cant improve then why should they be in +24s??????????? wasting the players who are good enoughs time.

    This imo would save wow, casuals (all thats left) will say nonononono but longevity of the game this would massively improve everything about m+ and bring all the genuinely good players back at any time and see them getting invited as soon as they proved how good they are by getting some star ratings in, instead of being stuck behind everyone who got lucky on the earlier weeks of the season.

    Thats all the top players are currently, players who got lucky with parties in the earlier weeks and ride the ship to the top by playing consistently and being invited to all the best parties due to rio+meta combo, if the world #1 player of history had a 6month break and came back to wow currently he would be getting declined for 15s by players who have been playing less time than he had a break. doesnt work.
    Last edited by odamienskii; 2022-01-24 at 03:29 AM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Self Inflicted Wounds View Post
    Except, thats exactly what the person I was reply to wrote? Take all gear from mythic raids and anything past +15.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What benefit does removing gear from mythics have? I don't even raid mythics.
    Well for one it would reduce ilvl inflation, for 2 you could probably fine tune the challenge even more, and lastly their seems to be alot of people complaining that they just want to do nothing but mythic however because all other content has rewards they simply can't pass up they are forced to do it. I propose eliminating that by eliminating the need for gear in mythic raiding. Or any character power.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    I don't understand why this has to be an either/or question?

    How about just creating enough new content to keep all those types of players engaged and interested?
    The problem is, if blizzard create content for the hardcore player then the casual dont like it because they tend to not be able to play or feel adequate, you see things like "i have a job" "sorry for having a life" etc. so what blizzard do is they squish the difficulty and make the game easier so the casual can feel adequate. the game used to thrive when there was some difficulty and some sense of reward.

    Its no surprise the more they simplify for the casuals the more the experienced players walk out the door.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    The trouble with that is that the game literally assign you a number. People then set a number that is acceptable and if you are above it then you are in. If you are below it then they won't even give you a second look.
    I'm talking about the ego investment that progression andy's having in lording gear over casuals, rather than the other way around.

  11. #251
    isn't that why we have lfr/normal and heroic?

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    The problem is, if blizzard create content for the hardcore player then the casual dont like it because they tend to not be able to play or feel adequate, you see things like "i have a job" "sorry for having a life" etc. so what blizzard do is they squish the difficulty and make the game easier so the casual can feel adequate. the game used to thrive when there was some difficulty and some sense of reward.

    Its no surprise the more they simplify for the casuals the more the experienced players walk out the door.
    because you want to cater the same type of content for casuals and non casuals. Dont do it.

    Give them other engaging and fun content besides the big 3. Community based POIs. Reward meaningful items, such as cosmetics for these activities and make them plentiful and unique, not lazy recolors of raids and dungeons, etc. Make it your priority to design gameplay and cosmetics evergreen so that you don't have to rethink the wheel each expansion but instead have the option to build upon existing material instead.

    I was freaking tired of the game only existsing within the treadmill of grind to keep character relevant so that I can then jump into M+ and Mythic.

    The raids are already good as is with LFR/Normal for casuals.
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  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Sucralose View Post
    I assume that there isn't a 100% perfect answer but in your mind what would come close to the best possible compromise between these two groups?

    In my mind the best option would be to cap power obtained outside of progression systems to roughly normal/heroic while removing all/most long term progression systems from the game. As for long term progression I could see a mythic/elite recolor being available though a long term grind would be better reward.

    What are your thoughts on it?
    Progression Players have already the VERTICAL CONTENT



    We lack of HORIZONTAL CONTENT so pretty simple to fix if you are not a demented baboon like the current devs

  14. #254
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    This is easy.
    BK progression style!

    Features:
    - don't create separate branches of content for casuals and hardcore
    - when new tier content arrives - leave the previous tier attractive.
    (When sunwell was a thing - people still actually raided t6, t5, t4. And since i never had a guild those days i never visited anything above t5, but had actually good time in Kara, t4, ZA and sometimes was lucky to join a t5 PUG)
    That is no way to just skip it by cheap new tier gear.
    I don't necessarily mean attunes and gating, but avoid new tier blues higher that prev tier epics.

    This way hardcore crowd does what the usually do - rush on the edge of new content, and
    the casual crowd does the same in their own pace.
    When they see legendary heroes in shiny epics in orgrimar they're like 'oh one day i'll be like him'.
    Not like - 'he's beaten the same bosses i killed on LFR, it's just a bit diferent ilvl on his gear'
    And definitely not like 'he did 20 M+ keys, i can never do that so screw M+'

    While premade guild groups just stomp 5ppls or just skip them, casuals should slowly build their gear in them to progress to Raid tier 1 when ready.
    The same to all Raid tiers.

    And crafted gear and BOE epics - don't let it help skip content.
    Either gate it by progression requirements (defeat at least 1 boss of the tier this item is designed for) or make it limited ( unique equipped (1) like it's been for some time).
    This allows only using it for what it's meant to - to compensate for bad luck with a specific item)

  15. #255
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    I still think that the answer is so simple:

    Take a look at BC and Wrath. Those easily had the best game systems. They were simple and straight forward MMO style. We did play the expansion and not just a patch. No instant rewards, things should take effort and time.

    Let us have professions again and let them be cool and useful. They should have an effect on the game economy, not the tokens..

    Stop the store nonsense. Okay, yes, the store is staying, I do understand that, but then let us have cool farmable, rare drop chance mounts again. No, achievements mounts do not count, I am talking about rare stuff here that a few lucky can have. If everyone can get it, it is not rare or special.

    That leads me to legendaries. When was the last time we had a legendary in the game? Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest? (unless I genuinely missed another, sorry then)
    (To clarify, that was the last real legendary, ever since after that one, we got some orange epics instead, which everyone got granted and by brute force, hence rendering in them as non legendaries...)

    It is all about these sort of things.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    That leads me to legendaries. When was the last time we had a legendary in the game? Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa's Rest? (unless I genuinely missed another, sorry then)
    (To clarify, that was the last real legendary, ever since after that one, we got some orange epics instead, which everyone got granted and by brute force, hence rendering in them as non legendaries...)
    Arguably Aman'thuls Vision and the Sylvanas bow were Legendaries similiar to previous ones in terms of acquisition - largely random, at least MC & TBC legendaries were pretty much random in their acquisition.

    Crux is however, due to multiple layers of difficulty, it just gets very diluted, take the Sylvanas Bow, there isn't "one" version of the bow, rather multiple versions for each difficulty.
    It's the opposite with Aman'thuls vision, where a person that kills the boss on Normal can somehow acquire a way more powerful item than any Mythic item.

    Due to the multiple layers of difficulty, i think legendaries as they were then frankly no longer / don't have the same "emotional" impact anymore, as said, it's kinda diluted.
    Not even mentioning that Blizzard is pretty adamant about this whole "play the patch" thing, not even sure if Hunters will still use the Legendary bow going into 9.2.

    Disregarding that due to personal loot, it's no longer a group decision on who gets the legendary, but rather on who gets lucky, which in my opinion also removes a lot of the emotional connection one might has towards a given item.
    You no longer associate that item with any interaction of other humans (including drama), but just "yeah, i got lucky".

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Self Inflicted Wounds View Post
    I mean, not really. But great reply to a long post I made.

    I'll be sure to discount anything you have to say here I guess, since you aren't looking for any actual discussion and just want BiS legendary and epic gear for doing dailies and fishing.
    Ah, the old "I don't have a counterpoint so I will declare victory and run away" strategy. Very intellectual, very honest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Welcome back!
    Even children from a quite young age enjoy winning. And you can't have "winning" in a game without "loosing".
    But this thread is about casuals where quite a lot of people are shaming casuals as people who are unwilling or unable to participate in content that has even the slightest amount of challenge.
    Right here you exposed the exact degenerate attitude at the heart of the issue: You don't define winning as you winning. You define winning as knowing that someone you don't play with, you never met, whose gameplay has no impact on you, having a bad time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    That "reality" part is rich coming from someone who can't stand how things are currently. Chill with the insults my guy.

    Clearly what I've indicated is that more avenues of progression has already made WoW shallow in many aspects as is (professions are gutted, already have magnitudes of ocean-wide-puddle-deep content *cough*Torghast*ahem*, etc.) so what other avenues of progression are you looking for now? You want Mythic+ 15 gear for fishing? Do you understand how monumental a task that'd be to develop content in such a manner without taking resources from other avenues?

    The game would die faster than it is now if we completely made every single thing we do in the game into an avenue of progression. Why have progression at all at that point; WoW could just be a glorified chat room with avatars. There has to be some difficulty and exclusion.
    Once again, you aren't making sense. You say that too many progression paths have made the game shallow and then turn around and point out about how they took away the progression path in professions. This is incoherent.

    WHat's always amazing to me is how many people clearly haven't ever bothered to even look at another video game since 2004 so they assume that if wow hasn't solved a problem then solution can't possibly exist.

    Want to see how easy of a problem this is to solve? Make most content drop a weekly capped currency that lets you upgrade gear. Problem solved. This isn't a novel idea. Other games do this, and some even have other solutions. WoW is the game that refuses to solve this problem. WoW is the freak. You've all convinced yourself that WoW simply MUST be smarter and better than everything else out there, when it can't solve problems other games solved 10 years ago.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    This is a massively multiplayer online game, not a single-player one. You want an RPG that has no impact on what others do in it, go pick up God of War?

    I don't even know what you're asking for but assuming it's based on the discussion we're having here, you find fun in instant gratification. I don't, but I also don't pick up an MMORPG and think that player progression should be completely invalidated because I want to participate in it how I want yet come out on top at the same time as the "non-regulars" or "degenerates", as you proclaim.
    1. I ask for long term progression paths for more players.
    2. You accuse me of wanting instant gratification.

    The inability to even try to understand the point here is amazing.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Simple: Currency system that can buy BiS. Currency caps, if you raid you get the max currency instantly. If you do solo you have to grind. That way no one feels forced to do any system, and everyone gets what they want.
    No you should never touch bis gear while doing casual content its total nonsense and goes againts very fundamenlts core aspects of RPG game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kharnath View Post
    Not if they implement that Wotlk raiding buff thingy? Didn't the progression get 1% easier or something each week in WotlK raiding? That would certainly help ensure player progression?
    TI cheapens achievemnt from killing boss for everybody.

  19. #259
    Here's my take on it... IF you don't do raiding, why do you deserve raid level gear? If all you do is leveling and world content why does your ilvl have to be higher than the difficulty of the content you choose to do. IF anything, those that don't raid should get more of the cosmetic gear, pets, mounts. Have stuff locked behind reps more that as you unlock them and get into higher tiers with a faction you can get cosmetic gear that matches what they wear. Mounts that are what that faction/rep rides, pets, etc. Unless the world content becomes harder there is really no reason for your ilvl to jump up to the higher raid level gear as their content is harder. Before you call me a elitist, which I know is always the fall back for whiners, look me up. I don't mythic raid, I got AoTC for the first raid this expansion but real life issues made it so I couldn't raid SoD so I benched myself. That being said, there's no reason why I should have the gear or ilvl of those that did the Heroic SoD or do higher level keys get. My "main" is sitting at 235 without setting a foot in SoD or a mythic plus higher than a 4. Its all Korthia gear (6/6), a 239 weapon from doing the weekly cache that had a reward of 239 (believe it was the 4 mythics one) and 262 legendary and the gloves locked behind the rep to go with some gear from the newest WB. There's a little saying that I was taught as a kid that either most weren't or the newer generation doesn't care for.... EFFORT = REWARD!! It doesn't matter that "I bought the game too", if you put minimal effort into what you do (aka don't raid higher than LFR or do mythic pluses of higher difficulty) there is no reason why your reward should be as high as those that do put in the effort.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Alternatively, you could also get better at the game and get everything you want.
    That's assuming everyone has the time to do it. Please remember it is just virtual pixels. And someone else getting the same gear as you by doing "less work" in no way affects your gameplay experience. Perhaps if you actually understood that the WoW forums and fansites would be filled with less elitists playing a 15 year old game.

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