Horrible ambassadors...

[Relapses]

This just completely reeks of someone at Blizzard making an account on here.

...that's extremely unlikely but even if it was... who cares? Are Blizzard employees somehow exempt from sharing their opinions about the community?

[Baalboski]

I've been lurking around some Youtubers and Twitch streamers just checking the game out again, as I might return, and something I realized was how selfish, self righteous, and anti-wow these influencers can be. Also extremely negative, and no doubt that has to do with baiting clicks, but I think it's had a very big impact on the health of the game. Am I saying there's nothing wrong with the game? No, but one big difference I see is in these popular personalities acting as if the game is developed for them personally, and are very jaded, elitist, and it's just a very bad look for the game overall. Instead of fostering players, they really just turn people off of the game. Yea, I know, "who watches this, and just don't watch them it doesn't matter, right?" I think it's been huge for a decade now, and I'm seeing the result in the community, when these fools act like privileged children in the game, others follow suit and act like it's ok. Wow is at it's best when there's a healthy community integration, and that doesn't mean a perfect wow world, it just means the people actually want to play to have fun with each other, and not ram it into the ground because it's not what they want. It's actually gross. There was so many good ambassadors of the game early in wow's life. These days, it's petulant children looking to make a buck, and not giving a damn about the game.

So, i'll go ahead and tackle this. In general, Most of the old guard are salty. They are salty because their eyes are open and they have been nickel and dimed for many years and given sub par content or content they don't want. Blizzard has done a poor job listening to the community and giving us WoW. Instead they turned the game into some casual monstrosity that isn't fun or rewarding. In terms of PvP - its a complete sales mafia and it isn't policed or enforced. For the money players are paying they are gettin peanuts in return. This isn't and hasn't been an innovative game for a very long time. That needs to change or people are gonna continue unsubbing and playing other games. Simple as that.
@Mojo Furthermore, Noone wanted or asked for torghast. Noone likes torghast. Noone likes the little mini heroes mini game added to the hub. In general, ppl don't want these things and don't want thier sub money spent on these things. What we want is good warcraft. Focus on the content we want and make it good.

[arkanon]

Well, again. Why can't it be somewhere in the middle. Why can't the discussion be along the lines of "I thought this part of the game was good and really enjoyed it; this other thing didn't appeal to me and I thought it was boring." There's practically none of that.

There is a HUGE amount of that. But you wont find it at the top of any charts, just like any entertainment. I watch a lot of content from various creators with next to no subs who say "this is TERRIBLE" but 5 mins later will say "oh wow, that was awesome!". Based on the numbers, it seems most people prefer an extreme echo chamber one way or the other.

So to answer your question "why cant it be somewhere in the middle" - simple - the people in question do not like the game, it is a job for them, and nothing more.

[Baalboski]

Retail raid content isn't great. Its just good. And its surrounded by a cookie cutter dump of a game masquarading as an MMO but i wouldn't call retail wow an MMO today. Its not an MMO by anyones standards. PvP is in complete disrepair. Some good changes were made this expansion but some mind boggling changes were made also. A new pvp director is needed. New and enhanced modes are desperately needed. Its about 5-8 years too late..

[Relapses]

There is a HUGE amount of that. But you wont find it at the top of any charts, just like any entertainment. I watch a lot of content from various creators with next to no subs who say "this is TERRIBLE" but 5 mins later will say "oh wow, that was awesome!". Based on the numbers, it seems most people prefer an extreme echo chamber one way or the other.

So to answer your question "why cant it be somewhere in the middle" - simple - the people in question do not like the game, it is a job for them, and nothing more.

Gonna disagree with your last bit there. The real reason these videos are promoted has less to do with echo chambers in either direction; it's is that negativity on YouTube generates engagement which its algorithm fucking loves. This creates an incredibly biased feedback loop where people only watch negative content because that's all that gets recommended to them; the content creators making the negative content -- by virtue of being driven by their engagement metrics -- continue making negative videos because they make boatloads of ad revenue. Obviously it's still ultimately up to the person watching the videos to create their own impartial opinions but until the algorithm changes, negativity will be reigning champ on the platform.

[Polix]

I've been lurking around some Youtubers and Twitch streamers just checking the game out again, as I might return, and something I realized was how selfish, self righteous, and anti-wow these influencers can be. Also extremely negative, and no doubt that has to do with baiting clicks, but I think it's had a very big impact on the health of the game. Am I saying there's nothing wrong with the game? No, but one big difference I see is in these popular personalities acting as if the game is developed for them personally, and are very jaded, elitist, and it's just a very bad look for the game overall. Instead of fostering players, they really just turn people off of the game. Yea, I know, "who watches this, and just don't watch them it doesn't matter, right?" I think it's been huge for a decade now, and I'm seeing the result in the community, when these fools act like privileged children in the game, others follow suit and act like it's ok. Wow is at it's best when there's a healthy community integration, and that doesn't mean a perfect wow world, it just means the people actually want to play to have fun with each other, and not ram it into the ground because it's not what they want. It's actually gross. There was so many good ambassadors of the game early in wow's life. These days, it's petulant children looking to make a buck, and not giving a damn about the game.

I think it's wildly unfair for you think that just because honest, MUCH NEEDED, criticism is taking place in WoW discourse, that you can shit on all of this.

The people in game's media who are critical of the game are generally: 1) still subbed, 2) still playing, and 3) just want this steaming piece of shit to get better. This post sucks.

[Zergin8r]

What are you expecting? You know this has been one of the worst years for Blizzard's PR ever, right? Even its most diehard shills are put off by the state of things.

And just to be clear, you're talking about Asmongold and Bellular, right? The majority of content creators that cover the game are still fairly positive about it, and you can find them just by searching on YouTube.

- - - Updated - - -


Blizzard is definitely 100% responsible for their community - especially their toxic in-game ones.

Yep... they could stop promoting them and their behavior easily enough.

[WowIsDead64]

I've been lurking around some Youtubers and Twitch streamers just checking the game out again, as I might return, and something I realized was how selfish, self righteous, and anti-wow these influencers can be. Also extremely negative, and no doubt that has to do with baiting clicks, but I think it's had a very big impact on the health of the game. Am I saying there's nothing wrong with the game? No, but one big difference I see is in these popular personalities acting as if the game is developed for them personally, and are very jaded, elitist, and it's just a very bad look for the game overall. Instead of fostering players, they really just turn people off of the game. Yea, I know, "who watches this, and just don't watch them it doesn't matter, right?" I think it's been huge for a decade now, and I'm seeing the result in the community, when these fools act like privileged children in the game, others follow suit and act like it's ok. Wow is at it's best when there's a healthy community integration, and that doesn't mean a perfect wow world, it just means the people actually want to play to have fun with each other, and not ram it into the ground because it's not what they want. It's actually gross. There was so many good ambassadors of the game early in wow's life. These days, it's petulant children looking to make a buck, and not giving a damn about the game.

Do you try to say, that we should lie to new players about state of current game and do some PR crap instead? Yeah, I agree, that streamers can't represent players' opinion. I agree, that it's wrong to assume, that if they have 100k subs, then they represent these 100k players. I agree, that they're selfish and want game to be developed personally for them. But at the same time they're right about current bad state of game and silencing them means, you know, censorship.

[XDurionX]

These people make a living from creating drama, what do you expect?

[arkanon]

Gonna disagree with your last bit there. The real reason these videos are promoted has less to do with echo chambers in either direction; it's is that negativity on YouTube generates engagement which its algorithm fucking loves. This creates an incredibly biased feedback loop where people only watch negative content because that's all that gets recommended to them; the content creators making the negative content -- by virtue of being driven by their engagement metrics -- continue making negative videos because they make boatloads of ad revenue. Obviously it's still ultimately up to the person watching the videos to create their own impartial opinions but until the algorithm changes, negativity will be reigning champ on the platform.

Is that how Preach rose to "fame"? By being overly negative about wow? The same preach who for YEARS was criticized for only saying positive things about wow? I get recommended bugger all "negative" things about wow on youtube - because i tend not to watch people play games they hate. I do think some people find themselves deep down the rabbit hole though - where they start with a few 'negative' videos, and as you said (somewhat correctly) they then get recommended videos that people who watched THAT video also watched, which will often be.................negative videos!

So they start to get this impression that "everyone" who creates youtube videos on wow hate it, which simply isnt true. The top streamers and youtubers who once championed wow have, for the most part, been producing some pretty negative content, but there seems to be some people who think they ONLY create that content for clicks - im not at all sold on that, i think its far more likely that they are simply part of the group of people who are very unhappy with the games direction, and with the direction the company as a whole has taken over the last few years.

[Alkizon]

There was a thread not long ago about something similar (there're some links going with it).

[WowIsDead64]

And, simple thing, if they're popular, while they say negative things about Wow, then may be many players share their opinion?

[Relapses]

Is that how Preach rose to "fame"? By being overly negative about wow? The same preach who for YEARS was criticized for only saying positive things about wow? I get recommended bugger all "negative" things about wow on youtube - because i tend not to watch people play games they hate. I do think some people find themselves deep down the rabbit hole though - where they start with a few 'negative' videos, and as you said (somewhat correctly) they then get recommended videos that people who watched THAT video also watched, which will often be.................negative videos! So they start to get this impression that "everyone" who creates youtube videos on wow hate it, which simply isnt true. The top streamers and youtubers who once championed wow have, for the most part, been producing some pretty negative content, but there seems to be some people who think they ONLY create that content for clicks - im not at all sold on that, i think its far more likely that they are simply part of the group of people who are very unhappy with the games direction, and with the direction the company as a whole has taken over the last few years.

Half of Preach's recent YT content includes the phrase "I don't even make content about WoW anymore" followed by him watching a WoW content creator and providing his take. His retirement from WoW content does not strike me as genuine and I'm positive he'll be back to creating WoW content by the time 10.0 rolls around. Further, the empire he built was built in a time that was much different on YT. I mean, hell, if you go back to BfA -- an arguably worse expansion than SL by all measures -- Bellular was routinely making videos defending Blizzard. The negativity bias of YouTube's algorithm is a relatively recent phenomena. I don't blame content creators for following clicks but something strikes me as weirdly opportunistic about the sudden complete shift in tone of a lot of these YouTubers. It's one thing to make a video stating that the state of the game is pretty bad; it's another entirely to release video after video of content which does little to further the discussion about how to improve the game and only serves to further entrench negativity in the community.

[WowIsDead64]

Look, players, who feel, that Wow is no longer great, don't like to accept, that this problem is their personal problem. Players just don't like to be "haters". They hope, that "hating" game enough would bring some positive changes. So they search for support from some other players. That's why all that "This xpack is the best xpack ever made" paid PR lies crap makes them mad, but at the same time they like streams with criticisms so much. And streamers just do, what players like. Even if their opinion itself is wrong. Like some selfish special snowflake "remove LFR" BS. That's it. If such streams are so popular, then we just need to accept, that majority of playerbase wants changes. As simple, as that.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Totally agree with this post. I believe blizzard should listen to feedback from variety of people not just streamers and toxic high end players then game could be in a much beter shape now. I actually stopped watching their youtube channes becase the titles and thumbnails are just click baits and the content is poor.

[Gratlim]

How so? I don't believe it's Blizzards fault for the community, even though I think they haven't made the best expansions. How are they supposed to control it's players? That's my point is there used to be more positive people who just had fun in the game. These days it's gross, it's the only way to describe it, just disgusting cancerous separation.

The best example i can think of in modern wow is M+. They did implement a new form of content giving access to good gear and put mechanical stuff that would turn players against each others.

Why put a timer on it?
Why can you loose your key?

Those are systems in place made by Blizzard that can and will backfire as players will s**t on each other for failed runs. They could have removed or change the timer / key systems to lesser the frustration and toxic potential, but they did not.

[Devilyaki]

Game isn’t really for new players any more, just the old dogs barking at one another now a days.

[Paperfox]

There are a number of posts in this thread that I totally agree with.

One core issue is that we want the game to be fun and/or enjoyable whereas Blizz designs it to make money.

It's like someone designs a poorly laid out parking lot, then blames the drivers.

[buck008]

The community for this game really really sucks and has for a long time now. It's still not League of Legends toxic, but it is Star Wars toxic. There's a reason I very rarely post here nowadays. I mostly check the headlines and move on.

[Kithelle]

Hating WoW is profitable...but they typically end up coming back, if for no other reason just to hate on the new update or expansion.