1. #21021
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I fail to see how in a game in borderline freefall how "worse for players" is "better for the game."

    WoW's top priority needs to be pulling out of their tailspin and finding a stable playerbase, and that's going to mean giving into player demands. "We want less content more often" is not one of those demands.
    Monetization. That's it. The sub model is just not modern anymore and cannot be monetized as in the early days. I'd say FFXIV is the only MMORPG with a sub model that's growing and not declining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Again I ask, why would they adopt the business model of a C-tier MMO, when FFXIV is facing far more success with the current subscription model?

    Despite what you think, WoW is still way closer to FFXIV than ESO in terms of player retention.
    C-tier MMORPG? You know that ESO is next to WoW one of the Top 4/5 MMORPGs on the market? Pretty sure ESO is generating more cash than WoW solely because of the business model and their atrocious loot boxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Expansion tourists are absolutely a real thing though. Loads of players join for maybe a couple of weeks at most, then either leave until the next big patch, or more likely until the end of the expansion if that at all.
    And that's what's good when you have seasons. Instead of making players pay once for an expansion and then occasionally for a subscription you make them pay for every bit of content PLUS the huge price for an expansion.
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  2. #21022
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Expansion tourists are absolutely a real thing though. Loads of players join for maybe a couple of weeks at most, then either leave until the next big patch, or more likely until the end of the expansion if that at all.
    Have you actually met any representatives of this legendary demographic, though? I haven't. It's an incredibly rosy interpretation of the data they're being presented.

    On the other hand, I personally know dozens of people who will buy an expansion hoping it has something to "hook" them, and drop off when Blizzard fails to set that hook. Personal anecdote, sure. But these types of players will show up the same on a spreadsheet. Which way would you prefer to explain this trend to your boss?
    Last edited by draugril; 2022-01-27 at 07:23 PM.

  3. #21023
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Monetization. That's it. The sub model is just not modern anymore and cannot be monetized as in the early days. I'd say FFXIV is the only MMORPG with a sub model that's growing and not declining.
    I'm still not seeing your solution here.

    Blizz makes big money off box sales, and sub fees. Moving to a seasonal model means no box sales, probably no sub money (if we're truly embracing the mode), and less players because the bad gameplay will never be fixed.

    Seems to me like you're just asking for Maintenance Mode and Shutdown.
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  4. #21024
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Engineering isn't a class. There is a difference between classes and professions.



    The lore of the Blademaster is that they're so quick that they appear invisible, or appear to be at more places at once. That said, two abilities is not enough to build a three-spec class around. Other classes eat up whatever other concepts you could develop for it. Such a concept would be more shallow than the Demon Hunter class concept, which was so shallow they could barely come up with two specializations for it.
    On top of that, there's orc blademasters in org who are warrior trainers. There's ever Dark Rangers who are hunter trainers.

    Let them inhale their copium all they want with their wishful thinking, well be having Tinkers very soon.
    Last edited by Varx; 2022-01-27 at 07:23 PM.

  5. #21025
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The lore of the Blademaster is that they're so quick that they appear invisible, or appear to be at more places at once. That said, two abilities is not enough to build a three-spec class around. Other classes eat up whatever other concepts you could develop for it. Such a concept would be more shallow than the Demon Hunter class concept, which was so shallow they could barely come up with two specializations for it.
    Pure opinion. Four abilities were more than enough to build a few classes, as you are always quick to point out when referencing the your views on the legitimacy of any class suggestion.

    Long story short, it is different from Warrior. Just as Hunter is different from Tinker.

    People wouldn't be asking for it otherwise.

  6. #21026
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Have you actually met any representatives of this legendary demographic, though? I haven't. It's an incredibly rosy interpretation of the data they're being presented.

    On the other hand, I personally know dozens of people who will buy an expansion hoping it has something to "hook" them, and drop off when Blizzard fails to set that hook. Personal anecdote, sure. But these types of players will show up the same on spreadsheet. Which way would you prefer to explain this trend to your boss?
    I see several of them in my guild.
    They join for a few raids at the beginning of the expansion, and maybe some in the middle. Then they slowly disappear before returning in style a month or so before the next expansion rolls around.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #21027
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Odd indeed. Considering it wouldn't even address the one problem its supposed to fix.

    Going to have to /doubt this one.
    yeah. this was months ago so i have no idea if anything has changed since then, but that was how it was when i saw it.
    you couldn't even join group with opposite faction using normal invite to group, everything had to happen through group finder apply/invite ui

    a couple other things i forgot to mention:

    main city is on border of green/black zones, shared by both factions
    huge gate style entrance with draconic/carved stone style appearance. same architecture as the structure in center of map. was one huge mega-city in the past but the part between the tower and current town is destroyed/ruins and is part of the center zone open world area

    did not see a single mention of sylvanas or tyrande but many story and quest elements were not implemented

    blue, red, and bronze zones were really barren and didn't have much content in them yet. green and black were more fleshed out. green is the first zone you enter after the intro quest/scenario (which was not implemented)

  8. #21028
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I see several of them in my guild.
    They join for a few raids at the beginning of the expansion, and maybe some in the middle. Then they slowly disappear before returning in style a month or so before the next expansion rolls around.
    That's talking to their patterns of activity. Not the psychology behind that pattern, as implied by the term "tourist." Is it the intent of those players to come in, look around, and bow out shortly thereafter from the outset, like they've planned a short vacation? Or is their intent different? I don't know a single person who has purchased an expansion just looking to do the first raid, if that. They want to get hooked on WoW again. And like you say... they slowly drift away.

    I find the term "tourist" to be an intentionally innocuous term used to explain away the failure of their game to retain their initial playerbase.

  9. #21029
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    I'm still not seeing your solution here.

    Blizz makes big money off box sales, and sub fees. Moving to a seasonal model means no box sales, probably no sub money (if we're truly embracing the mode), and less players because the bad gameplay will never be fixed.

    Seems to me like you're just asking for Maintenance Mode and Shutdown.
    Uhm there is always a big box per year for 30-40 dollars. And then you have smaller stuff that you can sell either as DLC or with the sub. As I said, ESO model and you make money money money.

    ESO has four content releases per year:

    Dungeon DLC: $10
    Expansion: $40
    Dungeon DLC: $10
    Mini-expansion: $20

    You can sub to get the DLCs for free as long as you're subbed. In the end you most likely will generate more cash than WoW does with just one expansion every two years + sub fees.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2022-01-27 at 07:32 PM.
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  10. #21030
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Pure opinion. Four abilities were more than enough to build a few classes, as you are always quick to point out when referencing the your views on the legitimacy of any class suggestion.

    Long story short, it is different from Warrior. Just as Hunter is different from Tinker.

    People wouldn't be asking for it otherwise.
    It's four abilities alongside weapons, thematics, and purpose. In the case of BMs, the purpose and thematics are already consumed by other classes, and unlike Metamorphosis, Bladestorm fits in the Warrior class just fine. For example, Blademasters are masters of 2H weapons, and so are Arms Warriors, which is why the latter has Bladestorm. So right off the bat a huge part of their purpose is eaten up by another class. What about speed and invisibility? We have Rogues and Demon Hunters that take up that aspect, and Rogues can even turn invisible and produce Shadow Clones, so what unique gameplay concept is this class bringing to the table? Can we develop even 2 specializations from such a concept?

    I'm going to say no.

    So at best, all we're doing is creating an Orc version of the Demon Hunter class; a 2-spec melee DPS/Tank class that is far more boring than Demon Hunters and doesn't even have something cool like Metamorphosis to base around. Seriously, why not just play an Orc Rogue?

    Also who's asking for it exactly? I'm sure if you conduct a poll, desire for Blademasters would be in the single digits.

  11. #21031
    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post
    Seventh force is Xel'naga. They created First Ones, best known as Protoss, the firstborn, and ascended Protoss created Six Forces and Warcraft Universe.
    I hate it when people say this bullshit, as the Xel'naga are simply Titans, but bound to 1 Universe only, cause that's the thing they did for it, making an infinite cycle of a singular plane, with Amon existing in the Void, etc etc.

    The First Ones made the 6, and balanced them out using the Pattern, the scales that bind each power, and keep them together, with Reality being its own beast, 6 = 1, but also not that? It's odd lol. But I always liked the idea that the First Ones themselves may just pop in and will everything out of existence using the Zereth's cause Azeroth's corrupted, or is gonna be unleashed or so. And if that happens, we're all fucked, so we have to aid her, and show the First Ones we're capable of anything, even surpassing the makers of Warcraft, by literally stepping OUTSIDE the pattern, and seeing the dawn of all fictional stories willed into by the First Ones, with different sources of Ephemera (Like the Source), etc being learned about and learning of multiple universes, and branches made by the Progenitors, with different Cosmologies and forms of Automa being willed by them, till we have to face them.

    I mean, we already know Zovaal was literally going to dominate the pattern VIA dominating each Zereth, which houses the very heart and origin of the Cosmic Forces, and we know forces such as Light and Shadow cannot exist without the other on a fundamental lvl, meaning if Light or Shadow claims Azeroth or dominates the 6, then everything that we know of by the First Ones would be destroyed, AKA the pattern, the very core and origin of each Force and Realm, etc.

    It's actually fucking crazy, tbh. But I'd say go all in, we're basically at Presence/Lucifer lvls of power, step a bit above that now. for 11.0, or so, since 10.0 is already a damn...well...smaller personal expac, as Zovaal, a being who serves as the Devil in Warcraft lore is getting slammed by the Players, who wield might of the very heart of Death itself, which is Eternity.

  12. #21032
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I hate it when people say this bullshit, as the Xel'naga are simply Titans, but bound to 1 Universe only, cause that's the thing they did for it, making an infinite cycle of a singular plane, with Amon existing in the Void, etc etc.

    The First Ones made the 6, and balanced them out using the Pattern, the scales that bind each power, and keep them together, with Reality being its own beast, 6 = 1, but also not that? It's odd lol. But I always liked the idea that the First Ones themselves may just pop in and will everything out of existence using the Zereth's cause Azeroth's corrupted, or is gonna be unleashed or so. And if that happens, we're all fucked, so we have to aid her, and show the First Ones we're capable of anything, even surpassing the makers of Warcraft, by literally stepping OUTSIDE the pattern, and seeing the dawn of all fictional stories willed into by the First Ones, with different sources of Ephemera (Like the Source), etc being learned about and learning of multiple universes, and branches made by the Progenitors, with different Cosmologies and forms of Automa being willed by them, till we have to face them.

    I mean, we already know Zovaal was literally going to dominate the pattern VIA dominating each Zereth, which houses the very heart and origin of the Cosmic Forces, and we know forces such as Light and Shadow cannot exist without the other on a fundamental lvl, meaning if Light or Shadow claims Azeroth or dominates the 6, then everything that we know of by the First Ones would be destroyed, AKA the pattern, the very core and origin of each Force and Realm, etc.

    It's actually fucking crazy, tbh. But I'd say go all in, we're basically at Presence/Lucifer lvls of power, step a bit above that now. for 11.0, or so, since 10.0 is already a damn...well...smaller personal expac, as Zovaal, a being who serves as the Devil in Warcraft lore is getting slammed by the Players, who wield might of the very heart of Death itself, which is Eternity.
    What are you reading into to come to any of these conclusions?

  13. #21033
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    .... and later imprisoned in Uldir.
    I mean that would imply ghuun had any freedom

    He was a lab specimen

  14. #21034
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    C-tier MMORPG? You know that ESO is next to WoW one of the Top 4/5 MMORPGs on the market? Pretty sure ESO is generating more cash than WoW solely because of the business model and their atrocious loot boxes.
    Wow is about 10% of Activision's 5 billion yearly revenue. That's still 5 times higher than Zenimax's yearly revenue, and that's the entire company. If ESO is the third biggest fantasy mmo that's only because there's a huge gap between it & wow.

  15. #21035
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    What are you reading into to come to any of these conclusions?
    I am not sure what I read.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  16. #21036
    People arguing over classes is dumb. The next class is obvious. It is a dragon themed class with a tinker spec with piloting a mecha-dragon, a necromancer spec where you raise frostwyrms and a bard spec where you tell epic lore of the dragonflights through song to aid your allies.

  17. #21037
    Quote Originally Posted by therewillbedragons View Post
    cross faction is in. group through group finder only. could talk in party/raid chat but not in open world or public channels. no xfaction guilds.
    If that's the case then this system will be useless. I hope you're wrong because Cross-Faction implementation in 10.0 is more important for me than its theme/setting.

  18. #21038
    Quote Originally Posted by Therougetitan View Post
    People arguing over classes is dumb. The next class is obvious. It is a dragon themed class with a tinker spec with piloting a mecha-dragon, a necromancer spec where you raise frostwyrms and a bard spec where you tell epic lore of the dragonflights through song to aid your allies.
    Awesome, I want it!

    Edit: Clearly it will be called Draconic Tinkmanceard

  19. #21039
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    If that's the case then this system will be useless. I hope you're wrong because Cross-Faction implementation in 10.0 is more important for me than its theme/setting.
    Its pretty much fits with Blizzards usual design decisions though, i can totally see it happening.


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  20. #21040
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Very excellent observation, though if I may add, I maintain that the best way to adequately represent the seventh force isn't the summation of all of the forces (i.e. reality), but rather the underlying Hegelian sublation between all of them which permits reality to function. Perhaps it would be sensible, and it could arguably demonstrate more of the overlap between different forces—this would explain, for instance, how delving too deep into Arcane magic invariably leads to the Fel. It would be a very interesting way of bringing in the kind of philosophy they're trying to otherwise portray—they're actually making an interesting attempt at what would be otherwise an unconventional quality of profundity for such an otherwise traditional fantasy setting with few truly unique or surreal elements (i.e. Curse of Flesh).

    I'd love to see the whole geometry plot hook explored if they simply made more of an effort to integrate the philosophy into the story and made absolutely, positively certain to do as much research as possible into the theory. It would be very fascinating to see a story like that, and it would fit with some of the more out-there elements in WoW's lore (again, Curse of Flesh).
    It's 2 separate songs, prolly one whole song of the 6, and another one of Reality. It does say "The song of the First Ones must not end", and we have "her voice will awaken the others", so one song keeps something asleep (Like Azeroth, which could be the heart of Reality, and the power within it is more than a Titan, but a power that connects in the unionization of all things), and the other keeps the balance of the 6 in tact, a song that the First Ones made for their first specimens of their language (Which is the 6...)

    So, it DOES seem like one song is for the intersections, and the OTHER is for the heart of the pattern itself, which could be why the Forces themselves are so antagonistic, and their embodiments so jealous of one another.

    Makes me wonder...what are the Light's Pantheons akin to? The "Divine Council" or something?

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