Do you think Shadowlands was better or worse for the Warcraft lore as a whole?

[ParanoiD84]

Cant think of a single thing that's good about Sl from a story perspective.

[OwenBurton]

Not only was it worse, it has irreparably damaged the old lore to such an extent that it'll likely never be able to be fixed. What's worse is that the team has done this damage while opting to gaslight players (i.e.: stating the story played out as intended; claiming very obvious retcons were the truth the whole time; etc.) and trying to shift blame to Afrasiabi. While I think we can all understand that Afrasiabi may have been pushing the Sylvanas becoming evil angle (although I think the few people stating that he was using this as a vehicle to attack women are likely stretching), the fact that they've tried to play it off as it still being his fault when he's been off the Warcraft team for around 4 years at this point is an incredible degree of dishonesty; the Burning of Teldrassil was not the problem, the subsequent story is.

I don't understand why they don't seem to react to all this negativity. I mean, how can Steve not notice this level of backlash and disappointment from the player base? Are all the other Blizzard developers and employees likewise ignorant?

[Axaron]

It doesn't really matter. Warcraft lore has always been 75% terrible but interesting in the Marvel/DC... sense occasionally. Continuity and canonization hasn't been a part of the schtick since the RTS days and even then the writing was questionable at best. Folks are just very nostalgic for it. The best storylines in WoW are found in the subtext and sidequests as with most video games.

But yeah this expansion is particularly embarrassing and adolescent, particularly in 9.1 and 9.2

[Khaza-R]

I don't understand why they don't seem to react to all this negativity. I mean, how can Steve not notice this level of backlash and disappointment from the player base? Are all the other Blizzard developers and employees likewise ignorant?

I doubt they are all completely oblivious but the more vocal ones seem like the types to entrench themselves in echo chambers (Twitter) and label anyone who disagrees with them or has opposing opinions as being "problematic".

I am sure there's a few devs who do care even if they don't post about it.

[VinceVega]

Shadowlands was definetly worse...

But lets be honest. Wacraft lore has never been... the best. They tried to flesh it out since vanilla but nothing ever made sense.

W3 just had the easy why by working with a basically blank slate. Everything after that had to cope somehow with this mess.

Did i enjoy it? Definetly. Am i under some kind of illusion that is some kind of Brandon Sanderson type lore/story. No. It is a game and always was a game.
Could they have done better? Maybe. Look what ESO and Swtor did. I don't say FF14 because i just cringe too much so was never able to go through the story completly. *fistpumpstheair*

[VinceVega]

I doubt they are all completely oblivious but the more vocal ones seem like the types to entrench themselves in echo chambers (Twitter) and label anyone who disagrees with them or has opposing opinions as being "problematic".

I am sure there's a few devs who do care even if they don't post about it.

You mean like this page if someone says the liked SL?^^
This whole page is an echochamber.... no difference but the viewpoint

[Demsi]

For sure, i think demystifying death was a huge mistake in general

[Khaza-R]

You mean like this page if someone says the liked SL?^^
This whole page is an echochamber.... no difference but the viewpoint

Perhaps. Twitter is a well documented echo chamber that's actually getting worst as time goes on. As for these forums, I can't say how accurately it constitutes what the average player thinks of Shadowlands. But conversely, I have never seen a single medium, be it WoWhead, Reddit, official forums, etc where Shadowlands has received praise.

So perhaps a duck is just a duck and Shadowlands is just bad and disliked.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I don't understand why they don't seem to react to all this negativity. I mean, how can Steve not notice this level of backlash and disappointment from the player base? Are all the other Blizzard developers and employees likewise ignorant?

Some people think it's because they have their heads up their asses, though I'm not sure if this is the case. I would guess that places in which negative feedback is given there's a larger degree of toxic posts as well. Consider that many of the players who have issues with the story have been giving feedback for years at this point, only to seemingly be ignored due to lack of developer interaction (note: they may not be ignored, but the lack of transparency and communication by the devs make it seem as such). Players being ignored likely only breeds anger and apathy, hence many posts being either aggressive or flippant. It's possible the feedback they receive is, more or less, filtered by virtue of them avoiding places that are (mostly) critical of them for that reason.

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You mean like this page if someone says the liked SL?^^
This whole page is an echochamber.... no difference but the viewpoint

I wouldn't say this place is an echo chamber, and wouldn't say that a group having similar views makes something an echo chamber. This thread, and the forum more generally, is not insulated from dissent, which is the main feature of an echo chamber. If someone came in here to say "I actually quite like that they tried to save Sylvanas' character from being disposed of prematurely and look forward to what they do with her" or "The 9.2 cinematic with Arthas was really cool and gave me chills when I heard the WotLK music in the background"(or any other less popular opinion on the story), nothing would happen to them. They wouldn't be banned or removed or have any consequences other than a few people thinking they have a trash taste in story (and I think we've even had some people dissent within this thread, though the overwhelming opinion of the story is negative).

[Kharnath]

First expac I've ever dedicated to pure PvP because I have no urge to learn about the PvE (story) it's just not what Warcraft is to me. In saying that I don''t have high hopes if the same people whom made SL will be making the next expac. I get more enjoyment out of PvPing and watching YouTube videos talking about how bad ABC123 in Shadowlands is, I'm not saying I agree with everything in every video but they are to me more entertaining to watch than SL PvE is to play and I dunno about the rest of you but I just seek entertainment I find personally entertaining.

[A Chozo]

Better, obviously. Warcraft lore has always been a shitshow and the old one got stale after we killed all the gods. Shadowlands is simply introducing a new "mythos" or whatever it's called.

People who disagree are in delusion because of rose tinted glasses but it is clear to anyone that the lore is a shitshow regardless so Shadowlands couldn't make it go lower.

For example, at the same time that the Jailer is somehow as bad as Deathwing as being an antagonist, Shadowlands also introduced cool characters like Sire Denathrius.

[Soon-TM]

For example, at the same time that the Jailer is somehow as bad as Deathwing as being an antagonist, Shadowlands also introduced cool characters like Sire Denathrius.

One of the very few interesting characters, and they effectively disposed of him during the entry raid already, while story cancers such as Anduin or especially Sylvanas were given more and more screen time.

It's as if the sole purpose of SL's story was to show Sylv's psychoanalysis sessions to us, along with some cosmic mumbo jumbo in the background as window dressing. They couldn't even be arsed to put some thought into it, as evidenced by the numerous plot holes.

[OwenBurton]

Some people think it's because they have their heads up their asses, though I'm not sure if this is the case. I would guess that places in which negative feedback is given there's a larger degree of toxic posts as well. Consider that many of the players who have issues with the story have been giving feedback for years at this point, only to seemingly be ignored due to lack of developer interaction (note: they may not be ignored, but the lack of transparency and communication by the devs make it seem as such). Players being ignored likely only breeds anger and apathy, hence many posts being either aggressive or flippant. It's possible the feedback they receive is, more or less, filtered by virtue of them avoiding places that are (mostly) critical of them for that reason.

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I wouldn't say this place is an echo chamber, and wouldn't say that a group having similar views makes something an echo chamber. This thread, and the forum more generally, is not insulated from dissent, which is the main feature of an echo chamber. If someone came in here to say "I actually quite like that they tried to save Sylvanas' character from being disposed of prematurely and look forward to what they do with her" or "The 9.2 cinematic with Arthas was really cool and gave me chills when I heard the WotLK music in the background"(or any other less popular opinion on the story), nothing would happen to them. They wouldn't be banned or removed or have any consequences other than a few people thinking they have a trash taste in story (and I think we've even had some people dissent within this thread, though the overwhelming opinion of the story is negative).

Indeed, I have been a long-time admirer of Warcraft's lore, which was unique for the fantasy franchise. Some say that Warcraft was too "traditional" - and yet I think it was the first to invert or subvert many traditional fantasy elements - the very fact that night elves were portrayed as more peaceful and balanced than the lighter-skinned blood elves, for example, or the orcs and trolls and even some Forsaken portrayed as viable "heroes" and "protagonists" instead of the stereotypical villains. Even the reverse of "gods" and "titans" - in the case of the malevolent Old Gods and the benevolent Pantheon - is actually a fairly original development.

Even going to Wowhead (one of my previously favorite sites) has been dull and depressing these days (although this was the one positive bit of news I very recently noticed there):
https://www.wowhead.com/news/support...-bundle-326392

I honestly don't know how Blizzard will come back from this current tragic situation; even without the real-life scandals, Blizzard would still be in a very unfavorable spot with perception right now given the state of the story. The next expansion would have to be significantly better than Wrath of the Lich King to cause most players to even consider continuing being part of the game.

[geco]

Many say that the history of Wacraft was always bad.
And well, they're right, but what they don't realize is that Wacraft is like a game of D&D. It's not a good story.
It is a well told story with good characters.

WFA and SL. They kill those good characters and tell the story wrong to the point that at certain points in the plot each one understands something different.

[Rockefellah]

It had / has good potential but was poorly executed.

Going as far as Wotlk there were cookie crumbles, which were not or poorly utilized.

Instead things were used/reconnect that were not hinted at. It feels like blizz wanted to exploit the 'mystery', but misunderstood how highly the lore consistency is valued by its playerbase.

[Tanaria]

Shadowlands is what happens when Danuser is let loose on the story and isn't reigned in.

[Shadowferal]

Everything that I've read regarding lore...story..
...Shadowlands wouldn't have been a direction I would've gone into beyond a high level rumor that I would push for into end-level expansions for as long as I could. It certainly wouldn't have been something I'd have explored now unless I thought the game needed an ending. And I don't believe that's the case today.

[Finlandia WOAT]

It's kinda lame we uncovered the mystery of life after death in Azeroth and it's yet another series of connected quest hubs existentially threatened by a big bad with vague motivations. On paper the lore itself is...fine, I guess, I'm not into the cosmology, but it's not as if the story has been close to good in years, another layer on the shit heap.

The biggest problem is the pinning the Jailer as the guy behind everything bad that had ever happened on Azeroth....why? Because you were so unconvinced of his threat you had to tack on the menace of other, actually compelling antagonists? Also we could have beaten the Jailer by blowing up the Forge of Souls....shame Sylvanas didn't mention that.

[OwenBurton]

I doubt they are all completely oblivious but the more vocal ones seem like the types to entrench themselves in echo chambers (Twitter) and label anyone who disagrees with them or has opposing opinions as being "problematic".

I am sure there's a few devs who do care even if they don't post about it.

Actually, I think most Warcraft fans even on Twitter are repulsed by the state of the story and company right now. I mean, i heard that Christie Golden was even threatened there by someone with strong feelings for Sylvanas (I'm not sure whether they were her fans or haters).

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

No expansion did as much damage to Warcraft plot and lore than Shadowlands, and this by far.

By trying to bring everything back from Warcraft 3 to the Jailer and the Shadowlands and with his terrible storytelling, Danuser did unimaginable damage to the franchise.